But why do these accidents happen at all? Do cars and lorries regularly cruise half on the hard shoulder, and then not notice when a parked car looms up, or is there something about a stationery vehicle that causes people to drive into it? Neither seems very likely. I am not aware of seeing vehicles regularly driving down the hard shoulder - is this a problem?
I can see that there is a kind of suction effect if someone is changing an offside wheel, but that is simply that the shoulder is not wide enough.
If hard shoulders are not safe places to stop in, then there seems little point in having them. Why not just regular laybyes, wide and long enough for safe stops for all vehicles?
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This is a real digression but why not allow bikes to use the HS in stationary traffic with a 30 limit.
Has to be safer than using lane 2a. (Although not as exciting.)
A bike isn't going to hold up a fire engine.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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No, but the 30 limit would get broken by a few unobservant twits, then people on the hard shoulder would get hurt.
Last week the M20 was closed on my way to work. Some cars began driving down the hard shoulder, at 25-30 mph in my estimation. 100 metres or so in front of me, one of them piled into the back of a stationary, broken down car.
Speed isn't the issue, it's sufficient observation for the speed.
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No, but the 30 limit would get broken by a few unobservant twits, then people on the hard shoulder would get hurt.
No different to using 2a in my opinion.
Speed isn't the issue, it's sufficient observation for the speed.
Don't let Trevor hear you say that!
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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>> No, but the 30 limit would get broken by a few >> unobservant twits, then people on the hard shoulder would get hurt. No different to using 2a in my opinion.
Just the suggestion that there is more likely to be people "loose" on the hard shoulder than in lane 2a.
>> Speed isn't the issue, it's sufficient observation for the speed. Don't let Trevor hear you say that!
Already have, he's responded. We disagree!!
-- P********** Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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>> No different to using 2a in my opinion. >> Just the suggestion that there is more likely to be people "loose" on the hard shoulder than in lane 2a.
Undoubtedly true, but how true. In lane 2a a door could open or someone could change lanes. It's *more* likely that the latter will happen into the HS so that will inevitably keep speeds down a fair bit. You can never legislate for someone who ignores obvious dangers. Although evolution *has* catered for these people... A massive advantage of the HS to bikers is that theres the grass for escape purposes. Looks a bit softer than the escape routes in 2a.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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ToTH
As a daily biker using a bit of motorway which is frequently congested, I would be against bikes, or any other class of vehicle except emergency services, using the hard shoulder.
The hard shoulder is there for a specific purpose i.e. breakdowns and emergency services and should be kept for that use. If bikes started using it I am sure they would soon be followed by an increasing number of cars and then its function is lost.
Yes, I use lane 2a but at a regulated speed never above 30 mph and usually nearer 20. Still faster than the stationary or crawling traffic but slow enough to take avoiding action if someone changes lanes without looking.
The minority of bikers who do that at 50 or 60 have only themselves to blame if they get into trouble.
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ToTH As a daily biker using a bit of motorway which is frequently congested, I would be against bikes, or any other class of vehicle except emergency services, using the hard shoulder. The hard shoulder is there for a specific purpose i.e. breakdowns and emergency services and should be kept for that use. If bikes started using it I am sure they would soon be followed by an increasing number of cars and then its function is lost.
A poor argument. Cars would still *not* be allowed to use the HS. Yuo can't make laws assuming people will break them.
Yes, I use lane 2a but at a regulated speed never above 30 mph and usually nearer 20. Still faster than the stationary or crawling traffic but slow enough to take avoiding action if someone changes lanes without looking.
Me too. Never looked at the clock but I can always stop on sixpence filtering. My point holds true. You could legally do 70 and the speed limit freaks on this site would see no problem in that.
The minority of bikers who do that at 50 or 60 have only themselves to blame if they get into trouble.
But if you can get in behind one you can use them as a shield....
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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But why do these accidents happen at all? Do cars and lorries regularly cruise half on the hard shoulder, and then not notice when a parked car looms up, or is there something about a stationery vehicle that causes people to drive into it? Neither seems very likely. I am not aware of seeing vehicles regularly driving down the hard shoulder - is this a problem?
Sorry Cliff, but I am very aware of this problem. On my drive to work I often see lorries (rather than cars) drifting off across onto the hard shoulder. They cannot be aware of thier surroundings. The ones I have managed to observe (the RHD ones) are ususlly eating, on the phone, or sleeping.
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3 issues cause this,
1) inattention, as in Andy S post sleeping etc
2) looking at the breakdown magically causes some people to steer at it.
3) deliberate acts. Yes I know it seems strange, but there are some twits out there who deliberately drive at someone on the hard shoulder in order to give them a fright. I've seen it happen and had it done, hopped over the barrier smartish. Now that would be the case for a murder charge IMHO.
(PS twits is not the spelling I would have chosen but the alternative would have given Mark and the language filter palpitations)
As for Toads suggestion about the hard shoulder for mbikes, unfortunately it just takes one idiot not looking in his mirrors plus over shoulder lifesaver and suddenly the emergency services have two problems to deal with. Primary purpose any journey, get to the other end in one piece, too many forget that as far as I'm concerned.
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Cliff Pope -
"If hard shoulders are not safe places to stop in, then there seems little point in having them"
Surely the whole point of this issue is that hard shoulders are *not* safe places to stop - my understanding has always been that they are primarily intended to enable emergency services vehicles to get through to any accident or incident if the motorway is otherwise blocked.
That said, it is inevitable that some road users are going to use them as temporary stopping places, rather than take to the verge (which may or may not be accessible due to embankments, cuttings, bridges et al). So, since it seems most unlikely that wider, safer, or dedicated space is going to become available for stopping in, wider education on the safest course of action to take in the event of an "unavoidable need to stop" would appear to be the order of the day.
Toad -
Recalling that your posts normally come with an implied smiley, I suspect that loud derisory laughter would be more appropriate with respect to your current suggestion!
Jack
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They may not be "safe", but a disabled vehicle in the N/S lne would be even more dangerous.
BTW. Coming along the M4 towards Reading I often see those motorists who are too stupid to get themselves in the N/S ready to come off, now actuall ystop in the middle lane until a gap opens for them to get into. My that must beat queueing for an extra minute or so!!!!!
What a pain for those who are not allowed to use the O/S lane! i.e. HGV, trailors, caravans et al.
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Graham - I couldn't agree more, and I'm sure no one would seriously suggest stopping in the nearside lane, rather than the verge as precised above.
What do our driving instructors tell their pupils, and does the Highway Code offer any enlightenment?
Jack
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may I add to this stupidity the twits going north on the M42 in evening rush hour, too impatient to wait in the lane 1 queue at the A446 junction who pull out into lane 2, (yes that includes YOU black Golf GTI!) and then stop in lane 2 because no one will let them back into lane 1 queue.
grrrrrr!
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Toad - Recalling that your posts normally come with an implied smiley, I suspect that loud derisory laughter would be more appropriate with respect to your current suggestion!
Genuinely glad you don't take me too seriously.
Just remind me why bikes shouldn't use the HS instead of lane 2a?
What about bus lanes? Is it wrong to let bieks use bus lanes?
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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What about bus lanes? Is it wrong to let bieks use bus lanes?
Of course it's wrong to let bikes (or bieks) use bus lanes. Buses are how we are all to travel in future, and no alternative must be offered to the public, especially one which combines freedom and flexibility with easy parking and cheap running costs. We will be made to like buses, even if it takes forever. In fact, all bikes should be fitted with three foot wide stabiliser bars on each side for "safety" reasons (and to further reduce their advantage over the sacred bus) and should only be allowed to park in normal car-sized parking bays (one bike per bay).
Or perhaps I shouldn't give the Department of Transport ideas.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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[snip stirring stuff for New Labour's next party conference]
I think you have a promising political career in front of you...
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Have now found what the Highway Code has to say about Breakdowns. Perhaps better covered than expected, and plenty of references to getting off the hard shoulder if possible.
I have highlighted certain sections with double asterisks, not least where the wording is at variance with what many of us might have imagined eg. in respect of NOT using warning triangles and NOT undertaking simple repairs, both practices mentioned in earlier posts:
Article 248 Breakdowns
If your vehicle breaks down, think first of other road users and
**get your vehicle off the road if possible**
warn other traffic by using your hazard warning lights if your vehicle is causing an obstruction
put a warning triangle on the road at least 45 metres (147 feet) behind your broken down vehicle on the same side of the road, or use other permitted warning devices if you have them. Always take great care when placing them, but **never use them on motorways**
keep your sidelights on if it is dark or visibility is poor
do not stand (or let anybody else stand), between your vehicle and oncoming traffic
at night or in poor visibility do not stand where you will prevent other road users seeing your lights.
Article 249 Additional rules for the motorway
If your vehicle develops a problem, leave the motorway at the next exit or pull into a service area. If you cannot do so, you should
pull on to the hard shoulder and **stop as far to the left as possible, with your wheels turned to the left**
try to stop near an emergency telephone (situated at approximately one mile intervals along the hard shoulder)
leave the vehicle by the left-hand door and ensure your passengers do the same. You MUST leave any animals in the vehicle or, in an emergency, keep them under proper control on the verge
**do not attempt even simple repairs**
**ensure that passengers keep away from the carriageway and hard shoulder, and that children are kept under control**
walk to an emergency telephone on your side of the carriageway (follow the arrows on the posts at the back of the hard shoulder) - the telephone is free of charge and connects directly to the police. Use these in preference to a mobile phone (see Rule 257)
give full details to the police; also inform them if you are a vulnerable motorist such as a woman travelling alone
return and wait near your vehicle **(well away from the carriageway and hard shoulder)**
if you feel at risk from another person, return to your vehicle by a left-hand door and lock all doors. Leave your vehicle again as soon as you feel this danger has passed.
Laws MT(E&W)R reg 14 & MT(S)R reg 12
I witnessed the aftermath to the M4 accident which started this thread. The car driver concerned, who was initially being treated by the two paramedics for chest pains, was regrettably subsequently killed instantly when the ambulance was struck by a six wheeler, carrying prefabricated steel, which subsequently overturned and spread its load over all three lanes. Another interesting example of why motorway closures can last so long.
The good news is that the two paramedics were not as badly injured as first thought. A lucky escape for them, and for the car passenger, who was also injured but, sadly, not the driver's day.
Jack
PS Toad - so far as I'm concerned "bieks" can use whatever lane they like - so long as they do it on their own planet! Or was this an oblique reference to Yorkshire drivers!?
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PS Toad - so far as I'm concerned "bieks" can use whatever lane they like - so long as they do it on their own planet! Or was this an oblique reference to Yorkshire drivers!?
Come on Union Jack. Lets hear why bike on the HS with a strict speed limit is worse than bikes using lane 2a with a *70* limit.
Don't be shy.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Come on Union Jack. Lets hear why bike on the HS with a strict speed limit is worse than bikes using lane 2a with a *70* limit.
Apart frrom the loony biker issue the answer is several posts back and concerns the bikers safety. Lets make up a scenario.
M25 Watfordish,traffic and weather hellish, biker is doing 30ish on HS, I am doing 45ish in lane one in my elderly BX. Loud bang and illumination of sundry warning lights announces departure of hydraulic belt. Slam on brakes and dive onto HS, forget lifesaver over left shoulder, biker hits back of car goes over roof etc, etc.
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M25 Watfordish,traffic and weather hellish, biker is doing 30ish on HS, I am doing 45ish in lane one in my elderly BX. Loud bang and illumination of sundry warning lights announces departure of hydraulic belt. Slam on brakes and dive onto HS, forget lifesaver over left shoulder, biker hits back of car goes over roof etc, etc.
45ish in stationary traffic? Surely the point of stationary traffic is that it's stationary? But yeah a car could boil over and pull in out of the stationary traffic. So what? Cars dart accross lane 2a all the time. Only difference there is it's narrower and he limit is 70.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Toady:
Bikes using the hard shoulder would make it more dangerous for those unfortunates whose vehicles have broken down and are stranded there.
Whether you or the majority of bikers would ride with super observation at a speed below the suggested 30 is not the point of my argument. Any change to allow the use of the HS would encourage the twits (not my preferred choice of spelling either but filter-friendly)to ride down there at silly speeds with respect to thier obervation.
Also, car drivers, a small number of whom currently choose to use the HS illegally if it suits them, would be even more tempted if they saw bikers using it.
Andy
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"walk to an emergency telephone on your side of the carriageway (follow the arrows on the posts at the back of the hard shoulder) - the telephone is free of charge and connects directly to the police. Use these in preference to a mobile phone (see Rule 257) "
Have you ever tried to use a roadside phone on a motorway? It's almost impossible due to traffic noise.
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Just remind me why bikes shouldn't use the HS instead of lane 2a?
Have you ever seen the debris on the hard shoulder? Remains of remould tyres, exhausts, ect. Surely allowing a little extra time for your journey is better than umpteen punctures!!
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The point I was trying to make at the start of this thread was that although we can assume that road USERS can be ignored, even over matters of safety, if the EMPLOYERS of these brave men and women who are compelled to stop on the hard shoulder as part of their job were to take the 'duty of care' for their employees seriously, they must surely refuse to allow them to put themselves at risk. i.e. They must demand from the highways authority a safer working environment or withdraw their cover.
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Reading through this thread and some of the lunatic acts commited by drivers, I just wonder why everyone has got on their high horse about the cyclist 'issue'?
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My occupation is as a recovery driver and as such spend a bit of time on the hard shoulders of the M42 in Warwickshire. You are quite correct in that it is quite a dangerous place to be, but it my opinion it is not as bad as some other locations on the side of the road in the UK. For example I recovered a car a couple of months back that was stranded in lane 1 on a two lane dual carriageway just over the brow of a hill, and yes I observed one truck that came over the brow of the hill and had to lock up its brakes to slow down as it saw the hazard straight ahead of it. At least on the hard shoulder you don't generally have vehicles heading straight at you in your lane. The secret is to stay on the nearside of your vehicle and never turn your back on the oncoming traffic as then you won't be watching and able to react to the one idiot heading straight for you.
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Dynamic Dave - It wouldn't be compulsory to use the HS. If there's debris just rejoin in lane 1a.
Richard J - Agree about roadside assistance guys & they are well aware of the danger. An AA guy once told me to get rid of the Rover because it was irresponsible to keep an unreliable car because if it breaks down on the motorway some poor blokes got to risk life and limb to get it. 'Course that was *many* thousands of miles ago. ;-) Brave blokes though.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Toad,
Bit off topic, but if you look in my profile, you'll find my email. Send me a note so I have your return email address and I will make you laugh by return. It's a rather jolly bike based mpeg.
All welcome.
V
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So, can I just get this clear - the correct procedure if suffering a sudden tyre deflation on a motorway, even to a nearside wheel, is to stop as close in as possible, and then walk to the nearest phone, and call for assistance?
I should not use a warning triangle, even if the nearer phone is backwards and I could conveniently place a triangle on my way to the phone.
I wait on the verge for someone to come. Does that person change the wheel for me, or call up a breakdown truck?
Is this a free service, or is it assumed I use my own breakdown cover? How do I contact them from the motorway phone? It is a conditin that they must be called first, and will not provide cover if recovery has already commenced.
This all seems to involve a lot of people, and means leaving a vulnerable vehicle waiting for someone to ram into it for the longest possible time. Or perhaps one should drive (slowly?, on the hard shoulder?), to the next slip road, regardless of what that does to the tyre, rim, road surface?
Another thought - if a caravan tyre has burst, should it be unhitched and the car and occupants driven to safety?
It has not happened to me yet, but I should like to know.
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"Another thought - if a caravan tyre has burst, should it be unhitched and the car and occupants driven to safety?"
Only if you are willing to let the scroats have free run of your caravan and contents. Seen it happen, they start to pull up and as soon as they see someone is there up the embankment watching they scram sharpish. Wicked world.
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Obviously the conventional hard shoulder has enough danger but, as I found, there is also the narrow version.
Some years ago I was leaving East Belfast, crossing the M3 overpass onto the shore motorway, the M2. There's a 50 limit here and the hard shoulder, as I remember is not much more than the width of my, then, Cavalier. It's a bridge so it has to be narrow overall.
I heard a thump and a continuing loud rattle so I had to pull in. I couldn't go on to the M2 since I'd then have had to cross 3 more LH lanes to reach the proper hard shoulder.
I found a triangular clip of .25" steel (about 18" long,tapering from 1.5" to zero, from a scrap lorry?) embedded in the floor of the car, sharp end up between the driver's seat and the sill.
The good news was that it had missed the brake pipe. The bad news that I had to wriggle it free while placing my valuable body in, or very close to, the LH lane of two.
Fortunately the skilled car drivers in the commuter traffic actually pulled out to give me room, I suspect that with Sunday drivers I might not have been so lucky.
It gave me new respect for places like bridges and tunnels where the hard shoulder is narrow and I now appreciate better the lower speed limit here.
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