I recently took my car for a 50k mile oil service to a franchised dealer. Admittedly I had missed the one service before this as things were a little busy but thought I should now get it done. I should mention that I have always kept a close eye on the engine oil and always topped it up when needed.
The first time I drove the car after bringing it home from the service I heard a loud and disturbing noise coming from the engine so I chose not to drive it as a precaution. Called the AA and they said it most likely my crank shaft gone wrong down to there being no oil. I immediately rang the dealer and told them about it... then got the AA to transport the car to them so they could check it out.
Honda said the same thing, that the crank shaft had gone and the only real solution was to replace the whole engine at a cost of about £10k. My car is not worth a penny over £8k, hence making the car a write off.
Because I had taken the car to Honda for this precise service, and the fact that the car was in a fully working condition before I gave it to them, I hold the dealer responsible for the damage to the engine. However, they are accepting no responsibility for it and it is not covered under the insurance as it counts as a mechanical failure. How can I give a fully working car to what is supposed to be a reputable dealership and for them to return it to me in an totally unworking condition, then expect me to foot the bill for it? If they knew that there was a possibility of the car being damaged because of the work they were going to carry out then surely they should have let me know beforehand?
I have spoken to Trading Standards and they have informed me that the dealers are in breach of the "Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982" as they have failed to provide due care and attention to my car during the service and I am now entitled to have them fix or replace the vehicle. No prises for guessing what the dealer's response to this was...
Does anyone have any help or advice they can offer me on how to deal with this situation. Has anyone had a similar experience and what was the outcome. All comments and suggestions are grately appreciated.
Breaches of Name and Shame Policy removed.
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:08
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"I have spoken to Trading Standards and they have informed me that snip are in breach of the "Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982" as they have failed to provide due care and attention to my car during the service and I am now entitled to have them fix or replace the vehicle. No prises for guessing what snipresponse to this was..."
clearly you did not tell trading standards the full story. The garage are not responsible for the damage to your car, *YOU* are.
*YOU* missed the service and *YOU* therefore invalidated your warranty, and any further responsibility from Honda or the garage.
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:09
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I have always kept a close eye on the engine oil and always topped it up when needed.
Called the AA and they said it most likely my crank shaft gone wrong down to there being no oil.
The oil was low immediately after the service?
Or was the oil low before the service, but the engine managed to cling on for dear life till after the service?
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:09
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The OP states there was no oil in the car after the service.
Sounds like they either forgot to fill it or didn't put the sump plug back.
The Honda dealer must be responsible for what has happened, I would think. It's too much of a coincidence.
P.S. Naming and shaming ?
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:10
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He didnt, This is not clear. IF the car was handed back with no oil, then yes they are liable. If not its as I stated, not a leg to stand on.
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:10
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I would have thought that if the dealer had not put any oil in the engine then it wouldn't have made it off of the forecourt, let alone to the OP's home.
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:11
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andyp you would be amazed how long an engine can last with no oil in the sump before they go bang--gee i used to do it for a larf
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:11
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Called the AA and they said it most likely my crank shaft gone wrong down to there being no oil
>>>>>
>>>>>>> reads clear enough to me
NO OIL IN ENGINE
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:11
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If they knew that there was a possibility of the car being damaged because of the work they were going to carry out then surely they should have let me know beforehand?
Not so clear there.
Still its a key issue so we need to know.
Edited by Pugugly on 15/01/2010 at 21:12
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Puts me in mind of he TDCi C-Max post elsewhere, it astounds me that anyone who owns a car (especially under warrantee) expects that they can miss a service out completely (too busy) and blame others when their gamble doesn't pay off, you pays your money (or don't in this case) and takes your choice.....
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presuming the OP had only done a few miles in the car after picking it up ,
the question shoud be to them:
when the AA/RAC collected the car WAS THERE THE CORRECT EMOUGHT of oil in the sump
OP , please answer?
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Many years ago I was expecting road driven delivery of a new car.
It got some 10 mls from the garage 300 miles away - an oil seal gave way and it deposited all the oil on the road and seized.
The next new car was left out for the driver to make an early start (300 mile drive) and it was nicked off the forecourt.
The 3rd one was OK.
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Hi All,
Thanks for all your helpful replies.
Altea Ego:
The car is already 2 years out of it's warranty, but surely the dealer should have warned me of the problems before opening up my car and damaging it? If I had known the potential high risks before-hand I would have looked for alternatives.
CraigP:
The oil has never run low because I used to always top it when when it got to about half way at worst. I don't think it has ever run too low unless the dealer did something during their service.
corax:
The car is a diesal, regret ever buying one to be hones.
The AA did check the oil and it was full after the service so I don't think it could be a problem with the oil level? But then I'm no expert.
gordonbennet:
I didn't plan to save money from not having the car services, there was just so much happening that it never occured to me to take it in... and the dealer never sent me any reminders albeit that's perhaps not their job.
I'm just really unhappy with the service received from the dealer and being in the service industry myself, if I break something which was in fully working order then I put my hands up, accept responsibility and get the problem fixed. Regardless of if it is in warranty or not or what the previous service record is, if I know the potential problems then I would have explained it to the customer before work commenced so that I would then leave the decision of getting the work done or not with the customer.
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SDM
The dealer did not break the car. Nothing they did has had any effect or caused the engine to break. You have no justified or legally viable case against the dealer who serviced your car.
There are only two plausible explanations for this failure.
A manufacturing defect, or lack of servicing. Your avenue to try and get recompense for the manufacturing defect is now closed because you have an incomplete service record.
Edited by Altea Ego on 16/01/2010 at 10:33
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Admittedly I missed the one service before
Is this a diesel? If so, some of these are known to consume quite a bit of oil. If it has been left to fall low, thats a lot of extra stress to give a turbo diesel.
Edited by corax on 15/01/2010 at 21:39
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Sounds like a legal route to get this sorted, will the AA man stand up in court and say there was no oil in the sump?
Warranty is void due to negelect, your only hope is to prove to a judge that there was no oil in the vehicle immediately following servicing.
Expensive game this saving money by skipping servicing.
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Any sign of the "missing" oil anywhere? Drive, engine bay etc?
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If this service was at 50k when was the last one and what's the normal interval for your car? How many miles between this service and the noise starting? Just to confirm... you're saying the oil was up to level after the noise started?
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...There are only two plausible explanations for this failure...
There is a third.
The dealer handed the car back to the customer without any oil in it.
If that is so, it matters not if the thing has ever been serviced or not.
I don't see why so many posters are so dismissive of the notion the dealer forgot to refill the sump.
That fits squarely with the OP's story of the engine going pop soon after he left the forecourt, and with the diagnosis by the AA of no oil.
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>There is a third.
No because the original poster said
"The AA did check the oil and it was full after the service so I don't think it could be a problem with the oil level? But then I'm no expert."
The AA were the first people to see it at breakdown becuase they recovered it.,
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The OP wrote: ...The first time I drove the car after bringing it home from the service I heard a loud and disturbing noise coming from the engine...called the AA and they said it most likely my crank shaft gone wrong down to there being no oil...
AE,
I'm now confused.
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AE, it was something the OP added in his second post.
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Indeed it was, and its the vital piece of missing information.
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I wonder how much of this story is missing. There is no mention of any warning lights or whether the "loud and disturbing "noise became greater with time.
This "50K oil service"; at 50K I would expect lots more to be done than just oil (even for a Honda).
Although the dealer says they are not responsible, do they have any views as to what has happened ?
Finally £10K for a new engine is clearly not the way to go; has the OP considered a recon engine to mitigate his losses ?
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It sounds to me like you need an independent inspection to find out exactly why the engine failed.
If it failed because of wear and tear related issues, then the fact that you didn't get the 37.5k service done means you haven't a leg to stand on. You mention that you were topping up the oil - were you using the proper 0/30 fully synth oil (or 5/30 apparently, dealer tells me they guidance has just changed), and can you prove that? If you can't then you might have even less chance of assistance.
If, however, it failed because something wasn't done correctly at the service (no or wrong oil or faulty oil filter being an obvious ones) then you would have a clear case for chasing the dealer in the courts to make them pay up.
Edited by Gordon M on 16/01/2010 at 12:12
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Does anyone have any help or advice they can offer me on how to deal with this situation. Has anyone had a similar experience and what was the outcome. All comments and suggestions are grately appreciated. >>
1. i suggest you ignore comments and advice given (including mine) in response to your question, but do follow the advice by the Webmaster here:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=33...5
2. The "bar-room armchair experts" on this forum have a habit if telling those who seek consumer advice that they have little or zero chance of winning, but then a few months later express surprise when the original poster comes back to update the thread that they have actually won in court. I cannot be bothered to search these past threads, but they do exist.
3. If you want quality consumer advice, you need to talk to the real experts who deal with these type of problems daily. That means you may very well have to pay for it.
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I find it very difficult to believe that 25k on the same oil would cause a modern engine to fail outright at 50,000 miles. I once took over a 60,000 mile diesel Focus company car which had NEVER been serviced in its life, and I took it up to 100k with no further problems. A company pool car Cavalier at a former employer of mine wasn't serviced for nearly 80,000 miles and still ran.
I'm not condoning missing services, and I wouldn't expect any goodwill/help from manufacturer or dealer, but I would have thought you'd have "got away with it".
You need to get the engine inspected independently, and find out WHY it failed.
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The dealer (and I'm sure many BR regulars) would have suspicion that the OP did let the car run low on oil, the engine started to sound funny or the oil pressure light came on, they topped it up and took it straight for a service hoping the garage wouldn't notice the knocking... then show up after saying "What's this noise?"
But noone has ever done that before.
And I'm not sure how a dealership could wreck an engine that was in for servicing - allegedly full oil when it went in, and the AA man confirms full oil after (according to OP) - so no lost sump plug.
If it swims like fish, looks like fish, and smells like fish... it's probably fishy.
On the other hand maybe there is a dealership that prides itself of wrecking Honda's reputation of excellent engine building ?
Edited by Lygonos on 16/01/2010 at 21:41
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But noone has ever done that before.
A friend of mine once cooked their company van - when it siezed on dual carriageway into London, he realised the oil didn't even reach the dipstick (his responsibility to carry out basic checks as the driver).
Long story short, he just got a mate to grab him some oil PDQ and topped the van up before calling the company. I think he even got away with it.
So I can understand why the dealer and other forum members are suspicious.
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I find it very difficult to believe that 25k on the same oil would cause a modern engine to fail outright at 50 000 miles.
I agree.
Depends on bit on type of use, I suppose, but many "prestige" diesel's allow themselves to go 20K between services as a matter of routine. I don't imagine a Honda engine is any less robust.
Interesting on the age and mileage of this car (5yrs/50K) - there was a thread a while ago from someone with a CRV of very similar age which threw a rod. Honda picked up the bill even though the car's last service had been at an indie.
The problem is that if Honda did accept liability then basically they'd be saying that service intervals don't matter and you don't need to get your car serviced.
Edited by Bill Payer on 17/01/2010 at 13:24
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