Well I really do try to drive in a way that's safe, paying due attention to hazards and other vehicles. And quite often I see others overtaking and think 'Jeez, how do they get away with it?'
But the points about the benefits of advanced/police driving courses are well made. A year ago I did try to sign up for some RoSPA advanced training but it didn't happen - RoSPA didn't seem interested in me or my money. But thanks for the tip about Ride Drive; as it happens they're just up the road in Aylesbury.
Reckon we could all benefit from this sort of thing, even though we're all better than average drivers. Well we are, aren't we?
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Well 4 hours with Ride & drive I learn't a lot and I was knackered afterwards. I'm pleased to say he didn't find I was doing anything dangerous just ways to drive better. They have instructors all over the country by the way. If you have a session with them I think the problem you describe in your original post won't be a problem anymore.
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The point made earlier about "knowing" if someone else is likely ot overtake. Easy one, that. It's called "indicators". In the absence of those, then not unreasonable to assume that the person in front has not interest in overtaking.
As for only overtaking if you can do it in one hit, what planet would this be on? If you are familiar with the road you may well be aware that it is perfectly safe to overtake 4 cars with good visibility, but that 5 is cutting it fine and 6 is a no-no. You may also be aware of a further overtaking opportunity in just half a mile that would allow you to finish the overtake.
Anyone want to tell me what is unsafe about overtaking half the convoy in this manner, provided it is done smoothly, with minimal braking and with clear signalling?
I would hazard a guess that the only danger point is the risk of drivers closing up as described above.
What I would describe as Baaaaa-d driving [geddit?]
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Here's my two-pennyworth.
Overtaking even in the best possible circumstances is a riskier business than staying put, so you really do have to weigh up the benefits compared with the risk. If the benefit is getting to the next hold up 5 minutes faster, and the risk is of misjudging the available length of clear road or of being baulked by a flasher and waver, then personally I value my life more.
Supposing you do the same route every day for 20 years, and take a tiny risk overtaking a convoy once per day, how long are you going to live?
I just settle down and jog along and enjoy Classic FM. But then no-one cares if I get to work 10 minutes late.
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No Dosh,
The emphasis in this thread has changed from whether it is reasonable to overtake sections of the convoy eg jump the queue, to whether it is safe to do so.
You make the following statement:
"The point made earlier about "knowing" if someone else is likely ot overtake. Easy one, that. It's called "indicators". In the absence of those, then not unreasonable to assume that the person in front has not interest in overtaking."
In the situation where a number of cars are following a slow vehicle isn't it reasonable to assume that the majority are waiting for their opportunity to overtake? - why would they have caught up with the convoy otherwise! Certainly I find myself in that situation frequently on roads I know well and am waiting for that bit of straight road that is coming up in half a mile or so.
To indicate this intent to overtake when the opportunity presents itself are you seriously suggesting in your statement above that all the cars in the convoy should all have their right hand indicator on all the time? And that in the absence of a RH indicator it is reasonable to assume that car has no interest in overtaking and you are at liberty to overtake him and take his place in the queue?
Extraordinary statement.
C
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It would have been an extraordinary statement, except that it's not what he said.
He just pointed out - correctly - that before anyone further up the queue turned out to overtake, they should look in their mirror to check no-one is coming past them, and indicate.
Of course, they generally don't, but they should do...
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BB
"It would have been an extraordinary statement, except that it's not what he said"
That is exactly what he(No Dosh) said - I cut and copied it into my post!
C
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You copy and pasted this:
"The point made earlier about "knowing" if someone else is likely ot overtake. Easy one, that. It's called "indicators". In the absence of those, then not unreasonable to assume that the person in front has not interest in overtaking"
Which is indeed what he said.
You then went on to say this:
"are you seriously suggesting in your statement above that all the cars in the convoy should all have their right hand indicator on all the time?"
Which appeared to be what you were saying was an extraordinary statement.
This was not what No Dosh said, and was obviously not what he meant. You took a perfectly reasonable statement, and extended the logic to an unreasonable extreme.
What No Dosh had suggested was that before overtaking any car in that queue would indicate their intention to do so, not that they would indicate at points where they had no intention of doing so.
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BB
I asked 2 questions on his extraordinary statement. As indicated by the ? marks.
C
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No Dosh,
There is a serious risk of becoming entrenched in this position.
Each situation is totaly different and dynamics change by the second, each driver including the one in the wobbely Metro makes risk assesments as the situation rolls out in front of them.
I'm with the argument that exceeding the limits to make progress is out of order when that driver the squeezes into gaps 'cos he/she is starting to run out of road, I hate this when it happens to me, I have to correct and alter my speeds and spacing to suit the whims of the driver whose tried to fit his motor in between me and the car in front. There are two options here. 1. The driver is overtaking without properly working out the risk (scarey) or 2 he'll just bully his way into a gap anyway. (equally scarey)
As for indicators, really, what are BMW and Volvo drivers expected to do ?! (;-))
Buy a very fast bike - the only real world solution.
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Tic,tic, tic PU
HC 144 Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.
I also recall from my youth something about ensuring one leaves a space in front for an overtaking vehicle but have been unable to find that in the current HC, only the 2 second rule gap.
Have you read the Times News review article "Simple Justice"?
Mr Murray for Home Secretary in my book. Funny I did the survey and guess what I came out as - a Cop - surprise. Any of the rest of BR if you can get hold of a copy it is damned good sensible article.
Was that a pint?
DVD
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What's the problem with adjusting your speed to cope with other drivers' actions? You have to do it all the time - and not just when someone does something stupid.
As I said before, if I'm in a convoy, and even if I'm not interested in overtaking, I keep plenty of room between me and the car in front: a) it gives me loads of baking distance, b) it gives me good visibility, and c) it leaves room for overtakers.
If I'm ambling or doing what seems to be the new single carriageway speed limit of 50 mph (the one at which things don't happen too fast and you can drive with your brain in neutral), then I EXPECT to be overtaken. Why not? I don't mind. And I plan for it.
What worries me are the comments or hints that all this is about 'queue jumping'. Unless there's a jam there aren't any queues, just lots of people going about their daily lives. Movement on our roads is free as long as it's safe and legal.
And I do resent people who think they should impose on others their driving standards and their ideas about what's right and what's wrong. Vigilante policing doesn't work (mind you, nor does the official kind these days). Arrogant? Well I try not to be. I really am receptive to good advice and insights. And I think about my driving a lot. But I think I can spot the petty and the daft from a decent braking distance.
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If you can safely overtake the convoy in one go , then do so. If you can safely overtake in more than one go, then do so. If you need to pull into a gap that is already too small for safe driving due to other peoples poor positioning, you must stay put. Two wrongs don't make a right.
HC139 : Overtake only when safe to do so.........Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in.
If someone has to brake as a direct result of you pulling in front them, then you should consider whether that was really a wise/safe maneouvre.
I do 90 miles each way to work - and have tried different methods of driving from easy cruising for max fuel economy to foot-down-get-home-asap. On average there is no noticeable difference to my journey times.
Good progress past one obstruction just brings you sooner to the next.
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MM - it's incumbent on overtaker to overtake safely and if, at some stage during the manoeuvre, this involves moving into someone else's braking zone you're going to get flashed. Simple as that.
It's also possible that you are not judging correctly how much space there is looking 6 cars ahead, hence the reaction from other drivers when you pull in.
The queue mentality is also at work, and if you jump it - people will flash you for lack of politeness as well (true they will!).
Sometimes, other drivers will close up the space the overtaker is about to move into as well - either not expecting an overtaker, or worse to block the manoeuvre. Scary!
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MM,
"What worries me are the comments or hints that all this is about 'queue jumping'."
In the most common scenario that is exactly what it is - "queue jumping". A queue(convoy) of cars are waiting for their opportunity to pass the lead vehicle. Applying your criteria you assume that they are not intent on overtaking and are therefore justified in overtaking half the convoy. Of course you indicated in an earlier post that they should have 'left sufficient room' for you to do this safely. If your assumtion is wrong are you not queue jumping?
Also if you are in 'press on' mode, determined to overtake, and managed to get yourself into the middle of the convoy, are you quite happy for an equally determined 'press on' driver to overtake you and get ahead of you in the queue? - You would naturally have 'left sufficient room' for them to do this safely.
C
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In the UK, a convoy of cars consists usually of 99% (plus) of cars with no apparent intention to overtake - for whatever reason.
If a driver up ahead is intent on overtaking, the fact that they are is virtually always obvious from both the attitude of the driver and the positioning / movements of their car.
There are times such as this (i.e. in a convoy with no-one intent on overtaking) when queue or convoy "jumping" is not a sin and executed properly is in fact part of the repertoire of the good driver. (See comments above about British Class 1 Police driver training.)
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Cardew: Well by your definition, maybe I am 'queue jumping'. But I worry that you - and some others - think this is tantamount to a crime. If it's only going to get me to ahead by a minute or so and I've delayed no-one by more than two seconds (but I've enjoyed the quicker drive) is that really a problem?
And to answer your second point, if the other driver is equally press-on, chances are he/she will see my behaviour and follow; to them I'm not an obstruction. And if he/she has a more powerful motor than mine (a mere 115 horses) or is a bit bonkers, then he/she can pass me. So to answer your quation, yes. Life's too short to think otherwise.
And to JJ: Thank you.
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>>If you can safely overtake the convoy in one go , then do so. If you can safely overtake in more than one go, then do so. If you need to pull into a gap that is already too small for safe driving due to other peoples poor positioning, you must stay put. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Bingo!
Sorry to have left you all to this one without responding sooner. I was out in Dorchester and on the way back overtook a convoy behind a slow moving people carrier..... No, seriously!
The rear 3 cars were bunched like rolling-stock. Next 3 all had well over safe braking distance between them. The forward of these three was keeping a good way back from the slow moving PC.
I held back on the first straight, checked mirrors, overshoulder, then indicated and turned my headlights from side to main. Accelerated to close gap, moved clear onto RHS of road several car lengths back, got eye contact in rear-view of rear car and then floored it. Cleared the first three cars comfortably within NSL and dropped into large gap, keeping an eye on the road ahead as a slight dip reduced visibility (not "no visibility", just not 100%) for the next stage.
All clear after this, so same process. Came in behind the People Carrier. All of the above completed without touching brakes. Series of bends, then clear run again. Off I went.
Nobody followed at any stage. My breaking this manouvere down into segments allowed comfort and safety for all drivers and gave a good indication to the tail-end charlies that the road ahead was clear for overtaking.....yet none of them did.
Go figure.
Kind of ironic that I was over in Dorchester with my daughter where, amongst other things, we fed some sheep.
:o)
Cardew, that breathtaking extension of logic was, well, breathtaking.
ND
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Hmm. The lessons from all this are:
a) Plan overtaking moves carefully and be aware of all the factors that make up road conditions at any given place
b) If you're not sure there's a comfortable gap to go into, don't even try
c) Remember that there are a lot of small-minded motorists on the road.
Unfortunately, point c) means d) that they cause an awful lot of unnecessary frustration to others (who really just have to live with it), and e) that even when there are overtaking opportunities to be had, some of those that can't or won't take them don't like it when you do, and do it well. To them, it's just NOT FAIR!
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Maxy,
Try the A47 Peterborough-Norwich as therapy.
It will make all other single-carriageway roads seem free-flowing.
:-))
rg
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I'm with Maxy all the way here and (adjusting my flame proof trousers) will certainly agree that you can tell who is thinking about overtaking and who is not and guess what, it doesn't involve mind reading.
Having driven on the winding hill roads of Corsica more than a few times and seen Saxos and 106s pull past lines of traffic it simply comes down to the mind set. The French may be (according to Homer) "cheese eating surrender monkeys" but they are pragmatic drivers and don't get hysterical if someone wants to pass them or, heaven help us approach them in the middle of the road, thus requiring that both drivers pay attention to their position on the highway.
That's Homer Simpson BTW
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Many points of view here, but I agree with those who say it is quite obvious when those in a convoy have no intention of overtaking a slow vehicle: they let opportunity after opportunity pass. In that case they should leave a big enough gap from the car in front of them to allow someone to return to the l/h side of the road after overtaking some of the vehicles behind them - not bunch up so as to make it impossible for those who wish to overtake to do so safely. All that having been said, the object is to get to your destination safely, and it's pretty much true that rushing to save a few minutes isn't worth it if there's any risk involved.
8 ball
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>>TheFrench may be (according to Homer) "cheese eating surrender monkeys" but...
At the risk of being both pedantic and off topic, it was not Homer but Groundskeeper Willie. Obviously the Simpsons writers had never heard of the Auld Alliance.
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MM
"But I worry that you - and some others - think this is tantamount to a crime."
I think this thread has lost its way. It is NOT about the safe overtaking a convoy of cars who have no intention themselves of overtaking the lead vehicle.
You started the thread off by asking why you got "headlamp flashers, head shakers and horn blasters" etc when you carried out a manoeuvre you thought acceptable.
Well that reaction was self evidently because those you overtook thought the manoeuvre unacceptable!
So in answer your question:
Your justification is that you "can tell" that they had no intention of overtaking.
I suggest the most logical explanation for their reaction is that you have made a misjudgement about their intentions and that they also wished to overtake the lead vehicle. Therefore they consider you have taken their place in the queue waiting for an opportunity to overtake, and also 'used up' their braking space.
No crime - just annoying and they expressed their displeasure.
C
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Drivers who do not intend to overtake the vehicle in front should always leave enough space for someone else to overtake them and slot in front.
However, if they fail to do so, that does not give the overtaker the right to force their way into a non-existent space. A key part of overtaking is knowing where you aim to be after the manoeuvre, and if there is no space for you to fit into then the overtake should not be attempted.
I have had problems in similar situations where in a queue I have left a big enough gap so that I can see easily round the vehicle in front and plan a safe overtake, then someone behind has decided that because I'm not in the boot of the car in front I'm not trying hard enough, so they launch into the overtake that I didn't attempt because I saw the car coming the other way. They then have to dive in front of me and slam on their brakes at the last split second, causing me, those behind, and often the oncoming vehicle, to take avoiding action.
What's better - a few seconds on the journey or risk and accident?
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I came up behind a convoy on my way to work this morning. Eager to try out the ideas put forward in this thread, I prepared to overtake on a nice long straight with a clear road ahead.
Then I realised that the reason everyone was doing 50 was because there was a hearse in front - it was a funeral procession. Obviously some of the cars contained mourners, others were just there for the ride. I asked myself, "Do I feel lucky?" , and decided I didn't.
The interesting thing was that not a single one of the cars in the procession nor the dozens that joined behind me felt inclined to overtake either, for the 10 miles it took before the procession turned off. Superstitious or what?
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Interesting thread. But I'm afraid that I'm with MM most of the way. I'm a member of the IAM and like to think that I DO think about what I'm doing. I live in a rural area, drive reasonably poky cars, but have many times sat in a queue getting very frustrated by drivers who:
a) drive so close to the vehicle in front (and that includes the head of the line) that they cannot possibly spot an overtaking opportunity, and
b) leave absolutely no gap so that those with more capable cars can make reasonable and SAFE progress.
I fully agree with the "if in doubt, do not overtake" maxim, which is where self control comes in - but my doubts often centre not on my ability to pass the traffic, but in the ability of other drivers to behave in a sensible & reasonable fashion to enable other to make SAFE and RAPID progress - just because they can't, why do they feel it is their birthright to obstruct the rest of humanity?
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For me the advanced and plod instructors have got this issue sussed.
If people don't know what I mean please refer to
Roadcraft Chap 9
p139 para titled "Overtaking in a stream of vehicles",
p143 para titled "Assisting others to overtake"
These sum the issues up perfectly in my most humble opinion.
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FiF give us the "executive summary" then. I haven't got a copy to hand !
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Will do this evening PU unless some kind soul beats me to it.
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[For me the advanced and plod instructors have got this issue sussed.
If people don\'t know what I mean please refer to
Roadcraft Chap 9
p139 para titled \"Overtaking in a stream of vehicles\",
p143 para titled \"Assisting others to overtake\"
These sum the issues up perfectly in my most humble opinion.]
Agreed.
I\'ve typed the text below, but first recognise the publishers:
Roadcraft
The Police Driver\'s Handbook
The Stationery Office
ISBN 0 11 340858 7
Motorcycle Roadcraft
The Police Rider\'s Handbook
The Stationery Office
ISBN 0 11 341143 X
Both give exactly the same advice with respect to this particular subject, although in my experience, and as you will see when you read it, some of it is much easier to apply on a motorcycle (smaller, narrower, more responsive, and easier to position with safety in mind), and some more difficult (being really sure that some nutter, especially another motorycle, is not already coming up on you).
Overtaking in a stream of vehicles:
Overtaking in a stream of vehicles is more difficult because it takes more time. You also have to take in to account the possible actions of more drivers both in front and behind. There is always the possibility that drivers in front are not aware of your presence or intention to overtake and that drivers behind might attempt to overtake you.
Before overtaking, you should identify a clear gap between the vehicles in front which you can enter safely. Be aware that the gap may close up before you arrive, so choose gaps that are large enough to allow for this. Do not overtake if you will have to force your vehicle into a gap.
When considering overtaking in a stream of vehicles, it may be an advantage to position your vehicle on the offside section of the road, but be aware that drivers might close up the gap that you have just left, preventing you from returning to it. AN offside position can improve your viewpoint because it is not obstructed by the vehicles in front, but this depends on the road layout. You can gain by holding this position if you can see that the road ahed is clear, and if you can identify a clear return gap and have sufficient time in which to reach it. When you reach the first return gap you may not need to enter it. If it is safe, hold the offside position to assess the possibility for further overtaking.
When you overtake clusters of vehicles, you must take extra care to ensure that the other drivers are aware of your presence.
Where a queue has formed because of an obstruction in the road ahead, do not attempt to jump the queue. The invariably annoys other road users and can be dangerous
Assisting others to overtake:
Assisting others to overtake eases tensions and improves the quality of driving for everyone on the road. The key element is your attitude of mind when you drive. You should not regard driving as a competition but as a means of travelling between two points as safely as possible. Try to regard your driving dispassionately and keep an eye on yourself to identify any inappropriate responses. If other drivers wish to overtake you, assist them:
Be alert to the intentions of drivers behind you: use your mirrors and assess whether they wish to overtake or not
Allow enough distance between you and the vehicle in front for the overtaking vehicle to enter the gap
Be aware of the likely dangers on the approach and exit from areas where the speed llimit is lower than the national speed limit. Other drivers are quite likely to attempt to overtake you while you observe the legal speed limit. This is likely to happen:
When you slow down to enter a lower speed limit area
When you are about the leave a lower speed limit area
-- End --
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Mods - I missed my symbol to switch off bold text. Please can you do it for me immediately after the word \'really\' with which the bold starts.
Cheers!
{Done, and also sorted out the text at the start. Putting too many >>>\'s or <<
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Thanks SjB, saved me a job there.
FiF
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Personally, I do the sums.
Clear road for 20 miles, I travel at 60. I'll get there in 20 minutes.
Slow traffic for 20 miles, I have to travel at 40. I'll get there in 30 minutes.
To me these are are reasonably extreme figures - 40mph is unusually slow, even behind a lorry. More likely to be 50.
20 miles without the convoy dissipating or me turning off on another road is a reasonbly long distance. More likely to be less than that.
So even at these "extremes" (which can be argued about) I am ten minutes worse off by sticking where I am. Most of the time I'm going to be two or three minutes worse off. Who cares? Relax.
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