@replies 2 & 3
Pretty much my assessment really-I do know the feeling that being overtaken 'pointlessly' gives you-especially if you know you are the kind of driver who would be going along at a cracking pace if the road were clear.
The above situation happened to me this morning (as the overtaker I add!)-of course you will have to take my word for it that it was a safe and legal overtake etc. For the record what was my reaction to being cut up on the roundabout and having to brake to avoid a collision? Nothing. I didn't flash him, visibly swear or tail gate him, I just carried on driving as normal; that is with a safe following distance. Didn't want to give him the satisfaction.
On reflection it was a pointless overtake as there was no more passing opportunities-I do normally avoid these that is true-but it wasn't illegal or unsafe so it certainly wasn't this guys judgement to make that I shouldn't have done it.
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When she's a passenger in the car non-driver 'er indoors frequently asks whether another driver should have done whatever it was they'd just done. I usually reply that to me it's more a case of whether it was wise for them to have done so rather than whether they should or shouldn't have.
--
L\'escargot.
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@replies 2 & 3
a) If you reply to the specific article, it will clearly show as such because of the threading.
b) The overtaken driver has absolutely no excuse for this dreadfully stupid and childish behaviour.
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Yes the overtaking driver should look to make due progress and overtake when appropriate but part of the consideration that goes into the move is whether it is worth it given the line of traffic and the road furniture which are ahead. Both would suggest that overtaking in THAT PARTICULAR circumstance to be a little pointless albeit legal.
The problem is, when driving a car with a bit of get up and go, the only way to make good progress is quite often only possible by overtaking single cars at a time rather than waiting for a big enough gap to overtake the lorry and the cars following it. If you are a stranger, you aren't to know that there are good reasons ahead which prevent further overtaking when you've only got past the car at the end of the queue. If HE knows the road, he thinks you are a prat, and you FEEL a prat, but the overtaker hasn't done anything intrinsically wrong.
I've been there, done that, as the overtaker but I'm not into the headlight flashing, finger waving and cutting up when I'm the wounded party.
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When someone overtakes me 'pointlessly' like that, I often think and sometimes say out loud: 'Go on then, let's see if you can get past these fifteen tailgating mimsers led by a pony trailer towed by a Volvo from St John's Wood. I can't be bothered to try.'
However, if he then zaps past the lot I have nothing but praise for him. If he doesn't, I know he's feeling embarrassed as I have done after doing that.
But unless he's been very offensive in some way not yet mentioned I don't mind much. I did when young, but of course I was usually the pointless overtaker then.
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I'm with Lud on this - it's a no-brainer.
On the bike, I take virtually every opportunity to overtake - and I can make real progress here. Most traffic understands this and usually co-operates.
Try the same thing in a car though and drivers get really upset !
why ??
The subsequent overtakes sometimes don't happen - but there's usually no reason why I wouldn't take the initial one. I've been shouted at on enough courses for not taking overtakes :-)
If I'm in a car and someone overtakes me, then I just give them the room.
I would be annoyed - with myself - if I hadn't seen them coming
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I take the point that the overtaker might well think that the only way to get past the front vehicle is to overtake the others one at a time. But he must have reasoned that as it is only the first one that has left a 5 second gap, he will then face a much bigger problem getting past the next 5 cars who haven't left such considerate gaps.
So he ought to realise that he will soon have to decide between cutting up each car in turn as he works his way up the line, or finding an opportunity to overtake all at one go, or resign himself to just living in the queue at 40 mph.
It is for that reason that so much overtaking is pointless. You take a small risk, but gain very little. If you go on doing that every day, sooner or later you will misjudge it, or come across a real maniac who reacts by causing an accident.
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or come across a real maniac who reacts by causing an accident.
You come across them all the time. I've lost count of the number of times mimsers have started to accelerate when I have been overtaking them, sometimes with stupid murderous intent, sometimes even more frighteningly entirely unconsciously, quite unaware of what they are doing.
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A couple of years back I was doing some work with a company in Lincoln and had to drive there every week from the midlands. Lots of single-carriageway road with trucks going to Hull etc with long queues behind. If I was at the back of 10+ cars I would wait for next section of dual carriageway - least stressful way to get past, IMHO. All too often though, Mr King-of-the-Road comes up behind and tailgates - half of car over centre line. Then whips out, passes and cuts in sharply because of bend, brow etc., or even on-coming car. This is the sort of thing that winds me up. No problem with a properly executed overtake - but not many drivers know how to do them and this is probably one of the reasons that Lincolnshire has a bad road fatality record.
I had the wind put up me a few times as an IAM Observer when asking drivers to do overtakes - you soon realise that a lot of folks haven't got much anticipation (or imagination!).
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I agree with Aprilia that a lot of drivers overtake badly or dangerously. Any fule kno that you hang back, see the overtaking opportunity approaching and start to go, so that when the time comes you are going at a decent speed and are past quickly and safely. Tailgating is a no-no here as everywhere else even if you have an Audi RS4.
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I think Aprilla's post explains nicely the other side of the arguement.
No one should object to an overtake if it's done safely. The problem is that some drivers overtake and force their way back into the queue, I can understand why drivers get upset at this, although I would not condone doing anything dangerous.
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force their way back into the queue I can understand why drivers get upset at this
The point is you shouldn't have to 'force your way back into the queue'. You only do because people are too close to each other and dreaming with their mouths open like cud-chewing cattle, instead of doing what they are supposed to be doing.
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Any fule kno that you hang back see the overtaking opportunity approaching and start to go so that when the time comes you are going at a decent speed
This is very interesting where, when you know the road, there's a nice straight, with a sweeping bend, then another straight - where the road after the bend can't be seen. You can hang back, then build up speed on the first straight, catching up to overtaking position on the exit from the bend. Either straight past in a wonderful "slingshot" manoeuvre, or slow down to stop the planned overtaking manoeuvre.
I know a stretch like that - wonderful!
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Firstly I agree with what Aprilia is saying, and I can safely say that I am not one of those drivers who hacks up a queue-for the dilemma of the reasons well stated by Cliff Pope-on this occasion I was simply picking off the trailer at the end of the queue in the hope of setting myself up nicely for subsequent overtakes, which in this case never happened anyway.
Secondly I have been lead to believe that the slingshot method of overtaking is not the best or safest technique-I have learned the hold off system, choose gear, get a bit closer, match speed of vehicle to be overtaken, signal, pull out and be sure way is clear, accelerate past then cancel signal and smoothly move back in. I guess the slingshot technique can be safe if the road and conditions can be known with enough safety. Always have an escape route, to account for any eventuality-will an oncoming car appear, what if your engine or gearbox blows up-can you escape safely? That is my methodology.
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Secondly I have been lead to believe that the slingshot method of overtaking is not the best or safest technique-I have learned the hold off system choose gear get a bit closer match speed of vehicle to be overtaken signal pull out and be sure way is clear accelerate past then cancel signal and smoothly move back in.
This is essentially the IAM 'trianglar' overtake method - works for me provided you have reasonable power-to-weight ratio. Allows you to thoroughly check the road ahead before committing to the overtake.
The problem with 'slingshot' is that its difficult to abort once you've built up the speed and pulled out.
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I much prefer the slingshot.........even if you've got a decent power to weight ratio anyway, it gives you much more chance of completing the manouever safely as it minimises your time on the wrong side of the carriageway......if on your slingshot approach you have to abort, then so be it, that should be part of your planning anyway.
i think the whole question of overtaking in the circs described depends on a number of things and for me the length of the journey is the main issue. If i've got a long way to go, i'll always pop them off one at a time, so that eventually i can clear the slow one at the front.
If other peoble don't like it, too bad, perfectly legal and acceptable practice and not for others to judge otherwise. If they don't like overtakers having to 'squeeze in' sometimes, them maybe they'll consider driving properly and leaving an appropriate gap and/or facilitating someone else's progress if they don't want to push on themselves.
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I slingshot too. It takes planning and good timing but its a fabulous satisfying overtake, sometimes the overtakee doesent even realised its happened till you slip gently in front of them.
dont get caught by a slingshotter when you are starting your "pre slingshot hangback" tho
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< Ex RF, Ex TVM >
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You have to maintain concentration to do a proper 'slingshot' as you young folk quaintly call it, and have sound and prompt judgement. It's sometimes a bit tense. But it can be the only way to get past a really malevolent mimser in a powerful car, when you aren't driving one yourself. They don't know what they're doing, but by the er, thing, they manage to do it anyway.
Takes an ace to perform this manoeuvre on modern A roads in a 2CV.
You need to be young really. And of course the younger I was the emptier the roads were.
These days I often find myself simply not bothering. Sit there uttering a stream of very variable stuff, much of it to do with the traffic. But why get a heart attack just to work your way through 60% pure carp?
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Incidentally, what's the IAM view on, say, touching 75mph to minimize wrong-side time during an overtake on an 60mph road?
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a really malevolent mimser
sorry Lud, made me chuckle and I feel i might plagiarise it in the future
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I think he was probably annoyed at not being awake, and missing the oppotunity you took.
On a similar note, there's a lovely bit of A1 just north of Sandy (immediately before the Black Cat roundabout) heading north. It's a 60MPH limit through a left and right, that can be taken by any competent driver in almost any car at 60.
I've often been overtaken just before there, but have then undertaken the overtaker before they've completed the overtake, on the bends. Once most memorably when I was driving a diesel Maestro, by a Porsche - he gave me a most quizzical glare. All the gear, no idea?
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Interesting take on overtaking with the slingshot-I can see the benefits. For example, it can help if you are overtaking the kind of idiot who will speed up deliberately to 'shut you out' when you try to overtake, unless you are in a seriously quick car (my 140bhp is barely enough in such circumstances).
Bathtub I know the section of the A1 you speak of, around the marina. I have to say I slightly disagree with you assessment of the situation. Whilst it is true that the majority of cars can take this section at 60mph, the problem is visibility. You never know how far back from the roundabout traffic will be backed up-for example approaching in the outside lane, for the righthand bend you would not have adequate visibility to do that safely IMO, porsche or metro no difference. Also the reason why I might take that section slower than 60 is simply for reasons of occupant comfort.
Now if you're talking A1, carry on further North before Peterborough there is another left rightl bend series that has the visibility to be taken at high speed safely-assuming you can see there is no traffic waiting to enter the road etc.
Edited by component part on 04/11/2007 at 22:46
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Slingshot overtaking is one of the reasons I want to get rid of the Legacy for a more powerful model, the ratios on the auto box are a real barrier to doing this well - a manual is a much more precise tool in these circs
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The IAM 'triangular' overtake is, like much of the IAM 'system', adapted from police driver training system (a la 'Roadcraft').
I remember having overtaking explained to a group of us 'new' IAM Observers by the police instructor who is a member of our area group and was our IAM examiner at the time. He didn't much care for what you are calling the 'slingshot' for a couple of reasons, IIRC:
1. Very difficult to abort. By the time you are correctly positioned to see if its safe to overtake (i.e. on the other side of the carriageway) you are already going at least 10-20mph faster than the overtaken car and probably level with it. No real option but to hit the brakes and swerve back in - hardly a planned operation.
2. Overtaking decision has to be taken a good way back from optimum; i.e. at the start of the 'slingshot' acceleration.
3. In the triangular method you are pointing the car at where you want to end up, this is not the case with 'slingshot' which typically involves a kind of 'swerve' out and back.
Not saying its not acceptable, but its not a preferred method. I think its all covered in Roadcraft, but can't find my copy at the moment.
Edited by Aprilia on 04/11/2007 at 23:24
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(IAM dislike "slingshot" because of:)1. Very difficult to abort. By the time you are correctly positioned to see if its safe to overtake (i.e. on the other side of the carriageway) you are already going at least 10-20mph faster than the overtaken car and probably level with it. No real option but to hit the brakes and swerve back in - hardly a planned operation.
Sounds like bad driving technique, I'm (not really) surprised at the IAM. You plan and execute this on a road you know. If the circumstances and operation of the plan do not indicate "go" then - you don't - which you'd planned from the beginning, anyway.
You do not need to be "on the other side of the carriageway" to see whether it's OK to overtake.
2. Overtaking decision has to be taken a good way back from optimum; i.e. at the start of the 'slingshot' acceleration.
The decision that this is possible *is* the plan. It's not a spur of the moment action - it cannot possibly be.
3. In the triangular method you are pointing the car at where you want to end up this is not the case with 'slingshot' which typically involves a kind of 'swerve' out and back.
No it does not. "Swerving" in or out when overtaking is beyond the pale.
Edited by FotheringtonThomas on 04/11/2007 at 23:41
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Sounds like bad driving technique I'm (not really) surprised at the IAM.
Yes, the IAM do seem to have a lot of detractors whose ('self taught') techniques are often thought superior. I'm still a member, but don't play an active part these days due to lack of time. I do however have a lot of respect for people who try to improve their driving ( and expose it to the criticism of others) rather than assuming that their own evolved methods are best. As I said, much of the IAM system is merely a simplified adaption of the police driving system.
>>You plan andexecute this on a road you know.
Drivers often have cause to overtake on unfamiliar roads.
>>If the circumstances and operation of the plando not indicate "go" then - you don't - which you'd planned from the beginning anyway.
Don't quite understand that bit.
You do not need to be "on the other side of the carriageway" to see whether it's OK to overtake.
Very often you do. Often you will be wanting to overtake a large and long vehicle - such a vehicle will very likely be obstructing your forward view, even obscuring a smaller vehicle in front of it! Sometimes you can see along the 'nearside' of the vehicle, but a much clearer view of the road ahead (laybys, junctions etc) will be obtained once you pull out. Think about 'limit points' etc.
>> 2. Overtaking decision has to be taken a good way back from optimum; i.e. at >> the start of the 'slingshot' acceleration. The decision that this is possible *is* the plan. It's not a spur of the moment action - it cannot possibly be.
Yes, but some time has elapsed (and speed built up) after you take the decision but before you are on the opposite side of the carriageway. You then get the fairly oft encountered 'run up and brake' when an oncoming vehicle suddenly appears.
>> 3. In the triangular method you are pointing the car at where you want to >> end up this is not the case with 'slingshot' which typically involves a kind of >> 'swerve' out and back. No it does not. "Swerving" in or out when overtaking is beyond the pale.
In the 'slingshot', if I understand it correctly, the driver accelerates toward the target car on his own side of the carriageway before turning to the right to move to the opposing carriageway. At this point the car is at an angle to the 'target' vehicle. You then need to straighten up and turn back toward the left-hand carriageway again.
In the 'triangular' overtake you are travelling parallel to the target vehicle when you start accelerating and then aim at a point back on your own side of the road.
IIRC this is made clear and illustrated in Roadcraft.
I am not suggesting that 'slingshot' is always wrong, but rather that it has its flaws, particularly when dealing with poor forward vision (passing large vehicles etc).
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("slingshot")>>You plan and >> execute this on a road you know. Drivers often have cause to overtake on unfamiliar roads.
Then they *shouldn't use this manoeuvre* in the circumstances mentioned.
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I agree Aprilia. The so-called slingshot is quite often a tense affair, and a very quick and exact decision may need to be taken. But it may be the only thing to do for the next ten miles. I don't quite agree that you can't see what's coming until you are in the other carriageway though. Perhaps when it's really like that the place is no good for overtaking. One has to say though that a wimpish and superstitious - what other cause can there be? - reluctance to get out there often prevents drivers from making progress and indeed makes them obstruct their, er, betters.
Of course a more leisurely sort of overtake is best. Slingshot of course is safest on bits of road you know well.
But we all know that bits of road you know well can sometimes be a bit of a snare and delusion.
Driving while half asleep simply isn't a viable option.
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You have to maintain concentration to do a proper 'slingshot' as you young folk quaintly call it
Bummer, if I'm allowed to say that. If not, "Beemer".
I thought I'd coined "slingshot", some years ago, having never spoken or heard of it except here. Oh, well.
To various - I did mention "On a road you know" (or words to that effect) in particular circumstances.... there's no way that I'd attempt a lunatic manoeuvre, which this would be on a road that I didn't "know".
P.S. If "us young folk" call it "slignshot" (I used this in my own head because of the behaviour and science of comets, etc.) - what do you "old folks" call it?
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You may well have coined it, I've never heard the term before tonight, but it's a good word to describe the process. I sometimes use something like it on the motorway to shift a lane hogger - drop back and allow a big gap to open then accelerate hard and the sight of a car steamming up in the rear view mirror sometimes gets them to shift. Not often, but sometimes.
A better technique on a relatively quiet motorway is to signal very clearly, pause and move into the middle and sometimes if you're following a real dope they move over as well and before they know it you've moved back out and you're on your way past.
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>>what do you "old folks" call it?
I'm not old, but I might call it an overtake with speed in hand.
Number_Cruncher
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overtake with speed in hand.
Why use one word when you can use five.... ;-)
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It is possible the overtaken driver was thinking about overtaking just as you passed.
That does not justify his actions though. But stealing someone's braking space is bad practice, especially if it's an HGV's braking space (I know that wasn't the case here).
Had there been an accident caused by someone further back the queue clipping a car ahead that pulled out to overtake, I'd say both drivers were to blame, 50/50. .... but there wasn't an accident.
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It is possible the overtaken driver was thinking about overtaking just as you passed. That does not justify his actions though. But stealing someone's braking space is bad practice
Nah most unlikely, there was plenty of traffic ahead and the spot I overtook him in was just a couple of hundred metres before the road changed and made any further overtaking unsuitable. He was literally just the driver trailing at the end of the queue as it were, and I picked him off as he had left a very large gap. I overtook in the hope of being in a position to take advantage of subsequent opportunities. He just didn't like being overtaken, or decided I shouldn't have overtaken him because it was somehow unjustified, and he turned judge, jury and executioner.
If I had known his reaction in advance (impossible obviously) I wouldn't have bothered, I'm not into conflict on the road.
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.... the spot I overtook him in was just a couple of hundred metres before the road changed and made any further overtaking unsuitable.
Does not seem to fit with:
I overtook in the hope of being in a position to take advantage of subsequent opportunities.
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Does not seem to fit with: >> I overtook in the hope of being in a position to take advantage >> of subsequent opportunities.
Not correct I am afraid, it does fit. When I say subsequent overtakes I am talking about over the next 10 miles. It is a stretch of road that being single carriageway inevitably is slowed to ~40mph by trucks etc. There are a few good overtaking opportunities but only a few, so it can be worth getting a car or two further ahead when you can else find yourself unable to take advantage of the next opportunity-the subsequent opportunity being a couple more miles away for example. Doesn't always pay off of course, whether it is worth it or not depends on conditions, traffic density etc.
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...... else find yourself unable to take advantage of the next opportunity-the subsequent opportunity being a couple more miles away for example.
So perhaps the other driver was also aware of this fact and why he took umbrage to your overtake.
I don't condone his subsequent actions, though - just trying to offer an explanation.
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