tinyurl.com/a2vsq
I know, we all say we wouldn't buy a car that's been in an accident, but surely if it passes an RAC inspection and the work's been done by someone decent (ie not the people who did Polo, which I'd double check as it's just down the road from this car!), it's got to be worth a look at this price?
Isn't the fact that it'll be worth less when I come to sell it on balanced out by the fact that I'd be paying half what it's worth for it in the first place?
How bad does damage have to be for a virtually new car to get written off?
Any opinions (but particularly straight forward yes or nos which don't then go into a ramble about what car I *should* get instead of a Golf) welcome! :)
Thanks!
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PG
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=35...0
You look at these photos. My car will be written off. There is a fair chance it will be bought as a write off, and may appear on the road.
You want to drive around in a car thats had that done to it?
I would'nt
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A brief search on Google reveals the following on Cat D:
'In brief, categories 'D' and 'C' are deemed uneconomical to repair. 'B' category salvage is to be broken for parts only and 'A' crushed. Therefore, 'A' and 'B' category salvage should never be returned to the road.
But what of 'C' and 'D'? These are cars which have been involved in major accidents but which are simply uneconomical for an Insurer to repair.'
I'd insist on a VERY thorough examination to test the quality of the repair. If the insurance company won't bother, then you'd have to be very sure that whoever repaired the car reckoned they were going to do a good job and still make a profit.
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No, I would not buy that car.
But thats because it's a Golf TDI 100 and not becuase it's Cat D registered.
If I absolutely loved Golfs, I'd be seriously tempted at this opportunity to own one without having to pay an absolute fortune to buy one.
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People get really hung up on cars that are written off & back on the road. Providing you're aware & the price is commensurate then why not. My Porsche was a Cat C now, & was clear on HPI & V5 when I brought it but later came up as Cat C on HPI later, because it turned out that it had taken the insurance Co. 18 months to tell anyone. This meant that it was before V5 notification had come into force so nowt on the V5. But I've been around cars all my life, was happy it had been properly repaired etc. And it came at a price that meant I could afford a better car than otherwise. I've spoken to the previous owner and he has told me what damage their was.
Also bear in mind that cars often get repaired and returned to their owners, these won't sit on any register, I know of a 2 year old Alfa 75 that was written off by the insurance Co. then hawked around repairers until someone was prepared to fix it.
Subsequent Alfa dealers couldn't even spot it had been done! And that wouldn't have shown on Vcar or HPI.
Jim
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Despite being a boring charterd accountant, I just don't think finance is the issue.
You never know whereabouts you might be hit in an accident (I'm assuming you wouldn't hit anyone else!) and you need all parts of your car to be as strong as the manufacturer intended them to be. You can never quite get that if the car has had a major accident repair.
I think your safety is much the most important thing both for you and for those who care about you.
So no.
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Another no from me for financial and practical reasons.
£6k would get you an identical car with 90k on the clock. Personally I'd take my chances that a car that's done a high mileage is more likely to have a genuine mileage and had an easier life (90k of motorway vs. 27k of pottering around town in the cold then BANG!), any accident damage will have been properly repaired if it ever happened at all, and will probably sell for quite a bit more.
If mileage is an issue, get a Focus or a Fabia or a Leon or something older or... well something other than this. It is of course perfectly possible that this car will be fine and an absolute bargain for its next owner, but if the insurance company has said that it's out of there, I'll trust their judgement rather than that of the back street trader or mechanic who's taking a cut from this deal.
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PG: my take on this would be that for a 2002 Golf diesel to be written off, it must have suffered some substantial damage. Even if it was repaired to the highest standard, would it be as strong and offer the same protection as an undamaged car, should (Heaven Forbid) it was involved in a serious accident again?
I'd be interested in other BackRoomers' knowledgeable comments about the strength of repaired cars...
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I'd consider it. RF's will not be a cat D.
www.wcsauto.com/salvage/categories/index.html
The categories are as follows:
# A - Not for resale. Fire damaged (burnt-out), flood damaged (contaminated or salt water), severely damaged with no serviceable parts, or heavily stripped (shell).
Notification of Destruction required. (To be crushed). Recorded at DVLA & HPI.
# B - Not for resale. Damaged beyond economical repair and/or severe structural damage.
Notification of Destruction required. (Parts can be removed and sold). Recorded at DVLA & HPI.
# C - Repairable salvage. Generally applies to older vehicles. Can be sold for repair but must now have VIC inspection.
Recorded at DVLA & HPI.
# D - Repairable salvage. Minimal damage sometimes stolen and found after claim has been paid, or cost of repair combined with difficulty obtaining new parts to enable a swift repair.
Recorded with HPI.
# X - Repairable salvage. Not recorded on any registers such as HPI. Limited or very light damage, or vehicle is new or less than 12 months old.
Usually requires minimal repair work.
NOT Recorded with HPI
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Considering you seem to attract large vehicles to dent your car, one that has already been battered doesn't seem that bad an idea ;-) I'd want to see the photos from before it was repaired and what sort of damage it had before I"d consider any write off.
You could probably pick a non pranged one in an auction for the same money if you didn't mind a few more miles. Damage repair is big business so I'd imagine corners will have been cut and not everything on the car will be as it should. Some friends had a damage repaired car and lots of the trim and a few other extra features such as the aircon were missing parts. My car was pranged before i had it and the repair wasn't fantastic. It was taken elsewhere to get the damage repair done properly. Insurance company bodyshops are not paid enough to do decent work.
teabelly
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I can't get the TinyURL link to work but I gather it's a Golf that's been written off.
As they are built to last I wouldn't like to even consider one that's been written off.....:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Considering you seem to attract large vehicles to dent your car, one that has already been battered doesn't seem that bad an idea ;-)
miaow!
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Hmmm. Over 5 grand for a (frankly boring looking) underpowered, CAT D Golf which you could never put your trust in.
Don't think you're getting the levels of quality you do in your Polo either. My mate had an M reg one which was built like a tank. I'm sure it had Panzer running gear. Not a single rattle or squeak.
My auntie's V reg Golf - felt pretty cheap by comparison.
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Don't panic all of you - I'm not seriously, seriously considering it...just pondering it.
The thing is, I currently drive around in a car that has been hit in the front, hit in the back and hit from the side, so the 'would you want to drive a car that's been in one accident' argument isn't really a good one! :)
I'll keep looking/saving!
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The thing is, I currently drive around in a car that has been hit in the front, hit in the back and hit from the side,
Maybe you ought to get Polo whacked in t'other side just to keep him balanced ...
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And a hole in the middle of Polo for perfect symmetry....
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>>Isn't the fact that it'll be worth less when I come to sell it on balanced out by the fact that I'd be paying half what it's worth for it in the first place?>>
That is assuming it would be worth 10 or 11 grand if not Cat D, it wouldn't, perhaps 7 to 7.5k very tops. I agree with point made, would rather have higher mileage than Cat D for the same price.
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The fact that it is a Cat D would not stop me buying the car. I would expect to be able to see evidence that it had been repaired correctly, I would want to know what the damage had been, I would want to understand why the insurer had not repaired it but someobody else had, and I would want the right deal.
But the fact that it was a Cat D write off would not mean that I wouldn't buy it. It would be down to all the same factors that mattr when you buy a car, repaired or not.
Frankly I think there is so much hysterical paranoia on the subject, and so many people scared of buying them, that the good ones make excellent and good quality buys at a very advantageous price.
A Cat D write off could be a car with leather interior which got flooded in a puddle, the interior ruined, which was then replaced with a cloth interior - hardly a major saftey issue. Although no doubt somebody will be along to tell you that it is now a major rust risk and will fall apart yawn etc yawn.; but that's probably the same person who changes their oil every 250 yards.
Huge discounts due to unneccessary and uneducated hysteria results in rather good deals.
Just don't go in blind.
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If you know what you're doing, then it could be a good buy. If you have to ask for advice, then you probably can't judge. What stance do insurance companies take on such repairs?
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I'm with Mark. I've seen cars written off for the daftest reasons. My favourite had to be a Punto Sporting that was written off because it was stolen/recovered. The red key was missing and the ECU had been spiked. The cost to replace with new was more than the car was worth, so written off as Cat C. One phone call to Silverlake car breakers and an ecu and matching keys appear, giving my mate a rather handsome punto for pennies.
I've seen early lhd Maserati 3200s written off for light front end damage due to the difficulty in getting parts, especially headlamps. The staining on the drivers seat may have been connected to the front end damage.....
I'd consider it. But I'd be looking for an absolute bargain. Provided it's been inspected by the relevant authorities it will be as strong as it was when it left the factory.
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I'd consider it. But I'd be looking for an absolute bargain.
I would agree with that, though £5450 is much to much, you could get an immaculate, FSH, HPI clear, one owner sweet-as-a-nut 60 - 70k miler for that.
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I too feel Mark has got the nail on the head. I presume insurance companies take everything into account when calculating write-off claims, including cost of courtesy car if required. If the value of the car falls below this then it's goodbye car.
The same can work the other way, i.e. you can buy a car which has been in a horrific accident but has just scraped through being written off. A good example is my mate's dad who had a brand new Orion back in 1989. It was T-boned on a junction by a lorry and every panel but two was bent. The chassis had to be bent straight again!
I would want to know why PG's car had been written off, but wouldn't hesitate buying if the car (say Fiesta) was 10+ years old when written off, as the amount of damage you need to do so would only be minor.
--------------
Mike Farrow
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I have repaired Cat C and D in the past (wouldn't bother now because there's not much money in it any more).
A Cat D will have been pretty light damage - chassis damage is unlikely on a Cat D (no jig work in the estimate). If there is chassis damage then they get labelled as a Cat C. Possibly stolen/recovered, vandal damage or a light impact (wing, bumper, grille etc.). I would steer clear of anything that's had flood damage because the electrical connectors will rot away in time.
A trained eye will soon spot the replaced parts and be able to 'work backwards' to figure out what the damage was.
Get the car professionally inspected, if it passes then buy it.
Bear in mind that you can buy a car from a dealer, auction, etc. and it could have had worse damage but not be recorded. It only gets recorded on insurance co. cost grounds, not on degree of damage (i.e. almost brand new car gets very heavy impact and is repaired - so not recorded as a 'write-off'). Also, cars from some self-insured fleets get written off and sold on without being recorded, as do 'thrid party' insured cars.
Provided the car has been properly repaired it won't affect the insured value.
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Bear in mind that you can buy a car from a dealer, auction, etc. and it could have had worse damage but not be recorded. It only gets recorded on insurance co. cost grounds, not on degree of damage (i.e. almost brand new car gets very heavy impact and is repaired - so not recorded as a 'write-off'). Also, cars from some self-insured fleets get written off and sold on without being recorded, as do 'thrid party' insured cars.
As you may/may not be aware, my car was involved in a bump in February. If it had gone through the insurance company, it would have been a write off. Cat D probably, as all that was damaged was the rear side panel and the panel below the rear lights.
However, I went through a solicitor (and not the insurance company) and the car was repaired at a garage of my choice at the other person?s insurance company?s expense. As a result, the car won?t appear as ever having an accident.
I?m quite happy to drive it around. The damage was never structural and the evidence of a bump is there if you look. The rear panel couldn't be pulled out all the way, so there is an ever so slight 'bulge', which no-one knows is there unless I point it out and they compare sides! Likewise, the boot floor was on the verge of giving in as the paint was showing signs of stress (but that doesn't take a lot)
An inspection before and after reveal everything is fine.
The garage that repaired mine said the worst they'd ever done was a Corsa which was hit so hard at the front that the safety cell had 'burst open' (I.E, roof had gone up as the floor had gone down as the engine compartment was pushed back). Apparently it took them ages, but it hit the road eventually.
This hysteria over write offs and accident damage also means my car is practically worthless. Luckily for me I don?t plan to sell.
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but that's probably the same person who changes their oil every 250 yards.
::[sharp intake of breath]::
250 yards?? Surely that's pushing it a bit, No? End of the driveway, I say. And best strip down on every other oil change to make sure the clutch is still ok.
Seriously, the question is not "Cat D or not?", the question is "what happened?". If my 3 had been a lesser model and a lot older when it hit the larger deer, the bill might well have written it off. I'll be quite happy to drive it after it's been repaired, though.
Edited by Webmaster on 26/10/2007 at 01:42
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Huge discounts due to unneccessary and uneducated hysteria results in rather good deals.
Agreed. A friend's husband makes a good living from buy these write-offs cheaply and repairing them. He's happy enough with them for his own extended family to drive them.
Just don't go in blind.
I think that's the problem. How does someone who isn't a car-structure expert get enough reliable info to make an informed decision?
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They follow Aprilia's suggestion and get it inspected, NW.
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They follow Aprilia's suggestion and get it inspected, NW.
That's the problem. Where would ordinary riff-raff like me go to find someone who would reliably and throughly do that sort of assessment?
I wouldn't be satisfied with the usual pre-purchase check (like what the AA etc used to offer) -- I'd want something much more thorough.
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Whereabouts are you? The county will do.
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Whereabouts are you? The county will do.
God's own county. West Riding thereof
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A quick rummage in the Yellow Pages will turf up motor assessors in your vicinity. All trained in insurance assessment, repair assessment with years of experience in the industry.
£100 or so gives you peace of mind.
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£100 or so gives you peace of mind.
>>
Problem is you have still spent £100 even if they reckon the car is dodgy, unless the seller will stand by it's integrity to the extent that they agree to pay for the assessment in the event that the car fails the assessment.
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And that's different from paying £100 for an AA/RAC used car check on any car *how* exactly? Or paying for a house survey?
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And that's different from paying £100 for an AA/RAC used car check on any car *how* exactly? >>
Slightly different, though I take the point, infact if you would spend £35 quid on an HPI check to see if the car is on the register then this is saved if the seller is telling you that it is therefore the net cost is IRO £65. The AA/RAC would of course be more thorough on mechanical and electrical integrity as opposed to structural.
Or paying for a house survey?
That is effectively compulsory and is a much smaller % of the purchase price.
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One point, not sure if this has been mentioned, the description says alloys though the pic has wheel covers, likely that the pic is not of the actual car.
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That's the problem. Where would ordinary riff-raff like me go to find someone who would reliably and throughly do that sort of assessment?
Ask somewhere knowledgeable - try:
tinyurl.com/3fure
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I am glad that you have taken my previous advice and are considering a Golf diesel.
However I would not buy a car that has been written off, they never drive the same again after repairs, in my experience.
If I was a charmer like you, I would go to my bank and beg and borrow enough money to buy a good Golf.
You know it makes sence!
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Right! I've read all the posts, and come back to my original thought - given I liked the model, and had been to see if I still liked this one, I'd buy it at not over 5k (and preferably less, of course).
I'm not too worried by all these scare stories; I had a Celica GT with an off front to the extent that it had to be pulled straight on one of these jig things, and I could tell no difference afterwards.
Try for £1k off.
Sorry it's just a qualified "yes".
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Quite why a pretty new Golf, with minor damage, should be regarded as uneconomical to repair beats me. Either its minor (repairable wings etc), or its more involved. You have only the vendors word that its a Cat D, unless you have been in touch with the insurance Co. If its a bargain, dealers will be there first. if not, they sell to a punter:)
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You have onlythe vendors word that its a Cat D, unless you have been in touch with the insurance Co.
Yes, obviously she needs to check its a Cat D
If its abargain, dealers will be there first. if not, they sell to a punter:)
Not really. People are generally put off newer cars (up to about 5 years old) if recorded. In the early-mid 1990's I repaired a few salvage cars (before the 'cat' ratings were introduced). You could easily make £1k on a car. Nowadays buyers are much more wary and straight cars are relatively cheaper. It would be hard to make a good living out of repairing salvage. Those that do tend to be in the repair trade and 'fill in' quiet periods by repairing salvage.
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The corrosion resistance of accident-repaired cars is rarely as good as that of undamaged cars. No body shop, no matter how good they are, can replicate the corrosion resistance that is built in at the factory. I had a car repaired and I found that the rear wing was just bare metal on the inside surface. I'm not suggesting that all repaired cars will be like that, but it obviously can happen. And I don't suppose for a minute that pattern part body panels are of as high quality material as the originals.
--
L\'escargot.
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"Although no doubt somebody will be along to tell you that it is now a major rust risk and will fall apart yawn etc yawn.; but that's probably the same person who changes their oil every 250 yards.
8-)
I'll have that raspberry back if you don't mind.
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'No body shop, no matter how good they are, can replicate the corrosion resistance that is built in at the factory. '
Why on earth not?If a panel was replaced,which probably would not be the case for a cat D,original spotwelds would be replicated using weld through paint and then seam sealed.And why would they use pattern parts on a car like this?Obviously there are cowboys who would do a bodge,but there are also those who take a pride in doing an excellent job of returning a car to 'as new'condition.The onus is on the buyer to check the quality of the repair.
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One example why not - take an A4 sheet of paper and roll into a tube, stand the tube on a table and placing your hand on top press down and squash it.
Smooth out the sheet of paper (iron it if you wish) and repeat.
Compare the forces necessary to squash the tubes.
This is how repaired structures compare with new, body panels are replaced but many structural parts are just straightened.
You pays your money, you takes your pick.
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Paper and metal have different responses to deformation, though.
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Patently beat me to it. Steel can go through a number of deformations before fatigue becomes an issue. Structural members DO get replaced if the deformation will have weakened the unit beyond an acceptable level.
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A Cat D car is extremely unlikely to have had damaged chassis sections. That is what the Cat C is for. Cat D will likely be bolt-on parts damaged or dents to doors/wings etc.
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The demonstration is not about fatigue, most of the crushing strength of the tubular members of a structure relies on them being straight, once kinks have been put into these members (by crushing and straightening) they do not have the same resistance to crushing as the original (just like the paper). Look under the bonnet at the bits which would be deformed in a collission.
Fatigue is different, generally relates to cracks rather than bends, and is caused by higher numbers of cycles - a failure after two cycles would not be considered fatigue, after 2000 could be but the failure mechanism would tell you).
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I'd want to know what accident damage it had suffered personally. I have a 4 yr old Primera that I bought from a salvage yard and the only panels it needed are all bolt on. I found 2 doors in the same colour so that just leaves me with a bonnet and (ideally) a bumper to find.
So I have no trouble with accident-damaged cars. But in the case of the Golf, I'd want to know just what damage it suffered. I know mine was hit lightly on the o/s/f and suffered a bit of a scrape down the n/s, and that was it.
Anyway, so it maybe worth considering, get it inspected and see if you can get in contact with the previous owner to find out if they know what the damage is.
OF course, the snag is that the trader may not have the V5 as it may have been sent back to the DVLA by insurance co, in which case you're a bit stuck.
For the record, I wouldn't want to be in RF's Laguna looking at the photos, be it properly repaired or otherwise.
just my little input,
Stu
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Fatigue is different,
So is work hardening.
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I would concurr with the view that a Cat D shouldn't be an issue, however I would like to know exactly what damage was done to it and what parts were replaced or repaired.
However, that aside, is it a good buy?
From what many have said here you're trading the cat D status for low mileage and paying around the same price.
You may find the higher mileage example may have been more extensively repaired but not written off by the insurers, so that may not be a great comparison.
Or you may find the interior on this one has been replaced with a lower spec one, and the wiring repair is poor and likely to give problems in 6 months.
So, if you are still interested - find out exactly what the situation is.
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