Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - oilrag
Saw one of those westfield/lotus 7 type things smashed up last weekend. It was 100 yards on past a slow traffic light controlled curve that led onto the 30mph ring road, it had had leapt backwards up the pavement smashed sideways and gone backwards a further 30 yards scraping down the wall.

There it was crushed by the sideways impact and sitting fully on the pavement facing oncoming traffic.

It looked like it had been given full throttle on the curve, spun and then took off on hitting the kerb. There was a high wall behind the pavement and a pedestrian would have had nowhere to go if one had been present.
A guy about my age (old enough to know better) was standing next to it not making eye contact with passing traffic.

Point is, with traction control and front wheel drive making powerful cars safer from spins, should this type of car need advanced training like a big bike in order to be licensed to drive one?
I`m refering to powerful rear wheel drive where there is no traction control or where it can be switched off.
You can`t go straight from a 100cc bike to a 500cc even. Why should someone who has never driven rear wheel drive be let on the road in one of these?

Regards
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - Screwloose

In my youth it was always young football types that those things killed. One ripply bend on a wet night and you loaded it in pieces.

Now they all seem to be driven by the generation that had pre-war drophead convertibles back then - but they're no less lethal.

No weight to make wide tyres grip and the instant response of multipoint injection must make them worse if anything - at least a pair of DCOEs on a Ford twin-cam were fairly progressive.

Does the BSM even run an Advanced Driving course anymore? I can't see the great I-AM being much use in one of them?
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - Lud
Yeah, not everyone can be let loose in a Westfield or similar. You see them stuffed up the scenery in the most unlikely places. Why would one be graunched into the central reservation on the way out of an easy roundabout on an A road in the dry? Diesel fuel? High tune and sticky throttle cable? Anyway they take people by surprise, on the road too.

It's obvious you need a tiptoe approach for a very long time after you get one of those. They can bite.

Must say I#d like a go in one with a decent (but not absurdly ferocious) engine.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - Screwloose

The few times that I've driven one [some TVRs are just as bad] it's been terrifying. It only takes one tiny bump for them to go from "on rails" to "scene of the accident" - in milliseconds.

Although they're very catchable; the slightest lapse in white-knuckle concentration and you're history.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - spikeyhead {p}
I owned a 1700cc ford with two twin webbers powered Caterham for a while. No other car has before or since has put such a grin on my face and I've owned a good few quick cars.

However, trying to negotiate a wet roundabout would result in the back end stepping out. It wasn't really a case of doing it deliberately. If you're stationary at a roundabout you have to accelerate onto it. The steering wheel isn't pointing straight so the back end would step out. It was supremely easy to catch, I never had a problem with the general direction of the car and it was small enough to keep on my side of the road even when very sideways. What did concern me was the reaction of people driving towards you who had never seen a car traveling towards them in a mostly sideways stance. In fairness, I don't think I've ever had one come towards me, so its not entirely surprising.

I never really found bumps to unsettle the car, but I think that the Caterham chassis is better then many of the lookalikes, it was just 130bhp and negligible weight over the rear wheels meant that if you couldn't opposite lock without thinking about it then you'd crash teh car every time you drove it in the wet.

As far as an extra test before you can drive them? where do you draw the line? The people paying huge insurance premiums are the young, in 1.2 Corsas &c, the same people who have most recently passed their test. Most "Seven" type cars are driven by the middle aged, who have plenty of experience, they're rarely crashed, probably less so than MX5's and the ilk.

So on that basis, I reckon that anyone wanting to drive an insurance group 1 or 2 car should pass an additional test, mostly relating to being able to control their hormones.

Anyone that wants to drive an MX5 or similar needs to pass a test showing that they're suffering from mid life crisis but are too poor to do it in style.

Anyone wanting to drive a BMW needs to pass a test showing that they understand the use of indicators.

Anyone wanting to drive a Boxster has to prove that they really can't afford a proper Porsche.

Anyone wanting to benefit from the economy of a common rail diesel, particularly a Ford one, should pass a test showing that they understand the economics of them going wrong.

Anyone else got any suggestions for yet more government interference in our lives or should we just accept that we all have some personal responsibility to drive within our talents.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - gordonbennet
I wonder if you have the answer hidden in your OP, these vehicles are obviously bought for fun, and i don't blame anyone who can afford them.

How many of the type of person who can afford a purely fun car like these (probably fairly mature anyway) will also be able to afford the very safe and easily controlled high performance luxury car for their everyday transport and have simply forgotten just how volatile these superlight and powerful cars can be on the road, and as Screwloose ( i think) mentioned they are probably on very wide summer tyres anyway which will be next to useless on a cold even mildly damp road.

I've been racking my feeble brains thinking of which recent modern high performance cars could possibly be any good to get the feel of one of these little flyers, the only one that springs up is the nissan 200sx, loads of power and superlight on the back, with rwd and no traction control.

I think virtually every car that could stand a hope of giving this sort of power to weight in the last ten years would have had asr or traction anyway.

Go back 20 years or more and you come up with the likes of sierra cosworth, and not much else RWD without traction.

Just what could the owner of one of these little flyers have been using to keep his or her hand in?
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - SteVee
I'd agree - sort of.
I was intending to buy a caterham - until I frightened myself by parking one across the front of an SUV. I then took the motorcycle test, and followed that by the advanced bike test.

I've done the advanced car test and the advanced bike test is way better.
Training is available for motorcycles that goes far beyond what is generally available for car drivers. Orgs such as Rapid Training take motorcycle training beyond the IAM stage - and will probably take on a caterham driver.

However, for any prospective buyer of a powerful sports car, I would suggest doing the bike training and then go back to the car. Once you've got the bike, you won't want the car.
I view a motorcycle as safer than the caterham - especially something like a BMW 1200GS
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - doctorchris
As a Panda owner I visit the Panda section of www.fiatforum.com quite frequently and am amazed at the number of tales of Panda 100hp's being written off. These cars are relatively powerful in relation to their size, quite tall and have skittish handling which seems to catch out the young people who buy them due to their relatively low cost and cheapish insurance. Fortunately they do seem to protect their occupants well in an accident and no fatalities have been recorded (though dead men don't post).
However, it's not only Caterhams and Westfields that catch people out.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - Alby Back
I think it's possibly also to do with what type of vehicle a person developed their early skills on. I think that if you were brought up on RWD cars with no ABS or traction control that a "seven" would still feel intuitively easier to drive than if that experience were limited to more modern or recent FWD cars which have very different handling characteristics.

For anyone who may consider buying or building a seven type car in the future all I can tell you is that my Westfield is sadly, badly missed !
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - lotusexige
I do tend to agree that these days people learn to drive in an FWD car, possibly move on to a hot hatch and maybe a RWD with things like traction control so that whne they do get into something like a Cateram it is a complete new world.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - cheddar
>>I think it's possibly also to do with what type of vehicle a person developed their early skills on. I think that if you were brought up on RWD cars with no ABS or traction control that a "seven" would still feel intuitively easier to drive than if that experience were limited to more modern or recent FWD cars which have very different handling characteristics. >>

Agreed, going from a Dolomite Sprint, RS2000, 2002Tii etc to a Caterham would be natural.

130 odd bhp on 175 section tyres, perhaps a live axle and when TC meant Twin carbs and ESP was talking to another world, in fact ESP could be useful in Sprint if it enabled you to see the wet leaves before you entered the corner!


EDIT: Spellin'

Edited by cheddar on 13/02/2008 at 11:27

Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - Sofa Spud
There were several Westfields at the Longleat hillclimb a few years ago. They were impressive little cars. .........Then came the Westfield V8, with a Rover engine - it snaked all over the place as the driver fought to keep control (he succeeded).
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - Morris Ox
This goes right to the heart of one of my pet theories.

Two separate problems: too much traffic, too many speed cameras.

Solution? The same for both. Make the driving test harder - taking into account, for example, the psychology of driving and readng the road ahead - and I guarantee more people would fail the test. Also, an awful lot of people who fail a test that puts these skills at its heart are precisely the people whose accidents are down to misjudging speed.

Speed cameras? A sledgehammer to crack a nut. If speed kills, why is taking pictures of people already doing it any kind of solution?

This isn't just about people in Westfields or whatever. It's about all drivers in all cars understanding just how complex driving really is.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - Group B
Make the driving test harder - taking into account for
example the psychology of driving and reading the road ahead


I agree Morris. Do the above and add some proper car control tuition, such as skid pan training. On driving lessons you dawdle about at 25mph, then after passing your test you have to teach yourself how to drive at higher speeds in a much wider variety of situations.
My driving instructor used to say that to me, "what I will teach you is how to pass the driving test, not necessarily how to drive."

This isn't just about people in Westfields or whatever. It's about all drivers in all
cars understanding just how complex driving really is.


Oilrag's description of the crash brings to mind when we had the sub-zero temps and icy roads before Xmas. We spent a night in the Cotswolds and on the way there on the A429 we saw a Focus on its side in a ditch. On the way home the next day, on a different road but within a few miles of the Focus, there was an Avensis (IIRC) on its roof at the side of the road, partly burnt out.
These were modern FWD cars with 'forgiving handling' about as far removed from a Caterham type thing as you can get.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - perleman
I have now almost spun the boxster a few times, the point at which it seems to break free is if you put too much throttle on, even at low speed - dual carriageway roundabouts @ 50 are no problem, but doing a tight corner in 1st or 2nd gear seems to be the problem. SOme basic RHD handling course would have been good on purchase but the bloke I bought the car from wouldn't have been up for it I think.

"Anyone wanting to drive a Boxster has to prove that they really can't afford a proper Porsche" I think I could quite easily pass that particular test BTW but why isn't the Boxster a proper Porsche? Engine in same mid-position as original 353 and water cooling introduced at same time as 911. Rest my case.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - spikeyhead {p}
"Anyone wanting to drive a Boxster has to prove that they really can't afford a
proper Porsche" I think I could quite easily pass that particular test BTW but why
isn't the Boxster a proper Porsche? Engine in same mid-position as original 353 and water
cooling introduced at same time as 911. Rest my case.


I know, I own one, just though t it sensible to include my own cars in the list that also required BMW drivers to take tests on indicators.
Racer type cars, new advanced driving test? - ijws15
Coming back to the original post we have graduated tests for bikes, why not do the same for cars.

i.e. First test allows you to drive cars of 75hp or less.

2 years experience without accident and further test leads to 100hp etc.

But really what is the point, those who want to will drive them without passing the test, as they do now!