All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

Just brimmed the tank with another tank of Shell 'fuel save' and calculated, to my horror, that I'd averaged only 38.5mpg-below my last tank of Asda Swill at 39.9mpg and below my long term, average of 41.5mpg. Outrageous! Something should be done about it. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it!

OTOH, the weather in the Northwest has been very wet over the last couple of weeks. Moreover, I've been running late for work quite a lot recently-and my driving style has change accordingly. Add a couple of Chritmas traffic jams and the difference is easily explained.

Engine performance, tip-in response and idle quality were all exactly the same as with Asda smart price.

Correlation does not always equal causality.

All - Fule Save? - balleballe

Very true, but I have indeed noticed a difference in some brands when used in my car - based on the exact same journeys (which did not have significantly different traffic levels) over 5 tankfulls of 'normal' unleaded. Not major differences mind you, but 'every little helps' ;)

All - Fule Save? - RT

I simply buy the cheapest available in the location where I need fuel - each tank varies both in consumption and perceived smoothness/power - however there's no correlation in brands used - they all produce good and bad results.

My conclusion is that individual drivers/cars can't repeat with any accuracy so individual tank figures are worthless - now if a major fleet user ran comparative tests over ALL their cars/drivers, over several years I'd take notice of their findings but not otherwise.

All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

individual drivers/cars can't repeat with any accuracy so individual tank figures are worthless

I would agree that individual results lack repeatability (giving mpg to 3 significant figures was being facetious), but I would stop short of calling them worthless. You can definitely see repeatable results in major factors-such as an increase in consumption during winter for example.

Long distance commuters can build economy logs with variation in fuel economy that are within +/-2% or so. Not as good as a dyno-but not worthless.

All - Fule Save? - craig-pd130

On my Passat B5.5 TDI, Mondeo TDCI and current V60, the biggest economy killer on my usual commute and dad's taxi duties was always, and is still, cold weather.

When the ambient is below 6 or 7 celsius, the instant mpg read-outs on my previous two diesels and the current one were woeful until the engine was fully warmed up ... easily 20% worse than when the ambient is 10C or above.

With temps back around the double-digit mark in the past few days, economy is fine again.

Edited by craig-pd130 on 27/12/2011 at 21:04

All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

Interestingly, I find exactly the same with my petrol engine. The effect of temperature on economy is definitely non linear!

All - Fule Save? - balleballe

In summer a 90 mile journey on an empty motorway (cruise set at 60) would give me 40-41mpg

The same journey in winter returns 36.5-37mpg

Not a massive difference due to weather - but I think around 10% is to be expected

All - Fule Save? - MikeTorque

38.5mpg sounds pretty good compared with the other figures you've mentioned considering you've been driving less economically recently.

What do you reckon the mpg would have been using Asda diesel under the same driving conditions ?

All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

38.5!

I usually try pretty hard to get the best efficiency if not the best economy. But I'm not going to become a roadblock just to hit a magic round number. :)

All - Fule Save? - Bobbin Threadbare

I am with RT - I buy whatever is the cheapest nearest to where I need the fuel, so if I'm going shopping, it's Asda/Sainbogs stuff.

I realised that I had the perfect conditions in which to keep a log (75 miles round trip every day) but I stopped bothering as you can't go back in time - if you've burnt the fuel, you've burnt it. I didn't want to beat myself up for having poorer mpg one week than the next.

So now I have no idea but I work it out in money - and I now go up some very steep hills instead which wrecked my calcs anyway.

All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

and I now go up some very steep hills instead which wrecked my calcs anyway.

How so?

All - Fule Save? - Alby Back

Well here's an odd thing to ponder. I make a regular round trip, at least once a week of some 350 miles. I tend to leave very early ( around 5.00 am ) to miss the traffic and again on the return journey I leave it until the worst of the evening rush has passed. Resultantly it takes a fairly reliable 3 hours each way so average speeds must be the same or thereabouts.

Now I know trip computers are not accurate but you would imagine that any given one might be at least consistantly innaccurate if you see what I mean?

The car is a Merc E Class 250 diesel auto estate. On the outbound leg it never records more than 43 mpg but on the return journey it indicates 48 mpg. This is not a one-off phenomenon. It happens every time.

At least mildly puzzling eh? Wonder if the temperature thing has a bearing in so far as it tends to be colder early in a morning than in the evening? I can't think of any other reasonable explanation.

Thoughts / theories ?

Oh and Happy Christmas and a good New Year to all by the way !

Edited by Humph Backbridge on 28/12/2011 at 11:18

All - Fule Save? - madf

.

Thoughts / theories ?

Simple. If it's 350 miles long, it must be North South.. (or you are driving in the North Sea).

So one journey is uphill towards the Magnetic North and one South. It's the magnetism that does it. You don't think people sell fuel magnets for nothing surely?

All - Fule Save? - RT

Prevailing wind - the average wind in the UK is a 10mph breeze from the South West - so if you're doing 175 miles each way down to the South West and back you'll get exactly the result you do because the AVERAGE DIFFERENCE in speed through the air is 20 mph, enough to be very significant.

Of course some days the winds will drop, or increase or change direction but it always comes back to average.

All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

Well spotted RT

All - Fule Save? - Alby Back

OK, I'm buying the prevailing wind theory. Indeed the journey is to the south west from a start point in the north west.

Good stuff !

All - Fule Save? - RT

Back in the '80s and '90s, I used to tow the caravan 200 miles each way from the Midlands down to South Devon and was perplexed like Humph about the regular out/back discrepancy - particularly as journeys east/west to Wales or Norfolk didn't give any discrepancy.

It was only when investigating small wind turbines that I stumbled on the 10mph SW average statistic - and am pleased to pass it on.

All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

So if we all kep driving in a North Easterly direction, the nation can enjoy about a 5% increase in economy!

Who says internet forums are useless?

Investigating small wind turbines? I'd have thought you'd have more sense RT!

All - Fule Save? - Alby Back

Thanks RT. All sounds entirely plausible.

Oh, and having thought again about Unthrottled's original post, all I can add is that in my straw poll of one it seems to depend on the car. I found that my Mondeo TDCi was a bit of a fuel brand snob. It ran noticeably more economically on Shell and Sainsbury's than it did on Morrison's for some reason. Subjectively it felt smoother on the first two as well.. However, "super diesels" like V-Power or Ultimate didn't appear to make any noticeable difference other than to my wallet.

The Qashqai I put 80-odd thousand miles on in two years didn't seem to mind at all what was written on the pump and gave a very consistant 36 mpg in the time I had it. I always felt that was quite poor though despite it being the 4x4 auto 2.0 D.

I've got a Merc E Class estate diesel as detailed above now and that also doesn't seem to mind what I put in it. Seems to be getting a long term 45 mpg no matter what brand which I think is ok for a large auto with 200bhp or so available.

Thanks again !

All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

One observation that surprised me was that I observed worse fuel economy this month than I did during the same period last year-in spite of the ambient temperature being considerably warmer this year. However last month was very wet, whereas dEc 2010 was very dry.

I think rain has a more delerious effect than low temperatures. The increase in rolling resistence on a soaked road surface is very noticeable and the transaxle and wheel bearings are contunally splashed with water and never get warm.

All - Fule Save? - Alby Back

Aye, you could be right. Riding a bike in the rain is generally harder when you think about it. That could just as easily be the effect of abject misery I suppose of course !

:-)

All - Fule Save? - RT

One observation that surprised me was that I observed worse fuel economy this month than I did during the same period last year-in spite of the ambient temperature being considerably warmer this year. However last month was very wet, whereas dEc 2010 was very dry.

I think rain has a more delerious effect than low temperatures. The increase in rolling resistence on a soaked road surface is very noticeable and the transaxle and wheel bearings are contunally splashed with water and never get warm.

It may be the same that arthritis sufferers get more pain in wet weather than dry - but it's not due to the moisture it's due to the lower air pressure that accompanies rain, or more accurately cause the rain.

All - Fule Save? - Alby Back

Now, y'see that sounds plausible too. ( air pressure )

Could it be though, in addition perhaps, that water droplets passing over and under a vehicle cause additional drag? Although on the flip side, wet things are generally slippery aren't they?

Think I need a cup of tea.

:-)

All - Fule Save? - unthrottled

Not buying it RT! Air resistance is directly proportional to the density of air rather than the pressure. Low pressure brings with it a drop in density and the increase in humidity drops the density further. Yet economy does not improve.

Before Christmas, I drove into Chester (about 10 slow miles) in the pouring rain. I had a quick poke around under the bonnet when I arrived. The gearbox was barely warm. It wasn't the air cooling it down. If you've ever tried pushing a stalled car, as opposed to a cold one, it is much much easier!

All - Fule Save? - RT

It was only a suggestion - it's true for arthritis though.

All - Fule Save? - Roly93

Thoughts / theories ?

I think this is pretty explainable by assuming that on the outbound journey you are starting the car from stone cold and also probably getting stuck in some rush hour traffic at some time during the morning.

On the return trip, you start with a warmish engine and also a mainly congestion free traffic flow. My 2.0TDI sucks fuel for quite a while on the very cold mornings which does make a dent in MPG even on longish journeys.

All - Fule Save? - Avant

Interesting - I hadn't thought of the prevailing wind as a factor, but it sounds plausible. Reminds me of the BBC weather warnings you sometimes hear of 'cross-winds on all motorways' - Eh? If there's a cross-wind on the M1 it must surely be a forwards-and-backwards wind on the M4?

I find the discrepancy that Humph mentions (Happy Christmas and New Year to you too, Humph) between going and returning is most noticeable if the forward trip was during the day and the return trip after dark (and especially if it was raining). I'd always thought that the reason was the need to generate energy for the lights and wipers.

Maybe all that proves is that (a) I'm no technician) and (b) I must have had too good a dinner before the return journey.

All - Fule Save? - Roly93

Just brimmed the tank with another tank of Shell 'fuel save' and calculated, to my horror, that I'd averaged only 38.5mpg-below my last tank of Asda Swill at 39.9mpg and below my long term, average of 41.5mpg.

I have consistently found lately that my A4 does several MPG less in identical driving when I brim with Shell diesel compared to just about any other brand.

All - Fuel Save? - MikeTorque

Has Santa been skimming off extra litres whilst we sleep at night ?
(well it makes you think doesn't it !)

Question is, which cars prefer which fuel brand the most ?
(evidence above suggests there are preferences)

It's not just mpg that matters here it's what's going on inside the engine. When filling up with different fuel brands their additive packages get mixed together which in turn weakens their effectiveness, this in turn can and does have a determental impact on mpg, internal engine cleaning, exhaust pollution etc.

All - Fuel Save? - unthrottled

heir additive packages get mixed together which in turn weakens their effectiveness, this in turn can and does have a detrimental impact on mpg, internal engine cleaning, exhaust pollution etc.

Keep drinking the Kool Aid. The additives have a negligible effect on how the fuel is burned. Emissions are based solely on how the fuel is burned. When I had the cylinder head off the Renault, I examined the combustion chambers and found them to be exceptionally clean-as were the intake valves. Where were all these deposits?

This was after 10 years of running the cheapest fuel available-and total negelect of the fuel injection system...

The marketing men use pseudo science and pretty pictures of explosions to convince a gullible audience that a certain brand of fuel will burn hotter for longer and all that carp. It's total nonsense.

All - Fuel Save? - brum

Most people misunderstand the way the marketing men (who are not scientists) come up with "defendable" claims.

The vast majority of any additive is a detergent/cleaning agent, and this is how they justify the "up to x% more mpg" claim.

First, take a car thats been run for a considerable time on basic fuels that have little or no cleaning additive and/or high levels of gummy contaminants. Make sure its had a difficult life such as short round town trips where its not had enough time to get up to temperature or develop high power/revs. This ensures that the fuel injectors/jets and other engine components get all gummed up with carbon and that brown sticky stuff thats incredibly difficult to shift if you've ever tried.

The mpg is poor because the injector spray patterns are poor.

Then try your new superfuel or add your additive and after a while - voila, a miraculous increase in mpg.......brought about by the injectors getting cleaned and the spray patterns restored.

Its a valid claim.....for some people. It depends on the design of the engine/fuel system, driving patterns and fuels used. For others, particularly high speed, high mileage motorway mearchants, the benefits will be neglible.

All - Fuel Save? - unthrottled

For port injected engines, the injector nozzles are never exposed to significant heat-so how do carbon deposits form? Answer: they don't.

If the intake valves are coated in carbonaceous deposits, the root cause is poorly fitting valve seals allowing lubricating oil to drip down the valve stems and undergo pyrolysis on the back of the hot valve. Nothing to do with detergents in the fuel.

All - Fuel Save? - jamie745

Congratulations unthrottled, you managed to stretch this to more than 15 posts before you bored the knobs off everybody :P

All - Fuel Save? - Avant

Oh I don't know, Jamie - I think we could know more about 'port injected engines' without getting bored. I certainly injected myself and others in the family with plenty of it over Christmas.

All - Fuel Save? - brum

Whatever...

All - Fuel Save? - dieseldogg

HMMM,

As regarding the poster with the fuel economy discrepancy in his 350 mile round trip.

What about the difference in altitude between each end?

I have observed a significent difference over a 40 mile round trip locally to visit my mother.

On the way there is is a gently upwith, followed by a very steep brae, and ending up a nett couple of hundred feet higher.

The return journey involves first the short steep climb which warms the car up properly, then a mostly downhill return journey, finishing a couple of hundred feet lower.

Generally lucky to see 45mpg on the way there, with anywhere up to 55mpg on the ret.

Simples.

All - Fuel Save? - Alby Back

Cheshire plain to Somerset levels. Only significant bump in the proceedings is the Avonmouth bridge or the elevated section of the M5. I like the "trade winds" theory. Has a certain cachet.

All - Fuel Save? - corax

For port injected engines, the injector nozzles are never exposed to significant heat-so how do carbon deposits form? Answer: they don't.

So what is the purpose of an ultrasonic injector cleaning bath? It must be cleaning something off the injectors, carbon or otherwise, or is it a big hoax?

Edited by corax on 30/12/2011 at 16:23

All - Fuel Save? - unthrottled

So what is the purpose of an ultrasonic injector cleaning bath?

For the vast majority of port injectors that go from dealership forecourt to scrapyard without ever being removed-absolutely none.

Direct injection engines are a different matter entirely, as I have acknowledged.

All - Fuel Save? - RT

Road fuel derived from crude oil isn't pure, it has small amounts of contaminants which deposit gums over long periods which can reduce injector flow and alter the open/close time.

But the better the additives in the fuel the less need for any attention.

All - Fuel Save? - MikeTorque

Keep drinking the Kool Aid. The additives have a negligible effect on how the fuel is burned. Emissions are based solely on how the fuel is burned. When I had the cylinder head off the Renault, I examined the combustion chambers and found them to be exceptionally clean-as were the intake valves. Where were all these deposits?

This was after 10 years of running the cheapest fuel available-and total negelect of the fuel injection system...

The marketing men use pseudo science and pretty pictures of explosions to convince a gullible audience that a certain brand of fuel will burn hotter for longer and all that carp. It's total nonsense.

Have you ever seen any of these scientific tests in real life or are you speculating, I suspect the latter.

I have actually witnessed the testing that takes place and it's nothing like what you sceptically described.

Firstly the lab technicians/scientists spend huge amounts of time and effort (at great expense) trialling numerous additives packages, it's only once they have completely rigorous testing that a fuel additive package is released for public usage. The companies concerned face potentially £millions of liability claims if they get it wrong.

When they test a particular additive package they have to ensure there is absolutely no trace of any previous additive package within the fuel system. A complete drain and flush out of the entire fuel system is carried out prior to any given test procedure, otherwise the test results are contaminated and the test would be deemed null are void.

The additive package used in Shell FuelSave is designed to ignite as uniform a combustion burn pattern as possible to ensure as much energy is extracted as possible from any given injection of fuel within the limits of any given engine design. Some engines are inherently more effective at translating combustion energy into motion and mpg, engine cleaning similarly applies (i.e. some engine designs are inherently more effective at staying clean than other designs.

Just taking the cylinder head off and observing if it looks fairly clean doesn't show what else is going on in the rest of the engine. A petrol engine with indirect injectors that are out of the way of a direct combustion explosion may have relatively clean injectors, whereas an engine with direct injectors are more vulnerable to carbon deposits as a result of their proximity within the actual direct combustion explosion cycle.

In addition, for example, in a diesel engine the cylinder head may look clean but it doesn't necessarily follow the rest of the engine system is clean, the MAF and EGR systems could be filthy which would directly have a massive negative impact on fuel economy and mpg.

Coming back to your original query. The mpg difference is negligible, too many variables involved to nail it down to anything in particular, weather temperature changes alone of say 5c will noticeably impact mpg up or down, wet roads, head winds all impact on mpg, slightly differing driving style, differing traffic conditions, the variables are many.

The fuel companies have to repeat their tests over and over and obtain the same results again and again, they do so in control conditions as it's the only way of providing predictability and reliability. If they change one parameter, say one of the chemicals in their additive package, they do get a different result.

All - Fuel Save? - RT

I thought that the use of additives, even at the refinery, was always a big variable as the characteristics of fuel is varying all the time in the continuous refining process and therefore the amount of each additive is continuously varying.

Certainly the effect of octane improvers varies wildly as the amount of octane improver already in the fuel to meet EN standards has to continuously vary.

All - Fuel Save? - unthrottled

I have actually witnessed the testing that takes place and it's nothing like what you sceptically described.

Yes, I've spent some time in test cells too, thanks.

The additive package used in Shell FuelSave is designed to ignite as uniform a combustion burn pattern as possible to ensure...

As opposed to the fuels which aren't designed in to ignite properly? The only factor that really matters is combustion duration as a function of crank angle. This is governed by combustion chamber shape, mixture preparation and air motion. Tinkering with the fuel will not make it burn faster. If you've spent some time in test cells, I'm sure you've seen datalogging of in cylinder pressure vs theta plots for different fuels...?

Just taking the cylinder head off and observing if it looks fairly clean doesn't show what else is going on in the rest of the engine.

Well, the cylinder head 'sees' the combustion. The bottom end of the engine does not. So looking at the combustion chambers seems like a good place to start!

The rest? Well the piston crowns were clean, the bores were excellent with the honing intact. Oil consumption was (and is) negligible. The oil is slow to darken (indicating low soot formation). All indicative of a healthy engines.

whereas an engine with direct injectors are more vulnerable to carbon deposits as a result of their proximity within the actual direct combustion explosion cycle.

Well, we agree on that! But most petrol engines on the road today are port injected. Why do people with port injected engines worry about deposits?

All - Fuel Save? - jamie745

As opposed to the fuels which aren't designed in to ignite properly?

LOL

That is all.

All - Fuel Save? - brum

Methinks some posters expressing experience/expertise they dont have.