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BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - uviden

Please, Please!

I have had my car "broken" into with a scanner, the insurance company will no pay, as they say: there is no violence and force used to get into the vehicle!!

Is there any reference to court cases or other cases like mine, surely there must be something called electronic violence?

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Avant

That wasn't Aviva was it? My Octavia was stolen last January by thieves breaking into the house and stealing a set of keys. With the methods they have of bypassing locks there was no evidence of forced entry to the house (or of course the car) and Aviva more or less accused me of fraud.

Fortunately Thames Valley Police were on my side and after several weeks Aviva were persuaded: the car was subsequently recovered by the police.

See if you can get the police and your insurance company to talk to each other.

Our legal adviser Lucy may be able to help you.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - ianhad2
Got a slight problem here. How can they use a scanner to get into your car?
All a scanner can do is read a transmission. If it can then re-transmit the code, so what? All modern vehicles security systems, or at least, Thatcham approved ones, have rolling code, so the same code is never used twice.
I worked at the Thatcham Testing site, and have worked for a security manufacturers.
BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - uviden

I drove into London, a guy sort of waved me into a free space on a yellow line a Sunday morning. He hold a "phone/scanner" to his head all a long, but we never saw him talk into it. He must have recorded when I locked the car, I was only 3 meters from him. 4 hours later my boot was empty. The car and boot was still locked on our return to the car. I asked around, no one have seen anything suspicious, and naturally the space I was in was just out of the CCTV!

Is BMW 1 series locks Thatcham approved.

This is the 4th time it has happend to me in London, different cars though!

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - LucyBC
They are querying it because they either think insurance fraud may be involved or you have not kept reasonable control of the keys. Having had it happen 4 times is likely to increase their suspicions.

Insurers can refuse to pay out when someone is careless with the keys but the Ombudsman has found for the insured on many occasions.

The relevant legal basis for cases are summarised at:

tinyurl.com/c34pd

Use the search box to find the individual complaints.

My personal favourite is 31/4 on this page:
tinyurl.com/2w5gy5o

31/2 on the same page is not relevant to this thread but is also good value.

Edited by LucyBC on 07/11/2010 at 09:38

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - nortones2
My personal favourite is 31/4 on this page: tinyurl.com/2w5gy5o 31/2 on the same page is not relevant to this thread but is also good value.



I also like 31/5: £12,000 personal accident claim for a deceased parrot! The mind boggles.
BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - LucyBC

I also like 31/5: £12,000 personal accident claim for a deceased parrot! The mind boggles.

Missed the parrot one - indeed a gem.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - a900ss

This is the 4th time it has happend to me in London, different cars though!

4 times!!!! I'm sorrythat is just crazy. I'm glad the insurance company aren't just paying out, this is why premiums are going up and up.

People need to take responsibility to minimize risks, if it's happened to you 4 times, you don't appear to be helping matters or learning from your many previous occurances.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Armitage Shanks {p}

So what can OP do to stop this and what is there to learn? I understand that there are devices that can block your locking action/signal and one thus thinks one's car is locked but it isn't. The least one can do is check that the car actually is locked before walking away

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Collos25

Got a slight problem here. How can they use a scanner to get into your car?

Obviously not aware of the new generation of scanners shown on German television it does not matter what make of car they could get into it change the ecu to accept any key they wished turned any tracker unit off .In other words you have no chance if they want your car it did not even have to switched on.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - LucyBC

It appears not to be a scanner but a jammer - much more simple to execute. The device blocks the locking signal leaving the car unlocked.

See the following from The Register on21 Sept 2010

tinyurl.com/2cvy4ko

Thieves jam key-fob lock signals in mystery car thefts

Tech-savvy blaggers lift swag leaving windows intact

Surrey police are exploring the theory that a gang of car thieves are jamming central locking systems to make it easier to steal goods from cars.

The theory arose after one a witness reported that a man used an electronic device to prevent doors from locking when he parked his Lexus at a local Sainsbury's. Apparently the suspect was lurking in the car park and wearing unusual warm clothes for the season, something that made him stand out like a sore thumb, according to police. The motorist discovered that his car lock would not engage whereupon the suspect walked off seconds before the lock mysteriously started working again.

Inspector Richard Haycock told local newspapers that the possible use of the car lock jammers would help explain a recent spate of thefts from vehicles that have occurred without leaving any signs of forced entry.

“We do get quite a lot of car crime in the borough where there’s no sign of a break-in and items have been taken from an owner’s car,” Inspector Haycock said. “It’s difficult to get in to a modern car without causing damage and we get a reasonable amount of people who do not report any.

“It is a possibility that central locking jamming is being used,” he added.

Devices that block the frequency used by a car owner’s key fob might be used to thwart an owner's attempts to lock a car, leaving it open for waiting thieves. A quick search of the internet shows that devices offering to jam car locks are easily available for around $100. Effectiveness at up to 100m is claimed.

Crime stats published in August record 227 incidents of vehicle crime in Elmbridge area of Surrey over the previous three months. Police are planning to increase surveillance in a bid to reduce car crime and, with luck, identify the light-fingered car jammer fiends. ®

Same problem in Kent (Kent Police press release):

KENT Police are warning the public to be vigilant when using remote key fobs to lock their vehicles following a recent spate of thefts.

Car parks are a target for the thieves, who wait for motorists to leave their vehicles and use devices such as remote doorbell systems to block the signal from their key fobs, before stealing the vehicle or valuables left inside.

Although vehicle immobilisers automatically engage, usually after a few seconds, until this time the vehicles remain insecure and vulnerable to thieves.

Det Insp Paul Cordier said: "An increase in radio transmitting devices means that signals from one device may counteract signals from another.

"This can result in remote locking signals for cars not operating, leaving cars insecure and vulnerable to car thieves.

“Whilst most modern cars use flashing headlights or indicators to show that the vehicle is secure, many motorists simply point and press their remote and walk away without physically checking.

“We strongly recommend that drivers try their door handles to check their car is locked before leaving it."

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Collos25

Your five years out of date the new generaion of units do no even need the owner or keys anywhere near.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Armitage Shanks {p}

Sorry Andy - who is 5 years out of date? OP, the police or who?

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - LucyBC

I don't think a scanner would work for the reason ianhad2 outlines and he seems to have expertise in the area. Professional locksmiths have problems getting into cars fitted with Thatcham approved immobilisers.

However I could see that blocking or jamming the "lock" signal would work as a much more simple process and that seems to be what is suggested to be happening by Kent and Surrey police.

Insurers will no doubt contend that if you did not check the car was locked then they will not recompense you.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - a900ss

So what can OP do to stop this and what is there to learn?

Well if this is the 4th time I wouldn't be leaving valuables in my car for them to be stolen. I'd also leave all the gloveboxes and cubby holes open so that potential theives can see that there is nothing inside the car worth nicking.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - SteveLee
Got a slight problem here. How can they use a scanner to get into your car? .

The first generation of BMW's keyless system was fatally flawed, the tumbling codes could be predicted, a scanner, a computer with suitable software and transmitter could be used to steal BMWs. PSION PDAs were capable of doing the job in one unit. I believe Mr Beckham lost two brand new X5s this way. A software upgrade fixed the problem - how many BMWs vulnerable to this type of attack are still out there?
BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - barney100

Bloke i know used to loop a large chain around his steering wheel and secured it with a large padlock....his car was never stolen but I reckon if thieves reaaly want your car they'll get it no matter ehat you do.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - bonzo dog

Whilst a knowledgable & determined thief will steal you car no matter what you do, you can reduce the odds of him selecting yours by using a both visible & difficult to remove deterrent like a steering lock or crook lock.

But the OP has not had his car nicked but broken into & valuables removed, Again, a knowledgable & determined thief will be able to access your boot & I guess there are a number of ways to by-pass locking devices electronically.

But ..... the thing I would be thinking of, if I was an insurance co is this ...... how did they know to target your boot out of all the others in the street / car park?

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - madf

But ..... the thing I would be thinking of, if I was an insurance co is this ...... how did they know to target your boot out of all the others in the street / car park?

Easy

"a guy sort of waved me into a free space on a yellow line a Sunday morning. He hold a "phone/scanner" to his head all a long,"

"This is the 4th time it has happend to me in London"

Low life looks for naive punters and finds them...

You can fool some of the people all of the time...

Edited by madf on 08/11/2010 at 10:37

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Collos25

They now use a door opener which is an automatic key copier takes a second to get ino any car ,the same unit is used on the ignition the car is then connected to a lap top which down loads a new key code turns of the tracker if fitted and they drive away total time 45 secs shown on German tv ,manufacturers at first refused to accept it could be done until shown the proof .All parts are available on the internet in fact most main agents over here have them for when customers loose their keys..

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Armitage Shanks {p}

Andy - Mr Technophobe here! I follow the possibility of hacking the electronic and radio codes but what about the actual bit of metal (key) that goes in the ignition, undoes the steering lock and starts the car, or have I not read all the posts?

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - injection doc
accpording to the post they didn't steal the car they only stole bits out of it.
these plip reading scanners have been around a while and its not uncommon but insurance companies are hiding behind this and refuse to belive the technology is there but Andy is 100% correct.
I posted something about this long time ago and most seemed to think it was a wind up,.
Most manufacturese now have rolling codes so everytime a car is locked or unlocked the code changes but technology seems to keep up
BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Dutchie

Sorry about my ignorance .

I have a keyless entry I have to have the car key in my pockett and I can open the car door.When I leave the car I press a button on the door this lockes the door.I always check the door if it is locked.Is this also a system which is open to a scanner?

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - jc2

The latest systems use an electroniccally operated steering lock(solenoid) not a key.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - skittles
They now use a door opener which is an automatic key copier takes a second to get ino any car ,the same unit is used on the ignition the car is then connected to a lap top which down loads a new key code turns of the tracker if fitted and they drive away total time 45 secs shown on German t

I heard of these devices but how can they work? Modern car imobilizers are part of the CPU, they have 1,000,000,000's of permutations, it take for ever for a lap top to crack I tryed to get a spare Alfa key and I need a new key from Alfa and 30 minutes on a computer to program one

Edited by skittles on 22/11/2010 at 22:34

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Collos25

Dream on, takes micro seconds to retrieve the code from the car ecu with the correct program.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - skittles

Dream on, takes micro seconds to retrieve the code from the car ecu with the correct program.

So why can I not find anyone to do it?

Tel no and addresses of these people with equipment to decode ECUs in micro seconds please

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Collos25

"I heard of these devices but how can they work?"

The reason you cannot find anyone to retrieve this information is because its new ,its illegal to posses,why would a normal law abiding citizen want it .The German TUV have given car manufacturers I think 6 months to come up with a solution.

This week on one of the news channels a report of a combined effort of the German and Polish police found a wharehouse and a field full of expensive cars some from the UK that had been stolen in this way,the cars were ready to be shipped to the far east.Believe you me it was frightening to watch how quick they can make a car disappear.I soppose if its eleontronic and digital there will always be someone who is always one step ahead,once upon a time the Germans thought the "Enigma" was unbreakable.

Edited by Andy Bairsto on 24/11/2010 at 11:44

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - SteveLee

Bloke i know used to loop a large chain around his steering wheel and secured it with a large padlock....his car was never stolen but I reckon if thieves reaaly want your car they'll get it no matter ehat you do.

Exactly what I used to do in my early motoring days, I'd weld an exhaust uclamp into the floor and use that as an anchor for the chain and padlock.
BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Avant

"I drove into London, a guy sort of waved me into a free space on a yellow line a Sunday morning."

The moral surely is not to accept help in finding a parking space. If a space is there, it's there, and I don't think I need someone to 'wave me in'.

Edited by Avant on 22/11/2010 at 22:21

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Armstrong Sid

"I drove into London, a guy sort of waved me into a free space on a yellow line a Sunday morning."

Did this person just happen to be standing there hoping a passing motorist would be looking for somewhere to park? I've never seen people standing by the roadside waiting to help drivers into parking spaces.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Collos25

To go back to the original problem surely insurance companies cannot use this for an excuse when it has been proven without doubt that to gain entry without keys is childs play to a professional car thief.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - LucyBC

There used to be dozens in Dublin - standing by the parking places on the Georgian Squares waving people in and offering (somewhat ominously) to "look after your car" if you paid -- no mention of the implication of what might happen if you did not.

Then they seemed to disappear in the boom-time, probably becoming euro-millionaire property developers or similar.

Given the downturn I haven't heard if they are yet back or not.

BMW 1 Series Convertible - Theft with scanner,no insurance cover?? - Avant

It's normal practice in South Africa (and possibly other parts of the world) - mostly young men desperate for a tip. Quite possibly it's their only source of income.

But it isn't normal practice in the UK, which is why one should be suspicious.