The Speed Camera Thread - Volume 15 - Dynamic Dave

THREAD CLOSED, PLEASE CONTINUE DISCUSSION IN

"The Speed Camera Thread - Volume 16"


www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=18215


For the continued discussion of all things pertaining to Speed Cameras.

Volume Fourteen filled up.

This is Volume 15, 14 is closed.

There is no need to repeat anything since earlier volumes will not be deleted, although I am quite sure that this will not stop you.


--
Dynamic Dave
Back Room Moderator

mailto:dave_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
Speed cameras - Pugugly {P}

The Sunday Times - Driving



November 23, 2003

Speeding fines: A driver?s tale: 26 points and a police record



Home Office figures due early next year are expected to show a rise of around 30% in just 12 months in the numbers of drivers disqualified. The jump, insiders say, is a result of drivers reaching 12 penalty points under the totting-up system, rather than immediate disqualifications for drunk or dangerous driving.
The rapid rise is causing consternation among legal experts who know the law is based on widespread acceptance. If it catches too many people, and they think they have been penalised unreasonably, it becomes unenforceable.

Richard North is a typical victim. From his BMW 5-series to his elegant country home North is the epitome of respectability. So it surprised his neighbours when police pulled up on his drive in July with an arrest warrant for non-payment of speeding fines. He has made four court appearances in less than three years and he has accumulated 26 penalty points on his driving licence. ?I am an ordinary man who is being criminalised,? he says.

For years, North says, he has driven with an unblemished record. All that changed with speed cameras. As a consultant to the European parliament he flies regularly to Brussels and Strasbourg. The drive to and from his Yorkshire home to one of the London airports or the Channel tunnel terminal is a 700-mile round trip, often at night or early in the morning. ?It is a long journey but if I don?t do it I don?t see my family,? he says.

The last time North had an accident was when he clipped a parked car in 1976. But then, three years ago, he reached nine points under the totting-up system and found himself fighting for his licence. Within months he had appeared in front of the judge on four separate occasions in Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Derby and Barnsley to plead not to be disqualified. Twice he escaped. Each time, a further speeding offence landed him back in court. On the third occasion he was banned for 12 months, reduced to three on appeal. When his patience ran out he complained to the West Yorkshire s************ partnership there were too many cameras and in the wrong places, a claim the partnership strongly denies. He was given the brush-off. After an acrimonious correspondence he was told by the partnership?s PR manager, Philip Gwynne, in an e-mail: "Would I be right in thinking you?re a close-minded (sic) bigot who wouldn't know the truth if it bit him in the a***?"

It seems that while North feels criminalised, others have sympathy. At his last court appearance in Barnsley, North persuaded magistrates he was indeed a responsible driver. The court took the unusual step of imposing a driving ban to run concurrent with the ban another court had imposed just two weeks earlier.

?I know it sounds like an excuse,? says North, ?but I am just a hard-working professional who drives a lot of miles. Speed cameras




Ho Hum - pasted in full for Ian (CT) and others.
Speed cameras - Bromptonaut
Why does the ST describe someone trying to make a point as a "victim". I am of course assuming a consultant working internationally has the intellectual capacity to learn from his own experience.
Speed cameras - Mark (RLBS)
If they are so confident that driving over the speed limit is responsible for 30% [sic] of accidents, then how do they justify not using that certainty to ensure prosecution of the offending driver for careless driving or whatever in 30% of those incidents ?

Presumably if they are so sure that they are right that the speed cameras are appearing everywhere, then their evidence should be sufficient ?

Or is their evidence strong enough for them to justify themselves to each other, but sadly at a level that any court would reject ?
Speed cameras - helicopter
Anybody see the report in the Torygraph today about 165 speed cameras likely to be removed under plans to site them only at accident blackspots where there have been at least four collisions resulting in death or serious injury or eight collisions involving personal injury within three years.
Where is this miracle happening.

The Scottish Executive seem to have got it sorted. Maybe they\'ve raised enough to pay for their Parliament (or am I just an old cynic.)
Speed cameras - smokie
The Times today carries a story which asks you to report any poorly sited cameras to the dept of transport.
Speed cameras - smokie
Sorry, should have made that clearer - the DoT have asked for poorly sited cameras to be reported to them...
Speed cameras - matt35 {P}
Mark,
One answer may be that they cannot prove thier statistics?
As posted in a reply to PoloGirl today - the most comprehensive study on accidents by the Transport Research Laboratory - TRL323 - is only available in hard copy or to download in pdf form for £25-00 - source is the safespeed website which has a lot on the subject.
It is surely nonsense that a report, paid for by US to a Government department, should not be available free in the interest of road safety?
Speed cameras - Robbie
There appears to be an inverse correlation regarding the number of speed cameras and detection rates for crime.

I glanced at the performance tables for police force detection rates, which were published in the Telegraph a few weeks ago, and I noticed that some of the worst performers were the Lincolnshire and North Wales forces, both of which have absurdly high numbers of cameras.

It would be interesting to do a more scientific analysis and see if there is a definite correlation. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find the performance figures in order to do this.
Speed cameras - Flat in Fifth
" One answer may be that they cannot prove thier statistics?
As posted in a reply to PoloGirl today - the most comprehensive study on accidents by the Transport Research Laboratory - TRL323 is only available in hard copy or to download in pdf form for £25-00 - source is the safespeed website which has a lot on the subject.

It is surely nonsense that a report, paid for by US to a Government department, should not be available free in the interest of road safety?"


The issue of whether the report should be free or not is irrelevant unless we are discussing freedom of information which is a wider issue and not particularly related to motoring.

If the report were not freely available, albeit at a price, then I might agree with you that it's contents are being surpressed, but clearly they are not.

What amazes me is that this TRL 323 is the most comprehensive study tosh is still being bandied about. NO IT IS NOT THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE STUDY!!!!!!!!

The project of which report TRL 323 is part of the output was NOT designed to give statistically true figures of accident causation. The project task was a study of how to collect data. The study used a sample of accidents from a sample of areas in order to test the data collection system. This was not a statistically representative sample of all accidents and therefore it is not possible to make general comments about accident causation in anything other than that unrepresentative small sample of accidents which happened to be selected.

The accident classification system which this report devised is being used to look at more representative samples and draw conclusions which have a better chance of being representative than the snapshot taken in TRL323.

Why not take a look at.

TRL 421 "The effects of drivers? speed on the frequency of road accidents" is more recent than 323 and totally relevant. Not going to quote statistics but the project examined 300 sections of road, made ~2 million observations re speed and questioned 10,000 drivers. One result of this independent research project , the faster the traffic moves on average in a particular set of circumstances, the more crashes there are. The consequences of the accident tends to rise with the speed and weight of the vehicles involved.

Or even

TRL 474 "Police fatal road accidents report phase II" Again this did not attempt to find a causative factor for accidents but was a report in setting up a database to collate police reports after fatal accidents and then apply a classification system which could be used in conjunction with Stats19, the DETR accident database which is very limited in its analytical possibilities. But nevertheless the frequency tables make interesting reading.

For example much bigger population of results than in 323, BUT the results are skewed by deliberately selecting accidents at the more severe end of the spectrum. Just as a taster around 36%+ plus of these accidents have as a major causation factor careless/reckless driving. Over 30% have XS speed as a major causation factor, these are as decided by the AIB officer during his investigation.

Noting this it is interesting that the message has changed from one third of all accidents to approximately one third of serious accidents.

If, like me, you accept the independance of the TRL in its work eg report TRL323, then surely you must also accept the information contained within the reports I've mentioned as representative. Reports again freely available, for a fee I admit.

Now don't get me wrong, I hate cameras and the way they are being applied in many cases with a passion. In some cases cameras can and do work, but in the majority they do not. If you want to complain about information being withheld then complain about how it's impossible to get information out of the S-camera partnerships.

One SCP has a target of £7m of revenue from fines. How I know is my business, but unfortunately the information is not officially in the pulic domain.

\rant mode off

Sorry about that I'll be better after a lie down.
Speed cameras - madf
"But then, three years ago, he reached nine points under the totting-up system and found himself fighting for his licence. Within months he had appeared in front of the judge on four separate occasions in Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Derby and Barnsley to plead not to be disqualified."

The point of human intelligence is that it allows one to learn from one's mistooks..

The gentleman concerned has obviously got a mental block as far as speeding is concerned and altho'I am no lover of speed cameras - yes too many badly sited ones- he appears to learn nuffing so gets wot he disserfs..

Consultants? hmm my opinion of them was low.. tell you what to do when they can't do it themsleves -(see a certain Mr W Hague MP,,,,wgo designed a sistem wot could not elect a leeder if it tryed:-)
madf
Speed cameras - SR
I don't understand why, when there are so many measures to make cameras more and more visible, more and more people are being caught because they didn't notice the big grey box with the red-and-yellow stripes on it (where I live, anyway - I'm sure colour schemes vary), or pay any attention to the signs warning of the speed limit in force and the presence of cameras.

Makes me wonder if they would be paying anough attention to notice that child about to wander off the pavement.....
Speed cameras - PR {P}
As regards the \"one third of accidents caused by speed\" lie. I got this gem from Cleveland Polices Q A site....

A TRL report has stated that only 7% of crashes are due to excessive speed, when Government publicity says speed is a contributory factor in about a third of all crashes. Why is the Government so obsessed with speeding when it is bad driving that is the real problem?


The TRL report A New System for Recording Contributory Factors in Road Accident is about contributory factors in accidents in the context of a new accident data recording system being brought into STATS 19. Speed as a contributory factor is shown in the report to occur in about 7% of accidents, whilst we normally quote about one third. This apparent disparity can be explained. Excessive speed as a causation factor may be coded for any one of the following reasons:


Excessive speed for the limit


Excessive speed for the vehicle (e.g. LGV)


Excess speed for the conditions


Although speed was not always shown as a factor in the pilot schemes, which is what the report is about, speed is clearly a factor when the causes are shown as any of the following:


Sudden braking


Careless/reckless driving


Following too close


Behaviour ? in a hurry


Loss of control of a vehicle


Poor overtaking, etc.


Adding up these factors the report effectively confirms the ?One third? figure

So basically, its pink fluffy dice! Check out other such whoppers at www.clevelandsafetycameras.co.uk/questions.html

Particularly interesting are one sided scare tactics, like if you go to court you could be fined £1000, no mention of you could win!!
Speed cameras - smokie
It is a silly suggestion that because someone might inadvertently speed past a camera, then they are not concentrating enough to see a child on a pavement...

More and more people are being caught because of the proliferation of cameras, and cameras being sited for maximum revenue rather than safety.
Speed cameras - Bromptonaut

Home Office figures due early next year are expected to show
a rise of around 30% in just 12 months in the
numbers of drivers disqualified. The jump, insiders say, is a result
of drivers reaching 12 penalty points under the totting-up system, rather
than immediate disqualifications for drunk or dangerous driving.


According to Peter Oborne writing in tonight's London Standard former transport minister Peter Bottomley is presently being driven by his wife for precisely this reason!!!
Speed cameras - BobbyG
Noticed today on the M8 between Edinburgh and Glasgow, where the roadworks were at Bathgate junction, the roadworks have been removed but the speed cameras are still there!!!

Wonder if they are still on?

Wonder if they are still collecting revenue...

Definitely NO "50" signs anywhere !!

Or am I just being a cynic..
Speed cameras - glowplug
I'm waiting for the time when in court over driving without due care a drivers says - "I didn't see them I was watching my speed!". It's just got to happen!

How many drivers who 'never break the law', park dangerously, illegally, don't buy a ticket? Never check their lights before setting off, drive around in clear weather with their front/rear fogs on or even drank under age, went back to the shop to tell them they've been undercharged?

See a pattern here?

Not in my back yard!

Steve.
Speed cameras - BobbyG
On a slightly different note, I have now found myself checking my rear view mirror after I pass a camera, to see if anyone else has been caught by it.
Actually wasn't aware I did it until today - but am I the only one who does this? Or do speed cameras mean that you have a line of traffic passing through them but all the drivers looking behind them??
Speed cameras - smokie
I see today that a speedcam case against Christine Hamilton has been thrown out as she couldn't be sure whether she or Neil were driving.
Speed cameras - SR
"It is a silly suggestion that because someone might inadvertently speed past a camera, then they are not concentrating enough to see a child on a pavement..."

Why, exactly, is this silly? If they're being observant enough to see other potential hazards why don't they see the speed limit signs, the camera warning signs, and the brightly-coloured cameras?

On the recurring theme of statistics, has anyone investigated what proportion of accidents are categorised as caused by "insufficent speed", and therefore what positive effect an increase in vehicle speeds would have on safety......?
Speed cameras - Flat in Fifth
On the recurring theme of statistics, has anyone investigated what proportion of accidents are categorised as caused by "insufficent speed", and therefore what positive effect an increase in vehicle speeds would have on safety......?

Not sure what you mean by insufficient speed?

I would suspect that such an accident would be coded

Precipitating factor
4 Failed to avoid vehicle or object in carriageway

plus causation factor
12 Failed to judge another person's path or speed

If anyone wants the full list of precipitation and causation factors then I can post / mail.


Speed cameras - Phil I

If anyone wants the full list>

Yes please FiF if not too much trouble. Tks in Adv. Phil I
Speed cameras - matt35 {P}
FiF,
Me too - thanks.
Matt35
Causation list - Flat in Fifth
Re: Full list.

OK gents will take me a while to type it up.

As the Governor of California once said "I'll be back!"
Causation list - Flat in Fifth
Right here goes, long post hope the formatting comes out OK.

Sorry about the cynical comment on causation factor No54 couldn't resist.

Any questions don't ask me!

There are some odd and / or specific categories which raise some questions I know. Equally, in my humble opinion, one can think of categories that are not included and the number of categories particularly in relation to pedestrians / cyclists definitely seem a bit sparse.

Don't blame me I report as found. Furthermore this may have been developed further in the last couple of years since 2000. Regardless personally interesting I thought.

PRECIPITATING FACTORS (WHAT WENT WRONG?)

FAILURES OF DRIVER/RIDER

1 Failed to stop (mandatory sign)
2 Failed to give way
3 Failed to avoid pedestrian (pedestrian not to blame)
4 Failed to avoid vehicle or object in carriageway
5 Failure to signal/misleading signal
6 Loss of control of vehicle

FAILURES OF PEDESTRIAN OR PASSENGER

7 Pedestrian / pedal cyclist entered carriageway without due care (driver/rider not to blame)
8 Passenger fell in or near PSV

MANOEUVRES

9 Swerved to avoid object in carriageway
10 Sudden braking
11 Poor turn/ manoeuvre
12 Poor overtaking
13 Drove wrong way (e.g. one way street)
14 Opening door carelessly

15 OTHER (please supply details)

CAUSATION FACTORS (WHY?)

PERSONAL DETAILS

1 Impairment alcohol
2 Impairemnt drugs
3 Impairment fatigue
4 Impairment illness

5 Distraction stress / emotional state of mind
6 Distraction physical in / on vehicle
7 Distraction physical outside vehicle

8 Behaviour panic
9 Behavious careless / thoughtless / reckless
10 Behaviour nervous / uncertain
11 Behaviour in a hurry

12 Failure to judge other person's path or speed
13 Disability
14 Failed to look
15 Looked but did not see
16 Inattention
17 Person hit wore dark or inconspicuous clothing
18 OTHER (please supply details)

PEDESTRIAN DETAILS

19 Crosses from behind parked vehicle etc
20 Ignored lights at crossing

DRIVER DETAILS

21 Excessive speed
22 Following too close

23 Inexperience of driving
24 Inexperience of vehicle

25 Interaction or competition with other road users
26 Aggressive driving
27 Lack of judgement of own path

VEHICLE DEFECTS

28 Tyres wrong pressure
29 Tyres deflation before impact
30 Tyres worn / insufficient tread

31 Defective lights or signals
32 Defective brakes

33 OTHER (please supply details)

LOCAL CONDITIONS

Site details:-
34 Poor road surface
35 Poor / no street lighting
36 Inadequate signing
37 Steep hill
38 Narrow road
39 Bend / winding road
40 Roadworks

41 Slippery road
42 High winds
43 Earlier accident
44 OTHER (please supply details)

OBSCURATION

45 View: windows obscured
46 View: glare from sun
47 View: glare from headlights

48 Surroundings: bend / winding road
49 Surroundings: stationary or parked vehicles
50 Surroundings: moving vehicle
51 Surroundings: buildings fences, vegetation etc

52 Weather (eg mist / sleet )
53 Failed to see pedestrian or vehicle in blindspot

ANIMAL INVOLVEMENT

54 Animal out of control (cynical FiF comment ~ to take care of the legendary black dog / cat running across road !!)

Four causation factors are defined in order of importance together with a confidence indicator code ie A = Definite B = Probable C = Possible

Seeing as this is the Speed camera thread there is also a comment re source of speed info eg tachograph, reconstruction, witnesses, driver.


Speed cameras - Health N Safety
"It is a silly suggestion that because someone might inadvertently speed past a camera, then they are not concentrating enough to see a child on a pavement..."

"Why, exactly, is this silly? If they're being observant enough to see other potential hazards why don't they see the speed limit signs, the camera warning signs, and the brightly-coloured cameras?"

Surely if they are looking for a kids' feet under a van they won't see the camera or sign (especially one of those new digital ones) up in the air above it? And which is more important, to make sure you don't fail to spot the kid the one time it's there? Or to make sure you don't fail to spot the sign and/or camera the one time it's there? To be absolutely sure you never ever miss any camera or sign you have to be looking round the high sided vehicles, into the hedges, behind the trees, etc, etc, 100% of the time. At speed sign/camara level. Doesn't leave much scope for spotting that low level kid in that million to one time it does run out in front of you. Or am I missing something?
Speed cameras - Altea Ego
I see today that a speedcam case against Christine Hamilton has
been thrown out as she couldn't be sure whether she or
Neil were driving.



Now isnt that funny, in the fake rape case they managed to prove who was doing what and where precisly by the minute!
Speed cameras - Altea Ego
BobbyG
Yes I do that, but to check if *I* have been flashed.
Speed cameras - SR
"Not in my back yard!"

Exactly - and vice versa - if it's wrong for the rest, then it's wrong for those who break the speed limit as well. How many accidents have been categorised as being caused by fog lights, not going back to the shop when undercharged, etc, etc.....
Speed cameras - LongDriver {P}
Roadworks just starting on M6 J34-J35 (again!!!!).

4 new Gatsos planted today, two northbound, two southbound.

The 50 limit is currently "black on yellow" signs, so advisory only.

Watch out for the mandatory limits in a few days....
Speed cameras - seb
Thanks for the warning re these ... I'm now doing this stretch of the M6 as part of my daily commute (at least I'll save some petrol going at 50)

These roadworks are due to take 8 months to complete!
Seb
Speed cameras - SR
"Or am I missing something?"

Maybe - if they can't take in everything relevant about their surroundings they could try going a bit slower....maybe even below the limit, then they wouldn't have to worry about cameras at all!
Speed cameras - Health N Safety
"Maybe - if they can't take in everything relevant about their surroundings they could try going a bit slower....maybe even below the limit, then they wouldn't have to worry about cameras at all!"

But however slow you go, you can't look at everything all of the time. So, what are you suggesting, concentrate on speed limit signs, speedometers, speed cameras, and ignore kids? Or divide your attention between them. And hope that you aren't looking at the former when the latter runs out into the road. And only gets injured (hopefully) at a pedestrian "friendly" full-on 20 mph.

Perhaps drive in reverse?

"Or am I (still) missing something?"
would this work????????? - xsaradriver
Get someone to drive past speed cameras triggering them and using all the film up. Just put black tape on the plate drive past few times dont bump into plod. How many exposures do cameras hold??????
would this work????????? - stackman
I seem to remember someone once suggested bright idea of attaching a tin of beans or something similar to a length of rope then swinging it in front of the radar to fool it into taking lots of pictures and exhausting the film reel.


would this work????????? - BrianW
Been there, tried that, it doesn't work.

However, if anyone has a device that does work ............
would this work????????? - Dynamic Dave
How many exposures do cameras hold??????


Gatso's hold 800 films, I think? But as each speeding car is photgraphed twice, that would make it 400 exposures.
would this work????????? - Armitage Shanks{P}
Please will someone kindly explain how and to whom we are meant to report inappropriately sited speed cameras to the Government? Apparently they want the information but I can't find out how we are menat to give it to them. There are one or two in my area of Lincs that don't seem to serve much of a road safety purpose.
would this work????????? - Dwight Van Driver
AS

Dept of Transport, in their wisdom, placed the responsibility for Fastphoto Machines on Local Authorities under Circular Roads 1/92

tinyurl.com/wyvz

Your first line therefore must be with your LA, then upwards.

DVD
Camera Income - Mattster
Slightly off the subject, but I heard on the news of a bus lane camera in Hackney (or similar) which raises £100,000 per month for the council. The bus lane ends too late, forcing cars to go into the last bit of the lane if they want to get into the lane for turning left at the next traffic lights. "Apparently" the council are "reviewing" the situation. Bet it takes them a good few months to make that simple decision at £100k a month!
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
would this work????????? - Armitage Shanks{P}
DVD. Thank you for the information

AS
Digital cameras - prelude
Can anyone throw any light on stories that digital cameras & their auto processing systems cannot recognise 2 line number plates?
Digital cameras - Adam {P}
I would be tempted to say yes as I think, but am not sure, that the cameras take a picture of the car as well and zoom in on the plate and secondly, I know OF someone who had a motorbike with the standard two line plate who did in fact get 'done' by a SPECS camera.

Don't quote me...
Digital cameras - martint123
I thought SPECS cameras were only forward facing. Bikes have no front number plate.

Digital cameras - Adam {P}
Presuming he meant SPECS cameras yes..you're right Martin. However, whether this is true or not (and I've never heard of them so I don't think it is) this friend of a friend apparently got caught by something called a Tri Eye camera. No idea what it is, what it looks like or even if they exist. One thing's for sure, if they do, it sounds scary! Maybe this lad was just all talk but if anyone has heard of these, please say so!

Digital cameras - Dynamic Dave
Bikes have no front number plate.


Not yet, but I mentioned a little while ago that changes are afoot.

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=17...4
Digital cameras - DL
Tri-eye camera = Specs?

--
groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
Digital cameras - Sooty Tailpipes
Tri-eye = Truvelo
30' high mini-bi-eye = SPECS
Digital cameras - Adam {P}
Tri-eye would imply three and one is bad enough. Curious about this new prospect I typed in "Tri-Eye Speed Cameras" into Google and made a most shocking discovery:

www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/gatso12.htm

Please say this isn't what we're going to be up against

Digital cameras - Adam {P}
I perhaps shouldn't have been hasty as it appears this is primarily for Red Lights but you never know....
Digital cameras - pdc {P}
Have been wondering what the odd looking camera at the side of the road in Ashton-u-Lyne was. Looking at the link Adski provided, it is a Tri-Eye, and yes, it is guarding a set of lights. I will be looking out for the induction loops tomorrow morning, to confirm that it is a Tri-Eye.
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
Was coming home at 8pm tonight, 60 mph limit road and doing just under that, say 55 mph.

I go through the lights just as they were going red - couldn't stop safely on the amber in the very wet conditions without going into a dangerous skid.

Didn't see the expected G*TSO flash behind me, so can I assume that the scamera never went off? It was dark at 8pm obviously and a scamera flash would have been obvious in my rear view mirrors.

Thanks.
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - Adam {P}
Hi Clariman,
I'm no expert but what did the camera look like? In detail please...

Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
Like a yellow GATSO, pointing towards the rear of my car as I went past the lights straight over the junction.

No speed scamera markings on the road.
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - Adam {P}
I meant...if you can remember - did it look exactly like a GATSO, or were there two cirular 'lenses'. Was it a narrowish box with two sqare lenses?

All this information would help
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
It was dark, shouldn't it flash?
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
And it deffo looked like a GATSO, facing direction of travel, ie rear of car as I drove past.

I've seen similar looking scameras flash when people jump red lights.

It's on here ........

www.cheshire.police.uk/traffic_cameras.shtml

and it is this one:

A550 Welsh Rd Two Mills 60mph RED LIGHT
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - Adam {P}
I'm no expert but if you are absolutely sure that it didn't flash then I would say you should be alright. Did you pass the stop line when the light was on red?
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
I'm no expert but if you are absolutely sure that it
didn't flash then I would say you should be alright. Did
you pass the stop line when the light was on red?


Probably just as it did turn red, doing 55 mph as too wet to brake hard.
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - Adam {P}
Again, I don't want to give you any dud advice. But if it was a GATSO, then I've never heard of any that can do you for going through red lights. Whereabout was it in relation to the lights?
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
Based on this ... www.leconcepts.com/radar/Web%20Site/news/news7.htm

i.e. :-

"The state of the traffic signals is monitored and the loops are energised when the red light is illuminated. If a vehicle crosses the stop line 0.9 sec after this sequence, the camera is triggered, taking two photographs. One is taken immediately and one a second later to show the passage of the vehicle through the signals. The date and time of the offence, together with the time which elapses after the red light is illuminated, are recorded onto the film."

Looks like I am OK, as definitely well within 0.9 seconds when I crossed the line, more like 0.001 seconds!!
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - Adam {P}
Best thing you can do is go to

www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk and see exactly which camera it was by the lights

Then you'll know for sure
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
Best thing you can do is go to
www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk and see exactly which camera it was by the lights
Then you'll know for sure


It's the one on the RIGHT here .... www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/gatso02.htm

ie "Peek Traffic: Traffiphot III G Piezo Sensor" - but it most definitely did not flash, if it had, I would most certainly not have missed it at night!
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - Adam {P}
Right - these cameras can do either speeders and Red light jumpers although I understand in your case this was unavoidable. What I didn't realise until a few weeks ago when another person on this forum told me is that these particular cameras only flash in low light conditions. E.g. darkness. Without meaning to go out on a limb here, if you didn't see a flash, then, (hopefully) the camera will not have taken a picture. By the way, the cameras take two pictures to prove that you didn't reverse back over the line. I would say with 99% certainty that you are alright.
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
Right - these cameras can do either speeders and Red light
jumpers although I understand in your case this was unavoidable. What
I didn't realise until a few weeks ago when another person
on this forum told me is that these particular cameras only
flash in low light conditions. E.g. darkness. Without meaning to go
out on a limb here, if you didn't see a flash,
then, (hopefully) the camera will not have taken a picture. By
the way, the cameras take two pictures to prove that you
didn't reverse back over the line. I would say with 99%
certainty that you are alright.


How long do I wait until I know I am in the clear?
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - Adam {P}
I asked all these questions many weeks ago and all I can do is tell you what I got told by more learned people.
The NIP, (Notice Of Intended Prosecution) must be sent by them within 14 days. They must send it within reasonable time for it to get to you within 14 days. That is to say, them sending it on the 14th day from the offence is not legal and thus will invalidate the NIP. If they did send it say 10 days from the offence and it only reached you 15 days later then I think, (don't quote me) it is still valid. Although I would say this is unlikely.

SO the answer in short would be 14 days. Good Luck
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - nick
>>I go through the lights just as they were going red - couldn't stop safely on the amber in the very wet conditions without going into a dangerous skid<<

With respect, surely this means you were going too fast for the road conditions?
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - clariman
With respect, surely this means you were going too fast for
the road conditions?


Possibly yes, in retrospect, but speeding, no.
Traffic Light GATSO looking Camera query - Flat in Fifth
>>
>> With respect, surely this means you were going too fast
for
>> the road conditions?
>>
Possibly yes, in retrospect, but speeding, no.


Exactly so! That is the point people forget, to take it to a ridiculous extent to "avoid going too fast for the conditions" as defined above would mean that the closer one got to the line speed would have to drop to almost nothing, just in case the lights changed when you were 3 feet behind the line.

All the studies, including the DfT's own, recognise there is a zone of uncertainty in which it is unclear whether one can proceed and cross OK or have the ability to stop behind the line if the lights change.

Near us we have a Tri-Eye as mentioned somewhere else in this thread, NSL dual carriageway. Amber duration is 2.3 seconds, I've timed it.

Now work out how long it takes you to stop, even in a full on emergency stop from 70 mph and you'll see that 2.3 seconds is quite inadequate.

50 mph @ 0.8g = ~ 2.2 seconds to zero with 0.4 seconds reaction time. 0.8g is quite a hard stop almost full on emergency. Remember the limit is 70 at this point not 50.

I approach these lights at ~40 and accelerate afterwards.

Unfortunately that pees off some following drivers who wonder why I approach these lights as steadily as I do. Maybe the knowledge that the camera has a hair trigger and not wanting 60 smackers plus 3 points might have something to do with it!

The other thing I have difficulty with the positioning of this camera is that it's on the side with the best view of other vehicles and least chance of conlict with opposing traffic. The actual worst risk in the area is from a road not controlled by the lights anyway.

t-i-c mode = on

Others might say this is not about safety but revenue generation. They wouldn't do that....... would they????

t-i-c mode = off

FiF

M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - NabLane
Just received an e-mail this morning, warning of new electronic signs that are apparently being activated for the first time this week (Tuesday 2nd) on the M6 and incorporating SPECS-type devices for monitoring driver speeds.

I have included the contents of this e-mail below. Personally, I don't believe a word of it, but could somebody out there add some credibility to this story?

---------------------------------------------------------------

I have been reliably informed of the following;
The new electronic signs on the M6 were switched on this Tuesday.
The bad news is that they are rigged with the SPECS speed cameras. This
probably applies to all the new signs being installed on the M62, M60
and M56. SPECS is a computer-camera based system. As you go past the
sign a digital camera reads your number plate. When you go past the next
sign your number plate is read again.

The computer 'knows' how far apart the signs are so it can work out your
average speed between the two, or three or four.

The system is fully automatic and will issue a ticket without any form
of human intervention. It does this for every single vehicle that
passes.

You will not know you have been caught as the cameras don't flash. They
work 24/7, 365 days a year, and theoretically, there's absolutely no
limit on the number of tickets that the system can issue.
The whole section of the M6 between Knutsford and Preston is wired, both
ways.

The system is set to trigger a ticket at 78MPH. (Don't take this as a
guarantee). Radar detectors will be of no use as SPECS is entirely
passive, there is no
laser beam to detect.

Be warned and spread the news !

----------------------------------------------------------------
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - No Do$h
There was an identically worded email for the M27 a few weeks back. There are SPECS cameras on the M27, but not in the signs. As far as I'm aware, SPECS cameras do not get mounted in signs. The local Greed Camera partnership stated the only motorway signs in the UK that have cameras in them are the ones on the M25 (Gatso).

The give-away is the request to pass it on. Classic chain email.
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - NabLane
Thanks for the replies. I'll pass the word on to whoever else was on the e-mail 'cc' list and hopefully limit the spread of this drivel...
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - borasport20
It's doing the rounds here as well

The give-away is the request to pass it on. Classic
chain email.


Check the headers -
our copy appears to have originated at RAC Motoring Services - you think they'd know better




Bora - what Bora ?
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - kennybase
Not sure if this is true or not - I've received the same email about the M27, and also heard the same about the M4 - I'm sure its all a wind up email.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

I was under the impression though that for you to be prosecuted for speeding the cameras must be visible and clearly marked - I know for one that the M27 has no such signs. Again though - please correct me if I'm wrong.
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - No Do$h
They only have to be signed and visible if the revenue from the camera is to be kept by the local force. In Kent there are bright yellow SPECS cameras on the M20, but I've only seen white ones elsewhere.

Here's a link to the last thread.

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=17486&...f

I've since checked back on the ones on the M27 and they aren't in the sign at Jn2, but are mounted on the bridge immediately after the sign (Eastbound). These are NOT trafficmaster units.

As you pass J3 eastbound you will also see SPECS cameras on the sliproad exit (just by the traffic lights that control the peak traffic flow).
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - No Do$h
I'm beginning to wonder about these cameras.... The locations were all flagged on a GPS based system I used for a while but they aren't featuring on any of the camera websites any more (they were on the web previously).

The cameras certainly look like SPECS ones, with a centra camera unit and a "pod" either side, but nothing I find on the web confirms that is what they are.

Most odd.....
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - scotty
Ok, I don't know about specs south of Preston, but last week I did notice a whole bunch of new scameras on the M6 near Lancaster. Most had "not in use" covers on and it was in the section of cones which (up to Saturday) had an advisory 50 mph limit.

Anyone know what's going on?
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - StuW
I've seen these new cameras although they look like the old fashioned gatso type. The 50 limit was just a roadworks limit but have you noticed the M6 digital signs seems to be putting out some very low limits recently one time at night with hardly any traffic the signs were displaying 20! Most the time they seem to display 50 though even though the traffic is clear and the weather is fine i can't see any reason for the lower limits.
Are these limits even enforceable and would i get done by a camera if i went past one at above 20 if the sign was displaying that? I'm always particulary worried about that speed camera van that seems to lurk on bridges when these are displaying these limits.
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - pdc {P}
Are these limits even enforceable and would i get done by
a camera if i went past one at above 20 if
the sign was displaying that? I'm always particulary worried about that
speed camera van that seems to lurk on bridges when these
are displaying these limits.


Discussion here in the past has established that no red circle around the limits means they are advisory, and not mandatory, but that plod may well pull you for driving without due care and attention, or something like that.
M6 Electronic signs c/w SPECS cameras??? - No Do$h
Whilst out and about today I had another close look at the cameras on the M27 and M3. I'm no longer convinced that they are SPECS. The locations have been removed from the various sites that "shop" cameras and my friend's new GPS based system (uses the same software as the one I trialled) doesn't feature the sites that used to light-up the one I tried.

I've come the conclusion they must be some form of traffic control camera as they are sited on the busy stretches where a) speeding is all but impossible and b) there are more accidents than on other stretches of these motorways.
M60/62 speed camera signs? - RichardW
Hoax, as are all the others that have been pointed out on this site over the last couple of weeks.

There ARE SPECS cameras on the Thelwall Viaduct roadworks though....


RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
M60/62 speed camera signs? - Stargazer {P}
Definitely a hoax, this a word by word duplicate of many that have appeared recently.

The Thames Police website has a section on the new signs, this explicitly states that the new signs have two cameras..one to monitor traffic congestion and one to monitor the sign itself. They also state that there is NO speed camera of any type incorporated in the signs


From the Thames police website faq:

Q: Are there speed cameras in the new M4 road gantry signs? A: There are NO speed cameras or SPECS cameras in these signs. The signs do have two CCTV cameras: one monitors the sign itself to make sure it is working and displaying the right message; the other monitors congestion to see what effect the sign is having on traffic.

The Highways Agency has installed new signs between J 12 and J 14 of the M4 as part of a year-long pilot project to reduce congestion and collisions. The only involvement Thames Valley Police has is to change the messages on the signs to give up-to-date information. This is done via our control room. The signs are owned by the Highways Agency.

There is detailed information about the project on the Highways Agency website. Please follow the link below or call them on 0845 955 6575.


regards

Ian L.
Plod The Builder - pdc {P}
Check this out, plod pretending to be road side workers while concealing a camera in their van. Not sure whether it is a greed camera or ANPR.

www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003561674,00.html

PS - I am not a sun reader, I just get syndicated rss feeds direct to my desktop from multiple sources!
Plod The Builder - Dynamic Dave
According to the write up in The Sun, it was a ANPR van. The mock "builders van" disguise was such a laughing stock amongst locals - as it wasn't at all convincing - that it didn't take long before people started taking their own pics of it. Apparantely plod cleared off for a while and then came back later, minus the builders disguise.

 

Value my car