Hillman, the irony is that you've just accidentally made the perfect argument against Electric Vehicles being necessary. Take a walk around Britain today and you'll find the air is cleaner than it's ever been. There's clear air in our cities, there's bright green trees all over our suburbs and far fewer people are growing up with respiratory conditions. The key point is that we didn't achieve this by reducing personal transport. There's 7 million more cars on the roads than even in 1997, traffic has increased fourfold since the 1960s and miles driven kep rising.

You say you couldn't see your fingers in 1950s Manchester, well by 2000 that had most certainly changed without electric cars being anywhere to be seen. The majority of early 20th century smog issues stemmed from the heavy industry taking place very close to what only a few years earlier, had been peaceful living spaces.

The move to unleaded petrol probably had more impact on this than anything else. Look at crowded cities like Oxford which has seen emissions rise since they banned cars, because al the extra buses kick out far worse gases. The anti-co2 lobby are the biggest threat to our green and pleasant land.

Not being able to see pollution like you could back in the 50's does not mean it is not there

A very convenient argument for the hard left green lobby, but if it's all the same to you I'll worry about things we can actually see.

the only way to change that is to move away from fossil fuels for transport and for power generation.

Even if I agreed with the hysteria around carbon dioxide (which I don't) I would still acknowledge that Britain is too small to have a measurable impact.

The UK produces 2% of Earths man-made carbon dioxide, and only 20% of that 2% is road transport. I'd argue we're being taxed in horrific disproportion to the 'damage' we apparently cause.

Also consider this; if Britain sank tomorrow, it'd take China merely two years to make up that 2%. Right now we're taxing business to death, taxing poor people into poverty all to pay for silly windmills, while India and China between them has over 500 coal fired power stations under construction.

It's total madness. While we're faffing about with miniscule amount of co2, the rest of the World is getting on with life.

So because we only produce 2%, that is insignificant and we don't need to consider changing anything. What irresponsible b*ll*x.

I said we are taxed in horrific disproportion. If you believe being overtaxed for no reason is 'responsible' then that's up to you, but don't try and tell me paying lots of tax to the Government is going to change the temperature of Earth.

Even you cannot argue with long-term science showing that (a) atmospheric CO2 has been rising for over a century and (b) average global temperature has also been rising.

I can counter that by pointing out average temperatures haven't risen since 1998 and that 95% of atmospheric CO2 is naturally produced. Note how they call it 'climate change' now rather than 'global warming' like they used to.

Some American scientists are now saying we're entering a long spell of global cooling.

You can dispute that those rises are due simply to more humans burning fossil fuel (as Nigel Lawson does). That does not mean it is a problem we can ignore.

The most dangerous words in politics are 'something must be done.' Unfortunately, whenever politicians decide to do something, it usually results in all of us getting poorer and the supposed 'problem' remaining unsolved.

My point is this; I don't know whether CO2 emissions change the temperature of Earth. However I do know the measures we've taken to supposedly combat it are destructive & dangerous.

Energy bills are only going up in Europe. Texans have seen a 50% reduction in recent years because America is embracing cheaper fossil alternatives with Shale Gas. In Europe, we attach a 15% surcharge to everybodies electricity bill to fund useless windmills, in the most shocking transfer of money from poor to rich I've ever seen.

In Europe, we're taxing business so grossly that the last of the heavy industry is simply shutting down here and re-opening in India to avoid EU Environmental Law. Therefore simply moving CO2 emissions, rather than stopping them. Another example of how the current measures don't work. In a globalised world, you can only take this stuff so far before the money simply leaves your country and goes somewhere more welcoming.

Europe is fast becoming a desolate, industrial wasteland while the rest of the World gets on with life. Every time we pass an Environmental directive, the Chinese say 'thank you very much.' Britain faces the genuine prospect of running out of electricity in 2015, because the EU is forcing us to close a few power stations. Meanwhile the Chinese & Indians have 500 coal fired power stations under construction. The maths don't lie.

I don't see how we're going to achieve anything by plunging Europe into poverty & darkness while the rest of the World eats our lunch and dinner. Who are we helping then? Certainly not ourselves.

That's my point.

Ah I see now - your a disbeliever in science and only believe in what you can see yourself. Right - can't really discuss it with you then if you believe that.

Me and over 50% of the British public, according to the most recent polls on the credibility of this 'science.' I'm with the majority and I'm quite comfortable there.

Edited by jamie745 on 20/11/2013 at 01:48