BMW 520 - What's the scam

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Tue 20 Jun 2017 18:46
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Steveieb
A relative of mine has recently sold a 1992 BMW through an advert in a car magazine .
The story sounds bizarre, in that a collector in the US bought the car but arranged for a relative in Poland to collect it.
He even sent a video of him working in his garage on Classic BMWs.
The money has been deposited in a pay pal account before the car was collected by the agent who flew in from Poland
But is there a scam somewhere I.e can the money be transferred out of the PayPal account after the transaction?
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Tue 20 Jun 2017 19:18
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Manatee

www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/chargebacks

Possible. Common fraud with ebay transactions, which this wasn't of course.

Does he know the relative flew in from Poland? Was the car genuinely collectible?

A common fraud with this sort of thing is to overpay, then ask the vendor to return the excess via Western Union, following which the original payment is reversed or bank draft turns out to have been forged.

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Tue 20 Jun 2017 19:24
BMW 520 - What's the scam - RichT54

This sounds very similar to the scams reported in the following thread: https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Archive/SELLING-CARS-ON-GUMTREE-SCAM-TO-WATCH-FOR/td-p/631754/page/27?profile.language=en-gb

Although the thread refers to Gumtree, it also applies to other sites. In partcular, note the message from the moderator:

Phishing emails associated with Selling Cars on listing sites is a well known fraud trend. The most common trend is to receive a text/email from the potential buyer claiming to be overseas at the moment and requesting a courier company/agent collect the car. This is usually followed by a request for your PayPal email address to make the payment directly to you, a fake email will be sent advising a payment has been made to your PayPal Account and once delivery of the vehicle is confirmed the funds will be released.

Did your relative actually receive the money in their Paypal account, or just receive a fake email saying it had been deposited?

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Tue 20 Jun 2017 20:13
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Deft

The potential for hassle via Paypal would make me wary of large transactions through them. Even if you get the funds successfully out of Paypal they can still charge back and essentially leave a debt on there (I think).

Either that or the buyer is a proper scammer and will send spoofed e-mails / links suggesting money has been deposited with you when it hasn't / redirect to bogus login page to steal your info. Not impossible it's a genuine person but still.......

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Tue 20 Jun 2017 20:21
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Steveieb
Understand that the funds have been deposited in the PayPal account.
But can you advise what action if any to take to secure the funds? Or stop any other illegal actions.
The car is only valued at 1000 pounds so it seems a lot of effort for a small reward.
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Tue 20 Jun 2017 20:29
BMW 520 - What's the scam - oldroverboy.

So, don't do it!

Or get readies paid to you at a bank and pay them in before releasing the car.

The amount of scams of this nature would make me run a mile.

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Tue 20 Jun 2017 20:49
BMW 520 - What's the scam - daveyjp
In short. Buyer lodges dispute with Paypal, they get a refund. Seller is out of pocket and without the goods.

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Tue 20 Jun 2017 21:12
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Steveieb

Thanks Davey.

That sounds like the way it works. But do paypal simply pay up or do they discuss the refund with the seller ?

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Tue 20 Jun 2017 23:58
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Manatee

It's almost certainly a paypal account hijack or an account set up with a stolen identity and card. If the money is still in the beneficiary's paypal account it will be taken back.

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Tue 20 Jun 2017 22:17
BMW 520 - What's the scam - SLO76
99% likely this is a scam! I get weird stories like this when I list cars all the time. A constant barrage of foreign phone calls and talk of "my agent will come to pick car up" etc etc. Tell them it's a cash only sale and they'll soon disappear, while a genuinely interested buyer won't be put off by such an understandable stipulation. It's very likely the PayPal transaction will be reversed or not have been completed in the first place. Please let us know what happens either way.
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Tue 20 Jun 2017 22:40
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Ethan Edwards

Well for starters that BMW is imo not collectable in any way shape or form.

Which makes you wonder why someone is prepared to pay hundreds of dollars to ship a 500 quid car to the USA when they actually sold them there anyway.

Not to mention that if he had sourced it from say Germany it would have had the steering wheel on the right side for the US.

So simple logic says to me this is a total scam.

Even before you find out that the PayPal transaction can be reversed leaving you with no money and no vehicle.

That's my 2p anyhow.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 20/06/2017 at 22:41

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Wed 21 Jun 2017 09:15
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Steveieb
Oh dear. Sounds fairly conclusive from what you have said that we have become victim of this scam.
But is there any rearguard action that we can take?
And is this feature of payments through bank cheques and direct bank transfers equally vulnerable to this reverse claim back scam ?
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Wed 21 Jun 2017 09:34
BMW 520 - What's the scam - SLO76
Bankers cheques can be faked. You need cleared funds either in cash or in bank transfer before releasing a vehicle. I really only accept cash but again fakes are commonplace so you need to be familiar with this too.

They can't recall a Faster Payment once they have sent it, they would need to contact the you and ask you to send the money back. However I only feel 100% safe (unless I know the person) once I've transferred the money out of the business current account and into another account.

I don't accept PayPal or credit card payments both of which can be reversed for several reasons. If a buyer has issues with paying in cash or bank transfer then you know they're a scam artist so leave well alone.

I don't think there's any route to safeguard yourself now the vehicle is away. It'll be out of the country and heading to Eastern Europe or Africa by now where older German metal is in strong demand.
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Wed 21 Jun 2017 10:08
BMW 520 - What's the scam - RT
I don't accept PayPal or credit card payments both of which can be reversed for several reasons.

An interesting point - I'd always assumed that credit cards were often refused for larger items because of the commission paid by the retailer - but the potential reversal of credit card payments is clearly good reason not to accept them.

On the issue of cash, it's good practice to accompany the buyer to your bank where the money is paid into your account before handing the vehicle over - that way any fake notes are checked for properly by the bank.

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Wed 21 Jun 2017 11:18
BMW 520 - What's the scam - SLO76
"On the issue of cash, it's good practice to accompany the buyer to your bank where the money is paid into your account before handing the vehicle over - that way any fake notes are checked for properly by the bank."

Agree totally. I ran a predominantly cash run business for 15yrs with the Newsagents and you'd be amazed at the volume of fake notes and pound coins that are in circulation. If we weren't on the ball we'd be hundreds of pounds a week down. Though have to say I've yet to encounter a car buyer trying to sneak in any fakes to date, largely I suspect because the bulk of my punters are known to me or friends of friends etc.
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Wed 28 Jun 2017 14:55
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Steveieb

Ive now heard that if the buyer pays by Pay pal they can lodge a dispute and effectively claim their monwy back from your Pay Pal account even if there is no money in there.

So it leaves a debit in the account which Pay Pal persue with bailiffs etc.

Is this correct?

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Wed 28 Jun 2017 15:55
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Terry W

Most of the above is good advice. You are not selling a premium high value or difficult to source car. It may be a little troublesome to sell (s/h cars often are) but you can always resort to auction or WBAC.

Doing a deal this way has a very high probability of being a scam of one sort of another.

Unless it is cash or cleared funds just run a mile.

It is often the case that being shortchanged by £1 rankles far more than the pleasure of £10 gained. There is no point in a lot of grief as any extra money generated will be as nothing to the simmering long term annoyance of a failed deal.

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Wed 28 Jun 2017 16:20
BMW 520 - What's the scam - skidpan

Ive now heard that if the buyer pays by Pay pal they can lodge a dispute and effectively claim their monwy back from your Pay Pal account even if there is no money in there.

So it leaves a debit in the account which Pay Pal persue with bailiffs etc.

Is this correct?

Not entirely. Since your PayPal account is linked to either a credit or debit car (or both) all PayPal will do is to take the cash from you. No need for bailiffs unless your bank account is empty.

You cannot stop them, its in the T & C's.

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Wed 28 Jun 2017 21:11
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Steveieb
Thanks Skidpan. But is there anything you can do to stop the claim back like closing your PayPal account?
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Wed 28 Jun 2017 22:52
BMW 520 - What's the scam - JEREMYH

If you close your account PP can get you through the legal system ie a CCJ as you have already agreed toPP terms and conditions

I have had a couple of claims though my business with con artists and moaners and with out fail PP always favour in the claim of the buyer no matter what .

Do not use PP for large payments

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Thu 29 Jun 2017 18:10
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Steveieb

Thankfully just looked at the PP terms and conditions and motorised vehicles are excluded from the claim back arrangement.

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Thu 29 Jun 2017 18:43
BMW 520 - What's the scam - Manatee

Let us know how it goes, if you can.

I have skimmed the agreement, and it does say that motor vehicles are excluded from "Buyer Protection". However, items that have been collected are not eligible for "Seller Protection". I'm not sure where that would leave a vendor if the payment had been made fraudulently (i.e. by someone other than the account holder).

If an account has been used fraudulently, then the account holder has up to 13 months to report it and unless he has acted fraudulently or negligently himself he is likley to be reimbursed by Pay Pal. Whether that could result in a clawback is not clear to me.

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