Advice Regarding garage issues - MichaelR
Hi guys..

Wonder what your take on this would be and what the next step should be?

Some background.

In February, the radiator in my car went. I took it to a local radiator specialist to ask if it could be repaired, or whether I'd need a new one. The guy took one look at the radiator and said it was leaking from the plastic end tanks and could not be repaired, and would require replacement.

The local BMW specialist could not fit me in for several days, but the radiator specialist offered to do the work for me there and then, replacing the radiator. I was happy to accept.

I collected the car, drove away, job done.

But no. A week later, I checked the coolant level on the car. Empty. Coolant all over the engine undertray. Took the tray off, radiator leaking from the bottom corners. Took it straight back. He took the car for the day - I paid for insurance on another car - and I picked it up that afternoon. He said it was all fixed, the new radiator had developed a tiny hole and he had now replaced it for me. He apologised for the problems.

I drove away again. Over the next few weeks, I found myself topping up with coolant every couple of days. Surely not right. I took the plastic engine undertray off (Which was again flooded with coolant), and low and behold, coolant was dripping off the ends of the radiator. I went back again. He was apologetic, and offered again to have a look. I picked the car up again, just as they were finishing the work. A member of his staff had broken the plastic fan cowling with removing the radiator and replacing it so many times. But the guy seemed so friendly, I didn't say much of it.

He claimed it was totally fixed - same problem again, apparently. Brilliant. He said 'well there was pressure in the engine that was blowing up the radiators'. This seemed strange, as the M54B30 engine operates a pressurised cooling system anyway, with a vent system which vents excess pressure over 2 bar.

You can guess what happened next. Leaking, again.

Sick of the problems, I took the car to my local BMW specialist. They called up with a diagnosis.

The car required a new radiator, as it was leaking from the end tanks. I explained the situation and said I'd previously had 3 radiators fitted to cure this problem. What the guy said next shocked me.

I was told the radiator in my car was not new. It was at least 2 years old - infact, it had a build date of 2005 stamped on it. It was also a genuine BMW part. The guy suggested that, perhaps, it was the radiator in the car from before, or a used one from somewhere. He also said it looked like it had been recored at some point. I authorised replacement of the radiator. Whilst they were doing that, I also had them replace the thermostat as well as they said it was prudent to do it and they were having a few problems bleeding the system.

They did this work about 3-4k miles ago. Since then, the car has been absolutely perfect. No issues, no strange holes appearing, no leaking from the end tank. Just a simple, straightforward, radiator replacement.

They gave me the radiator they took out the car. It doesnt look new, it looks a bit old. It also appears to have been bashed lots at the end, perhaps in an attempt to reseal the radiator with the plastic end tanks, I dont know. It's clearly new a nearly new radiator from the likes of GSF or any of the other pattern part suppliers.

So I went back to the original place to request a refund. He refused, saying that my car had 'blown up his radiators'. I then pointed out that the car was now perfectly functioning with no issues at all. I showed him the invoice from the other garage detailing that they had removed what appeared to be a used radiator. He spotted the Thermostat replacement and then said 'Thats the problem, it was the Thermostat all along, blowing the radiators'. He refused to pay. He refused to address my point that despite 3 attempts at repairing the car, he had failed.

So, yesterday I sent a recorded delivery letter, outlining the situation, requesting a refund of the radiator, labour, 2 days insurance on the alternative car, and the cost of replacing the fan cowling. Basically, the costs I had incurred as a result of his faliure to do the work and not a penny more.

He refused to fund anything but the cost of the radiator part and the cost of a new fan cowling. He refused to refund any labour costs. He would only make any refund if we gave him the old radiator back. He stuck to his story that my thermostat blew up his radiators. I'd have been happy to hand over the old radiator had he refunded my money, and paid for the fan cowling replacement in full, but as he would only refund the parts costs, we parted company.

To this day he denies the fact he put a used radiator in the car. I suspect, but of course never actually said this to him as I didnt want to degenerate into an arguement, that the radiator I have is the cars original radiator, which he has at every occasion attempted to repair. I can, however, NOT prove this.

What do I do now? I suspect my next stop is small claims. Do I have a case? Surely there is no way a thermostat can blow radiators within a mile? (Second leak was visible less than a mile after I arrived home from picking the car up). Is he trying it on?

What is the Small Claims Court like in cases like this, where he is citing technical issues as a reason for no refund?
Advice Regarding garage issues - Xileno {P}
I can't see how a failed thermostat could blow a radiator. I think they are all 'fail safe' these days anyway.
Advice Regarding garage issues - geoff1248
Two ports of call before you try the Small Claims Court. First try your local Trading Standards Office, your garage may already be known to them. Next step is the Legal Dept. of the AA or RAC if you are a member.
Advice Regarding garage issues - SteVee
>>What do I do now? I suspect my next stop is small claims. Do I have a case? Surely there is no way a thermostat can blow radiators within a mile? <<

Absolute nonsense.
If the thermostat fails closed, then the radiator is not in the cooling circuit - the engne may (will) suffer, but the radiator won't.
If the thermostat fails open, then the engine just won't reach full working temperature.

If for some bizarre reason, your cooling system is being over-pressurized by some fault, then the heater matrix is just as likely to 'blow' as the main radiator.
replacing the thermostat was a sensible precaution by the dealer - no more than that.

In any case, he had several chances to fix the problem and never said that the system had excessive pressure. If he had problems bleeding the system with the old thermostat, then he should've said so at the time.

I'd agree with geoff1248 on your next course of action
Advice Regarding garage issues - Dipstick
Just for info, there is no legal department at the AA at least any more. I got this email from them when I asked in December 2005:


"Unfortunately the AA no longer offer legal advice on motoring issues. This service was withdrawn in mid 2004."



Advice Regarding garage issues - MichaelR
Thanks Stevee, thats what I thought as well. I think it was an unfamiliarity with the car that led him to that conclusion, if I give him the benefit of the doubt!

He decided to today suggest he has done 80 radiators on cars like mine over the last year and never had a problem. I live in Plymouth. I doubt I've even SEEN 80 different 5 Series over the last year let alone he's fixed 80 of them so I think thats a bit of a porky as well.

Whatever the 'issue' he had was, the BMW specialist certainly didnt encounter it becuase they fitted me a radiator, filled my car with coolant and... well, its been fine ever since.

I think he's clinging to the thermostat as some sort of get out clause.

Problem is, if I eventually do have to go via Small Claims, are they going to understand this sort of issue or would they be taken in by his fairy tales?
Advice Regarding garage issues - Armitage Shanks {p}
I'd lay odds that if you initiate SCC action he will settle before it even gets to a hearing. Bullys usually cave in, particularly if they are in the wrong. Cheap and easy procedure - forms dowloaded from the internet, a small fee or two to pay up front which won't break you if you lose and which will be refunded if you win.
Advice Regarding garage issues - Lud
Slight topic drift here, but plastic radiators are carp.

American radiator shops in the 70s would melt your metal radiator apart, rod the tubes, stop any leaks and solder the whole thing back together again in about 20 minutes, and for only $20 if you took it out and put it back yourself - not too difficult with 60s American cars.
Advice Regarding garage issues - Civic8
>>Bullys usually cave in, particularly if they are in the wrong.

Thats assuming he knows hes in the wrong,from the sound of it he doesnt, nor his job
Advice Regarding garage issues - Armitage Shanks {p}
From what has been posted here so far I guess he is in the wrong and, if he doesn't know it, he will find out when gets to SCC!
Advice Regarding garage issues - jacks
Not used the SCC - but couldn't you go back to the BMW Independent that successfully repaired your car and get then to supply you with a letter/report that states:

1) The radiator they removed was not new and was faulty.
2) The replacement of the thermostat was a precautionary measure only and that a faulty thermostat would not "blow" a radiator.
3) replacement of the radiator has completely cured the problems

Also
Take some digital photos of the old radiator

Include this in your file of paperwork to present to the SCC.

If you are worried that the rad."specialist" will try to wriggle out by using technical talk to the court then you must get some written eveidence to counteract this.

I understand that the SCC is quite informal, more like a meeting and the the court is usually quite sympathetic to members of the public who have been ripped off by traders.

You have a genuine and honest case - you've tried to be fair and ask for compensation for your losses caused by his incompetance.
I hope you go to the SCC and I'm sure the court will find in your favour - they must have seen hundreds of dodgy traders trying to avoid responsibility and won't be fooled.

Good luck
Advice Regarding garage issues - nick
I've used the SCC twice before and both parties coughed up before the hearing as they were both trying it on. It was easy and relatively cheap to do so I'd give it a go. The trader surely won't want to risk a court judgement against him.
Advice Regarding garage issues - tintin01
I think I've posted these links before when another BR'er had a problem. I have found them useful in my case of a bed company scamming my 87 year old uncle out of £1600. Despite the involvement of Trading Standards they have yet to pay up. TS say we have a good case, so SCC action will start in 21 days if they don't settle. TS are also thinking of prosecuting. Hurrah.

www.howtocomplain.com/

www.howtocomplain.com/ (law on supply of goods and services)

www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/

I also recommend Patricia Pearl's guide to the small claims court book, available on Amazon. Definitely inform Trading Standards if only so they can keep an eye on this company. Best wishes.
Advice Regarding garage issues - tintin01
Sorry - accidentally put How to Complain in twice. Law on Supply of Goods and Services summary:

www.dti.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf

The actual law about goods and services:

www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023045.htm