Rattle quoted in a previous thread "...you really need professional lessons (and a lot of them) to pass the test these days...".
Got me thinking whether this is really the case or not. I was taught by my father with no professional help and I passed first time and so did my older brother. That was 30+ years ago though and I know our roads are more crowded now etc. etc., but the basic control of a car hasn't changed.
I'm not shooting down Rattle's comment, but I'd like to know whether others agree. My eldest son is 15 at present and I'd love to teach him to drive like my father did for me.
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When you factor in the cost of insurance (depends a lot on where you live) the lessons may not be as expensive as you though.
You also need to be up to speed on what is in the test these days. I'm sure it's quite a bit different to when I passed over 15 years ago.
My nephew is getting lessons from an instructor and my brother - they bought him a brand new Citroen C2 for his 17th! Which will hardly be used if/when he goes to University in London later this year.
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I think it all depends on your ability as a driver and a teacher, and how well you know the requirements of the test - and the examiner.
IIWY I'd give lessons to start with, trying to keep things "correct", and finish off with a few "professional" ones to sort out "exam technique".
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FT, I'd personally say professional lessons and then extra lessons to gain experience whilst still having professional lessons.
When I learnt to drive, because there was no car for me to get extra experience in (I learnt at university) I needed a few more lessons to gain experience on the roads of Manchester. City centre driving was fun!
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Local news had a piece last week of a current racing driver who passed his theory and practical test on his 17th birthday. The only time he got in an instructors car was for the test, he had been driving karts for almost 10 years and now drives in Clio cup.
The news report had some in car footage and I doubt he used the 'one hand on wheel, one hand on gearstick' technique on his test.
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I should suggest the first lessons should be professional - in order to avoid picking up bad habits. I know it's nearly 20 years ago, but I had one a week for a couple of months, plus lots and lots and lots of practice with my father.
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I should suggest the first lessons should be professional - in order to avoid picking up bad habits.
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I agree.
Initial understanding is key. E.G. when I shout STOP obey and do not ask why until at a halt. Cos I only have a handbrake not dual controls :-(
There still remains a difficulty in that dad or who ever is the non professional instructor should avoid countermanding what has been taught.
Obviously checking the learner is observing correctly is easy to do after that it can be tricky.
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>>There still remains a difficulty in that dad or who ever is the non professional instructor
>>should avoid countermanding what has been taught.
That made me smile. Before my son had lessons, I took him out to teach him the basics of car control - stopping, starting and steering - on an empty industrial estate. I later took him out for practice after he had had a couple of lessons. We were doing 60 on a narrow, bendy country lane with ditches at the side when I asked if he thought we should slow down a bit. "No Dad, the instructor says I have to drive up to the speed limit or I won't be making sufficient progress".
Trust me when I say that 60 is fast on this stretch - terrifyingly so when the driver has 3 hours experience ;-)
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools" (Herbert Spencer)
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>>Manatee
Your comments made me smile. An interesting / scary example.
I had more in mind - raise the revs to xxx now ease of the the clutch pedal.
We might describe the revs as screaming and recognise the smell of clutch smoke. :-)
The other one that comes to mind. Turn the ignition key without your foot on the gas and keep your foot off until just prior to moving off. Quite different from the old days of give it some welly to stop it stalling.
I still hear the old method being used on modern cars.
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IIWY I'd give lessons to start with trying to keep things "correct" and finish off with a few "professional" ones to sort out "exam technique".
FT - I am pleased to see you have discovered the button for quotation marks at last, instead of using asterisks!
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My guiding principle in life, as applied to your situation.
Driving safely is not always equal to being able to pass a driving test. You can teach your son to drive, but make sure he takes professional lessons just before he attempts the driving test.
Passing a driving test means exactly that - you are adept at passing the driving test. Does not mean you are a good driver!
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I have got two daughters through the test in the past three years. Both benefited from professional lessons a) when very new to driving, as they need to be in a dual control car and b) to be taught to drive the way the examiner expects, which might not be what I (or many others) would teach.
Both had lots of road-time with me as well, though - budget on them needing 50 hours behind the wheel, of which 15-20 will be with a pro instructor. It's no point taking them driving down fast A/B roads, though - it needs to be in the conditions they would experience in the test. You can download driving test routes for your test centre from the DSA website.
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Thanks for the replies.
I think if professional lessons are to be had, then the earlier the better, with dad providing the practice. Let the professionals get the basics taught first.
Kayks, I don't relate safe driving with professional tuition. I imagine 99% of drivers who have passed in the last 20years will have had some or all professional lessons, yet the standards of driving we see on our roads and the number of accidents involving young drivers is worse than ever. As you point out, the test is only the first stage of learning to drive. I'm not sure you can teach experience to anyone, let alone a teenager.
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I think if professional lessons are to be had then the earlier the better with dad providing the practice. Let the professionals get the basics taught first.
Whatever you do, I think more is better (within limits!) - two "pro" driving lessons a week, and whatever else.
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Point taken, Chris. I just wish teens today have the same experience as I had. I was taught to drive at age 16 by my grandfather, who taught me to drive smoothly and safely. Took professional lessons before passing the test, and all I remember learning from those lessons was the "exam passing technique". Passed the test first time at 18, no problems. And yes, in the intervening two decades or so, driving standards have dropped.
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I go back a little bit further than yourself, and also passed first time. Drove my father's car, a Vauxhall Victor, had my lessons (privately) in an Anglia van, which wasn't available (or eligible ? for the test - can't remember now) so took the test in a Vauxhall Viva belonging to my work, and which i drove for the first time on the way to the test centre.
BUT - that was then, and although i am quite confident that i could teach someone to physically handle a car, what with the plethora of regulations and road signs to learn nowadays, and all at once, i wouldn't consider trying to teach someone to pass the test myself.
If i am honest, i doubt that i would pass if i took the test tomorrow, however if you have more confidence than me, by all means teach your son, and the worst that can happen is that he fails, and has to have a few lessons.
Alternatively, teach him yourself until you judge him ready to take the test, then get him a couple of lessons to confirm your judgement ?
I think rattles comment was in response to my post about learner insurance. When my friends daughter neared 17 i started pointing out "hazards" to her, when she got behind the wheel i started quizzing her, and now after four lessons, she has started quizzing me ! brilliant ! (except that she spotted one that i missed about an hour ago)
Do they do a V12 Turbo zimmer frame ???
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"It's no point taking them driving down fast A/B roads, though - it needs to be in the conditions they would experience in the test."
Not the case anymore. This has been one of the biggest changes in the last 10-15 years. Test routes will cover any roads which are in striking distrance of test centres. My wife did a section of NSL road on her test 10 years ago and she was expected to do that speed.
20 years ago it was the case that you would probably pootle round a few 30 mph streets for 20-25 minutes. Anything more than 40 was considered dangerous.
As an example when my dad started teaching 25 years ago the Sheffield Parkway was a no go for learners as it's a dual carriageway with a 50 limit. Over the years things changed and it now features regularly on test routes.
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My lessons lasted for a period of 9 months in all and I covered thousands of miles. Trips from Essex to Yorkshire, monthly trips to the South Coast, plus lots of local journeys. Dual carriageways, night driving, rain, shine and a bit of ice. I wouldn't have got all that with a driving school. I was in no hurry to take the test as I didn't have the money to buy a car. In those days insurance was cheaper and it was OK to borrow dad's car occassionally.
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Davey - perhaps I didn't word that clearly - but just fast A/B roads is not that useful - as the test is about 80% street-based, certainly in Oxford, at least.
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In order to both pass the driving test and be a safe driver, I believe that there's no substitute for clocking up many hours behind the wheel.
I have taught my wife and my 2 daughters to drive. I pestered the life out of them to drive with me on a daily basis, which made driving second nature to them.
They all also received some professional training to bring them up to date on latest driving test procedures, etc.
I know that you can pass the test on the basis of professional teaching alone but it would be prohibitively expensive to clock up the miles in this way. Clocking up the miles on your own, after passing the test, is a good way to pick up bad habits with nobody to feed back those faults to you.
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YES!
A professional driving instructor teaches you how to pass the test not drive safely.
I always had a lot of friends who were more than happy for me to drive on a provisional licence whilst they (being qualified) sat nest to me.
As a result I picked up bad habits which meant I failed the test three times and had to have tuition to help me pass.
The test itself is in my opinion old fashioned and in no way prepares you for the reality of driving today but it is something that must be passed.
That's my experience anyway.
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YES! A professional driving instructor teaches you how to pass the test not drive safely.
In 20 years as an ADI that is one skill I never mastered, teaching people to pass the test without teaching them to drive safely.
Perhaps you could explain to me where I went wrong?
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A combination of both is needed. I used to drive a bit with my dad before passing my test but my view was I knew how to drive I just hadn't bothered to take the test at the time. I found this experience helped with my confidence. By the time I did take my test it was just another drive. I was nervious and I put two of my four minors down to nerves.
I have had a few lessons and off and only my third instructor made everything seem sense. He gave me confidence and told me just before my test. I still think I was fairly lucky with my test route though.
My instructor used to teach me how to drive safely he gave me a lot of tips which were not needed for the test. Simple thinks like the rear tyre in vision rule are not really needed for the test but they are needed to drive safely.
I would say if the person is young then it will also cost too much to insure that person. I know there are still some people that apparantly pass in 10 lessons but out of all the many people I know at least 50 lessosn seems to be the average these days for Manchester. If a lesson costs £25 each that is £1250, then there is theory test, the practical test(s) etc.
I have a friend who wanted to learn to drive and I told him unless you have £2k to invest don't even think about it yet, as you will run out of money and you will have to cancel your lessons (this happened to me when I was 19, I just could no longer afford lessons).
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My parents were very insistent that I had more lessons than the norm. I can't recall how many but I seem to recall the man at BSM looking very chuffed when we went in to book.
It's impossible to say if it has made me a better/safer driver but I am persuaded that it has and I will do the same when the day comes to cough up for junior(s). I'm sure I will sit in on practice drives with them, but only after they have had a good grounding of professional lessons before I wade in with all my bad habits.
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I genuinely believe we should all (not just new drivers) be encouraged to take an IAM or similar course after a suitable time period e.g 2 years of passing test. Maybe HM Govt could offer a tax break or partially fund it or something similar. Maybe the insurance companies could offer serious discounts, perhaps encouraged by HMG.
ADI's can cover the test bit and the pootling around...but how about motorways, overtaking, reading the road properly at speed, hazard perception in an advanced format
there is so much more to know and many, many people don't even know there is anything more to know
it's the equivalent of me on a computer...there's loads more to know, but i shut my mind to it, because it's on the 'too difficult pile'
Edited by Westpig on 11/03/2009 at 19:11
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About five years after passing my car test I took an HGV Class 3 course and test - a real eye-opener, and that's probably when I learned to drive for real.
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My current employer used to provide RoSPA run defensive driving courses for company drivers. The theory was it would reduce accidents and hence costs. Due to cost reduction plans they stopped doing this.
You had to do one every couple of years but I only ever did one. Very good it was too. On my course I think there ended up only three of us! And the other two had an automatic. So after a morning in the classroom we went out on the roads. Except I got a full afternoon with the instructor. You normally share a car but I was the only one with a manual so went on our own.
Shame it stopped. I digress.
I think professional lessons with top up lessons. But the latter depends on insurance costs. It still could be cheaper to have all of it in an instructors car unless you're going to insure the car for them after passing anyway. And premiums could go up after they pass.
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We went the other way, started with anb instructor and I filled in at the end trying hard not to give them bad habits.
It is better to start the way they have to behave to pass rather than the instructor have to train bad habits out of them.
The instructor
- will know the test routes and where they do turns, reverses - you won't.
- will know how the examiner expects gears and clutch to be used (not how I do it)
- will know what speed they are expected to drive (e.g. 30 in a 30 regardless of conditions or they are not making sufficient progress);
- will know they are expected to join a dual carriageway . . . .
- will know all the other things the instructor expects to see, or not see (mirror use, signal use etc).
When I started taking them out I concentrated on awareness and anticipation at junctions and tried not to change their technique. Possibly cost my son one fail because his anticipation was very good and he could slot into gaps at junctions most learners would never consider - unfortunately he did this on test ! ! Now 23 and no accidents.
Had one remote argument with the pro when they re-lined one roundabout in Lichfield and I told my son to do use a different lane to the instructor - he argued and eventually agreed with me (after going round again and reading the large white words on the road) and a week later having been round with the instructor (who had not noticed the re-marking) he agreed as well.
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It is better to start the way they have to behave to pass rather than the instructor have to train bad habits out of them.
Don't let the person you're instructing get into bad habits, then!
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Hi,
A nice mix of opinions and comments spread over numerous year of experience and I would say most are valid in their own way.
I an an ADI with many quakifications. The Driving Standards Agency have figures that show the average teenage driver who passes their test having taken 2 hours a week has had approx 46 hours with an instructor and 20+ private practice.
I would strongly suggest you get lessons with an approved instructor before you give her additional private practice. Make the lesson at least a 2 hour session at a time and ensure the driving instructor is up to date and uses assessment sheets and progress reports for every lesson.
Also ask if you can sit in to watch the lesson and that will keep you right with some of thing you should be watching for.
If the instructor doesn't complete accurate records for him and student and doesn't want you to sit in on the odd lesson - go to another school who will.
Then when the time is right give her as much private practice as you can but still keep up the lessons too.
If you want any other advice just ask.
Cheers, Brian
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I would avoid two hours sessions because its too much to take in. When I came back from driving lessons I was usualy very tired it was more than enough for me.
I think two x one hour sessions is a lot better as this gives you the person a brake.
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I does depend on the individual and two hours together if structured properly will provide far more learning than two individual hours on an hour per hour basis.
Most students we have who start on a 2hr lesson would never go back to a one hour lesson and when it comes time for the test you would normally have a one hour lesson leading up to the test then the actual 40 minute test.
If you have only ever taken 1 hour lessons and this is the first time you have driven for longer it may be too much on the day.
The student on a 2 hour lesson (or longer) also gets the chance to experience a far greater variety of road and traffic conditions. If you only have an hour, you are no sooner heading away from home and then you are heading back again and inevitably on the same routes most times.
Students should get the chance to experience as many different environments as possible especially 70mph roads when the time is right, well before going for test.
Once a student passes the actual test it is good to do the Pass Plus and many of our instructors will do this on the one day over a 61/2 to 7 hour period and coer 200 to 250 miles with a couple of good breaks built in. Now that is good experience.
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I would avoid two hours sessions because its too much to take in.
I would say 2 hour lessons are better. To start with 1 hour is fine but soon you will be better off with 2 hour lessons. Apart from the time for pick-up/drop-off (so learning little) you can get a lot of experience in those 2 hours.
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