210 on the M25 - SteveH42
In neither situation can you possibly respond is you come across something unexpected. However, you are less likely to do so on a racetrack and more likely to harm yourself and others on a public road no matter how quiet.

Maybe they should have occasional times where motorways are closed to normal traffic and the usual rules are waived so people can have their fun without causing too much havoc?
210 on the M25 - T Lucas
Fantastic car the Skyline GTR.Not so sure about 210mph on the M25 though!
210 on the M25 - teabelly
I think driving that fast should be kept to the racetrack. There are always the German autobahn's to drive on where you might be able to do that speed amongst drivers that are used to people doing a lot over 70.

Driving at that speed on a deserted motorway in broad daylight might be acceptable as long as the driver can stop in the distance they can see to be clear in front of them but with motorway surfaces being what they are hitting a ripple at that speed while cornering could do a lot to unsettle a car, even a skyline. Driving at night at that speed is suicidal as I don't think there are headlights that would allow you to see clearly enough for large enough distances to be safe.

If you did close the motorways you would have to send the cars along a good distance apart. In fact, send one once the other previous car was safely off the road would be the only way to minimise the risk.

210 on the M25 - Bromptonaut
On an empty and closed public road possibly. But the M25 is never really empty. The guy in the Mondeo taking his family for the early ferry to France is just not going to anticipate a car at legal limit times 3.
210 on the M25 - Keith S
On this point only, and not with respect to other speeding issues, I would say it is probably a bit unfair to do that sort of speed and risk the lives of others who would not anticipate this speed.

210 on the M25 - BrianW
210 mph is way over the top on a public road.
130 mph would be acceptable if there was no speed limit, since other drivers would be aware that there may be traffic travelling faster than themselves and would be watching for it.

IMHO speed limits tend to reduce awareness and the general level of competence, as a higher and higher proportion of drivers have never exceeded 70 mph (or so they say) and therefore have not had the opportunity to hone their skills at higher speeds (which in a modern car in suitable conditions is quite safe).

Still learning (I hope)
210 on the M25 - Tom Shaw
210mph is equivilent to 308ft, or three football pitch lenghts, in one second. I don't think anyone could class that as less than lunacy on a stretch of road that could contain other unsuspecting human beings.

Come to that, I doubt if you could find a 300ft length of the M25 that is clear of other vehicles at any time of day or night.
210 on the M25 - JamesH
Was it really 210mph? It could have been a Jap import doing 210km/h, a still unacceptable 130mph.

If that was the case, it wouldn't pass an SVA, maybe meaning no MOT?

210 on the M25 - orbit500
I'm sure it was 200+ indicated, ie 190 odd true. The GTI-R has been timed officialy at 196 on more thna 1 occasion.
It's not pretty doing it round corners, though.
Anyhow two points :
1. Surely the TV programme and the owner are complicit in an offence which if prosecuted would almost certainly merit a custodial sentence. I recall that a chap was jailed recently when police recovered a camcorder tape from the camera starpped to his bike.
2. I really, really hate these sensationalist "documentaries". Objectively a few rich boys doing 190-odd at 3am is an infintesimal risk to society compared to the 10%+ uninsured drivers, the 20% of accidents caused by sleepiness, the large number of mechanically dangerous cars, the daft placing or lack of road signs at dangerous junctions etc etc etc
But, doesn't make good telly does it ?

As for the speed detector thing one could very easily argue that what they do is that since the police placed a camera in a particular spot it must be because that spot has a high accident risk. Thus the detector is simply alerting the driver to the presence of that camera and hence the increased risk so he slows in anticipation ...
210 on the M25 - Andrew-T
No, Tom - I'm sure you would notice the difference if David Beckham and co. played on a 103-foot pitch! One pitch, I think you mean.
210 on the M25 - Tom Shaw
Sorry Andrew, my calculator must have had a virus.

Though as a West Ham fan, I wish the pitch had only been 103ft long yesterday!
210 on the M25 - Rob C
I would advocate derestriction of our motorways, but believe the public is too thick to be wary of cars doing 155mph or more.
210 on the M25 - No Do$h
I'm sure I'm not the only one to have found myself on a motorway at that time in the morning, only to be met with the 50mph mid-lane merchant. Now at 95 I can slow and pass him safely. At 210 they and I are going to be automotive marmite spread thinly over several hundred yards of tarmac.

What a Dime Bar.

Perhaps Rockingham could advertise a "run what you brung" (sic) for testosterone fuelled lunatics who feel they have to prove themselves like this?

No Dosh ** Quick, talk motoring, Mark's coming! **
210 on the M25 - Toad, of Toad Hall.
I'm sure I'm not the only one to have found myself
on a motorway at that time in the morning, only to
be met with the 50mph mid-lane merchant. Now at 95
I can slow and pass him safely. At 210 they
and I are going to be automotive marmite spread thinly over
several hundred yards of tarmac.

So you are arguing that this guy is doing the right thing on the basis that two morons will be wiped of the face of the earth?

Pretty compelling argument.

These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
210 on the M25 - BrianW
That's not how I read it.
I took as saying that 210 wasn't safe on a public road until we improve the general driving standards.

How DO we retrain middle lane merchants, BTW?

Still learning (I hope)
210 on the M25 - Toad, of Toad Hall.
How DO we retrain middle lane merchants, BTW?

Leave their bodies swinging from the gallows on the stokenchurch cutting.

The reassuring creak of the hemp as they sway in the bitter wind while birds peck their eyes and foxs devour their entrails will be a lesson to us all.

Harsh, but fair.
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
210 on the M25 - Pete F
I always pass middle laners on the left. What difference does it make passing left or right as they do in the US? If enough people did this, it would all balance out OK, instead of lane 3 being full of cars and nothing in the left lane.
210 on the M25 - joe
I do this from time to time, just for the pleasure of seeing the morons flash me when I go past. But, my worry has always been that if they are stupid/innattentive enough to drive in the middle lane when the road is clear, they are probably daft enough to move over into the slow lane just when I am in the process of over (or under)taking. There would be a good chance that you would be right in their blind spot when this happened.
210 on the M25 - Pete F
So long as the speed differential isn't too great and you have a bit of 'escape' room, then it's no problem.
210 on the M25 - No Do$h
So you are arguing that this guy is doing the right
thing on the basis that two morons will be wiped of
the face of the earth?
Pretty compelling argument.

Well, I wasn't but now that you put it that way, yeah, why not? It certainly offers a compelling argument for Darwinism and natural selection. One less skyline and one less middle-lane merchant. Hmm, can't see any problems with that.

Love the imagery of the creaking hemp. Perhaps if we were to string 'em up from those oh-so-useful gantrys on the Surrey section of the M25?

No Dosh ** Quick, talk motoring, Mark's coming! **
210 on the M25 - orbit500
Have you tried looking a little further ahead the faster you go ?
At 200mph or 90 ms-1 a generous 1.25s reaction time to steering input or braking gives ( after a little simple mechanics ) a 200-50 lead distance of 375m. Or 3 and a bit junction markers.
Now on a clear night on a wide motorway there are very few points where you can't see < 800m.
So worst case is you have to brake to the speed of an obstacle car, say 55mph. 99% of the time you switch lanes although I'd want 1 clear lane between me and him at that speed !
The car is perfectly capable of taking the road in a single lane at that speed. The M25 isn't full of gravel, potholes and hidden junctions. The only danger I see is an unlit or badly lit car in the wrong lane or a lit car unexpectedly swerving across 2 lanes.
But then you wouldn't be laughing at 100mph in that case, would you ?
210 on the M25 - Mark (RLBS)
& if you get a puncture ? Or something runs out in front of you ?

I can't see that 210mph would *ever* be safe on a public highway. The most I have ever driven at is 170mph give or take a bit since the speedo wasn't my major concern, not in this country, on a road with nobody else, but still a road.

Frightening - and no way you can keep the required level of concentration for any period of time.
210 on the M25 - Graham
I remember a coleague doing 140mph on the M10. He said that the slight curves were like haipins at that speed! Although the bike was as steady as a rock.

FWIW I think that is far too fast. I wouldn't trust the road to have no debris on and at that speed how could you take avoiding action. Also there are still a lot of vehicles who'd rear lights are very dim. You'd never see them in time.
210 on the M25 - Slice
Twit. How did he know there were no other cars around? What if he had come across a similar obstruction as the Top Gear staffer mentioned in another thread? This is what track days are for - the other participants are expecting high speed traffic and should act accordingly.

I frequently go to watch the open access days at Castle Combe circuit for their entertainment value and it is all to easy to see that drivers' actual abilities are well below what they imagine them to be (as, I'm sure, are mine but I'm not daft enough to want to prove that in front of a crowd). But at least they are finding this out in an environment in which rescue and medical services are within a couple of minutes at most of reaching them when things go pear-shaped.

Motorway speed limits are a necessary 'evil' because our system is too crowded to allow total derestriction. I am not saying that high speed is dangerous per se - I believe that argument has been done to death on this forum - but that the speed differentials that would then be opened up between people who feel they have to drive at two or three times the current limit and those like HGV's which can't, or simply those drivers who feel quite happy at or around 70 or 80 would make what are currently our safest roads considerably less so.
210 on the M25 - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Actually I've just noticed HJ's question was is it safer than the track.

Out of 30 cars starting a race maybe 3 will crash.

Out of 30 cars driving at 210 for a brief spell on an empty motorway [1][2] I guess none would crash.

So flat out is safer on the motorway. Which is a tribute to our road designers I guess.

[1] We've must trust the information that we've been given telling us it really was clear.
[2] We must also assume the car is capable of safe roadholding at that speed.

These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
210 on the M25 - tone
Done 150+ in a skyline on the m45 once, not something i'm proud of but was getting hassle from the golf gti / baseball cap brigade all the way up the m1, trying to encourage me to race. In the end, after one pulled an emergency stop in front of me, i just though f-it and left them.

Not something i'd want to repeat, on a public road. (Partly because i ended up trading down to a dodgy alfa)
210 on the M25 - Tony N
It would have been a jap speedo reading kms with out a doubt! Its hard enough holding 80 mph on the M25 let alone 210! The M25s far too busy for that sort of speed. You'd need some where like the new 4 lane section on A1(M) at Peterborough for that - and then you'd be lucky! Not to mention the skylines' brick like aero-dynamics!
210 on the M25 - orbit500
The R34 is quite capable of topping 190mph with mild modifications. The speedo was quite clearly marked in MPH.
If you drive a family saloon it's impossible to appreciate how the big boys shift in such a short distance. No foot to the floor for 5 miles needed to creep past 130mph.
I can touch 150mph half a dozen times on my daily bike commute along the M4 if I remove my brain. And the wind isn't blowing against me !
210 on the M25 - Tony N
Yeah I know how quick the skyline is, I've driven one or two fast cars in my time on and off the track. Its just the M25 ain't the place to go quick, no matter what your driving/riding, the two dirty great canals in lane 1 will put paid to that! There's plenty of nonsense talked about fast cars in that part of the country, especially around the north-east of London....
210 on the M25 - orbit500
Tell me about it ! the number of pinnochio-pilots swanning around the outer orbits of london and in the prvinces is astonishing.
One chap in my office has a 97 Golf 1.8S and boasted of regularly doing 120mph on the short stretch of the A33 dual carriageway just south of Reading. So one day I got so fed up trying to correct him I drove us straight to the local VW garage and took away a test drive V6 Golf ( I am a respectable businessman in the day which comes in handy ). On the same road, he was anxious at 120mph, scared at 135mph and terrified at 150 ( or as close as dammit ). Especially when I answered his question as to why I didn't want to buy one of these cars ( he is a Golf fanboy ) by showing how it fishtailed when braking hard downhill at 140 to 100 and how on the back lanes it flicks from front to 4 wheel drive when drifting.
If you look at the min radius of curvature for .6g grip at 200mph it comes out at about 1400m. Quite small compared to 99% of motorway I would suppose. It sure aint a hairpin !
210 on the M25 - Flat in Fifth
Thinking back to the old Backroom but unable to find the thread....

Did we ever get an answer as to

a) what the design speed of motorways is and
b) what the definition of design speed actually is.

210 on the M25 - chrishillcoat
Flat in Fifth: < >

I heard that the design speed is 130kph, by which I mean corners should be able to be taken at that speed.

The one exception to this (other than dubious motorway upgrades) is the M40 at Oxford.

Head over to groups.msn.com/thesabreroadswebsite and ask the same question, I imagine you'll get a response from someone who knows what they're talking about... ;-)

Chris Hillcoat
Reading, UK
210 on the M25 - BrianW
"I heard that the design speed is 130kph, by which I mean corners should be able to be taken at that speed."

I am sure that speed, 81 1/4 mph, is far too low. I can't think of a single motorway corner, other than, of course on slip roads, that would only be negotiable safely at that speed in reasonable conditions.
Is a margin of error built in, I wonder, say 25% extra?
Or is the design speed taken to be for an old lady in an Austin 7 on bald tyres in the rain?

Still learning (I hope)
210 on the M25 - Andrew-T
Of course these speeds should be kept to the race-track, if only because everyone else is there for that purpose, and knows what that is. Ludicrous idea to try it in competition with the general public, and rather presumptuous to imagine one can be 100% certain there are no cars/obstacles ahead.
210 on the M25 - Ben {P}
I'd hate to see what would happen if he drove over a brick, or a scrap of a blown tyre etc at that speed.

210 on the M25 - matt35 {P}

I don't know how to do this, but maybe you or Mark can insert a link to the Darwin Awards website - 1995 - Jet Assisted Take Off?
This story has been disproved, but maybe the driver of the Skyline will eventually be posted on the Darwin Awards site - the motto is 'contributed to the human gene pool by removing himself from it'

Not against speed in the right place - but felt it fast enough at 120mph on the Millbrook constant speed circuit last month.
210 on the M25 - Dave_TD
Try Millbrook at 155mph then, I have, and I'm in no hurry to do it again. Cavalier Turbo 6spd 4wd on the limit, no thanks, roll cage or no.

The link to the Darwin Awards JATO car page is here:


Just open a new browser window, find the page on there you want to link to, highlight all of the address, right-click on it and select "copy", come back here, position your cursor where you want the link to go, right-click and select "paste". It comes up as a valid link when you actually post it to the thread.

210 on the M25 - THe Growler
Anything on the M25!! Earlier this month I had to make 2 very busy and stressful trips to UK. These entailed a lot of driving (Kent, Essex, Norfolk, LHR etc) and as a result I covered a good few miles on the M25 at various times of the day and in varying weather conditions (including that cold snap you had in the first week of Jan). I tell you there were times on that M25 when I was shaken and stirred, genuinely afraid and perpetually nervous. The antics of truck drivers, bullying other vehicles around, the terrifying high speed tailgating that was simply ALL the time, the undertaking not so much, that's normal in most countries, but the sheer closeness coupled with speed that people drive at. Drivers of BMW's who seem to think their vehicle is an extension of a certain body part and drive accordingly, the cutting in, the violent bunchups where the whole world lights up with red stoplights and you pray not only you will make it in time but that the guy behind does as well. The same on the A roads, everyone gives you the impression they're in a tearing hurry, that you are in their way and devil take the hindmost. No, I don't dawdle. Mostly I did 80 when I could safely and STILL I oftentimes got hassled. I'm not as young as I was, and maybe I'm just a country boy in the big city nowadays but how anyone gets much pleasure out of UK driving beats me.

I am joining the M25 via a slip road. Moderate snow is falling, it is early evening. The road is greasy (Biker experience notes that fact!) I am winding my rental up to join the heavy mainstream traffic, I know I'm doing 60 mph because I just looked. Literally out of nowhere (I looked in my mirror not 2 secs ago) howl two sportsbikes, cut in front of me with inches to spare and literally wheelie (front wheel in the air), in the snow, between the traffic, splitting lanes and gone like a cool breeze, to quote Chuck Berry. They had to be going 90, possibly even more. Aside from their own antics and the risk they were running what havoc might have been caused if someone (maybe a car, not even them) had panicked? I really wanted to stop and settle down my nerves but of course in a situation like that I couldn't.

Now I have driven in more countries than you can shake a stick at, a wide variety of vehicles. I've done Highway 101 out of Burlingame in the Friday rush hour before Thanksgiving, Iranian mountain passes, Delhi on any day, and so on. Not a boast, it's a fact and has been job-related. I live in a place where traffic rules and regulations are honored more in the breach more than the observance, altercations are occasionally resolved at pistol point, where if a cop stops you it's an even chance it's beer money he's after, and where I routinely see stuff every day which would make your hair curl. Even our own meticulous DVD if he was back on the force couldn't fill up in a lifetime of police-issue notebooks what happens here. In a word, fairly close to anarchy. I am definitely not a nervous driver, but give me Filipino traffic anarchy any day. That old M25 knocks the socks off 'em for chills and thrills. I was glad to get back to the familiar chaos. Just take it easy, you guys.
210 on the M25 - Tony N
If you like the M25 you'll love the M6 J8-10a at 7:30 in the morning, its like accidently wondering onto Snetterton during one of those truck races!
210 on the M25 - matt35 {P}
Thanks for link and info on how to post HTML links.
I am impressed at your 155mph at Millbrook - the sight of an exact version of my X-Type in BRG at stopped on the inside lane every lap kept me to 120 although John Lyon had it over 130 with a bit in hand.
210 on the M25 - Dave_TD
Mm-hmm, they have very strict hazard procedures there, I know if someone's going for a flat-out run they will clear the outside lane and warn other cars using the track of what's going on. Still un-nerving though, seeing all these professional test-drivers move aside to let you try not to kill anybody! I don't think I'll be doing it again. The proximity to the crash barrier and the force of the cornering are enough to remind you of the enormous speeds and forces involved, something you're likely to forget in a straight line in the centre lane of a 3-lane motorway.
210 on the M25 - matt35 {P}

We picked up a radio before entering Millbrook and it was in the car all the time to warn us of anything untoward, or let us report anything we had done wrong.
The Armco does get nearer - the pre drive warnings about not swerving for birds or animals begin to make sense over 100 or so?
Not on the constant speed circuit - on another part of Millbrook - there was only me and a test driver.
I was desperately trying to follow John Lyons instruction about getting the apex right - watching the mirror to let the test car through so I would not hold him up.
Later, I think I learned something....the test driver did not go when I put the left indicator or held up my left hand ..he waited and gave me space - possibly had a laugh - and overtook me about every second lap.
I think I learned what a lot I still have to learn!
210 on the M25 - matt35 {P}

The other X was in a kind of parking area - not inside lane - sorry.
Trying to post Millbrook layout PDF as a link.


If this works, it's down to you!

210 on the M25 - Dave_TD
It works!

Incidentally, the top part of the hill route is the highest surfaced road in Bedfordshire.
210 on the M25 - dave18
Hi again forum.
Read this post and what I believe is as follows,
Derestriction at certain times on certain stretches could be a good idea, with 'safety' cameras deserving their name in areas that were still restricted?
210 on the m25 is excessive though, and as for slight bends feeling like 'hairpins' well its probably down to the quality of the car's roadholding. Certainly scared myself on the m4 when I nudged 125 in the 309, revs in red-line, obviously pushed past its limit (it was downhill and probably with lots of wind behind.) A very slight bend was indeed a struggle. This by the way was at about 1am on a tuesday.
210 on a truly long, straight stretch at a very quiet time of night may not be so daft.
Modified Skylines can exceed 200 by the way - the engines can be modified to a worrying 1000+bhp (from 2.6 litres, wonder how long theyd last?)
210 on the M25 - dave18
Meant to add, the danger will always be the crawler in the middle/outside and so on, such things should be dealt with but probably won't. A higher speed limit then, is the solution.
By the way, wonder how Bugatti are going to prove 252mph the Veyron should manage?
210 on the M25 - Tony N
Modified Skylines can exceed 200 by the way - the engines
can be modified to a worrying 1000+bhp (from 2.6 litres, wonder
how long theyd last?)

About 5 minutes if your lucky! Someone I know entered the Silver State Classic (Basically a legal cannonball run on a closed highway)in the US, Apparently the moded Skylines didn't even make the 1st couple of K's!
210 on the M25 - matt35 {P}
Dave, Thanks for info - Andy Warhol said that everyone can be famous for twenty minutes?
To all of you in Bedfordshire - I almost sh!t on the highest surfaced road in your county last December!

210 on the M25 - delboy100
I have to add my 'tuppence worth' on this...

The whole point of someone driving '210 mph on the M25' seems utterly ridiculous to me...what thrill do they get from it? It takes absolutely no 'skill'...No really...no skill at all! A monkey could do it!

One of my cars is a BMW E30 M3...It's not the fastest car in a straightline...but so what? If anyone thinks it's "Too slow" all that means is that they're slowing down too much for corners!

This argument will I believe hold for quality performance cars from many other manufacturers too??

210 mph is idiotic for anywhere except the Mulsanne Straight at Le Mans..and proves nothing on a public road. Even F1 cars rarely pull 210 mph...are the silly little rich boys who pull 210 mph on public motorways where 'Joe Public' may have his family on the road in their family saloon trying to prove they have 'bigger balls' than 'Joe Public'? If they are perhaps they's like to compare the size of their balls against me in my M3 on a wet,dark and deserted Scottish B-Road in the rain?!
210 on the M25 - Steve G
I wonder what the stopping distance would be at this speed ??
Probably could be measured in junctions ;-)
Agree with you delboy, no skill whatsoever to drive a car at this speed just a severe lack of self-preservation required.
With the variable speed limits on the M25 it could be possible to raise limits when traffic is light (120MPH max).
210 on the M25 - Another John H
The formula used for (imperial measure) Highway code figures is
Speed in MPH squared, divided by 20, equals stopping distance in feet.

Obviously compounds have improved since this was devised, but it gives some idea: 2205 feet.

It's a long way...
210 on the M25 - Morris Ox
So I presume his insurance covered him for driving at this speed? That he's got adequate funds to cover the clearing up of him,, his car, the road furniture and whatever else it hits when it finally lands?

156 on the A90, 210 on the M25? The speed is the easy bit. It's what happens when you hit a bird, fox, have to change direction. That's when you'd realise that no matter how fast the car was going, you're always ten steps behind it.
210 on the M25 - dave18
210 is excessive but the 70 limit introduced years and years ago is still wrong. *Some* stretches of motorway could be derestricted or subject to fairly high limits and at the end of the day if you hit a bird/fox/whatever at 65, 70 ur still going to be in trouble. There's always a place when speed is safe and as a passenger I feel far more comfortable sitting in the outside lane at 90-100 (when traffic is quiet) than in the inside at 50-60 negotiating lorries and junctions.
210 on the M25 - Rojer
I must admit then when I first started driving in my 1.3 Astra, I thought 70mpg was REALLY the top safe limit for any car on the motorway.

Now that I've progressed up to an S-class, I can appreciate what people have been going on about ll these years!

Perhaps they should increase the limit to 90. Over that, I think the mixed British motorway driving 'skills' we have in this country would become the limiting factor.

(Yes, that pointed to all you loonies who think that the middle lane is the medium-to-fast lane where you shuold be at the speeds of 64.5 to 79.5 miles an hour. No matter what)

210mph! On the M25? Wow ...

But stupid

Astra, Renault 18, Renault 25 TXi, Astra Est, Passat Est, Mercedes 190E, Mercedes
210 on the M25 - Dynamic Dave
I thought 70mpg was REALLY the top safe limit
for any car on the motorway.

Or even 70mph ;o) Want me to edit it?


Value my car