Sorry BB my mistake - 2015 for upgrade(?) to DAB.
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I bought a DAB tuner and it is one of the biggest mistakes of my live, cost me £100 too. I still prefer my old Sony analogue tuner. I find the bit rate of DAB quite frankly offensive, not only is it low bitrate but it uses an ancient MPEG codac too. I would much rather DAB had less stations but all broacasted in a higher bit rate. I can't listen to 128kbps broadcasts I just find them harsh and lacking in any detail at all, a few are 160kbps I think and they are not too bad. I find that 192kbps and it starts to become FM quality providing the DAC it is fed into is half decent.
My biggest concern on is that digital radio is not really suited to cars because if an analgoue FM broadcasts becomes faint you just tend to loose stereo and you get a bit of crackle but with digital it will just go off or become extremely blocky rendering it useless.
I really miss my old Denon analgoue tuner which I got gonned into swapping.
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>I really miss my old Denon analgoue tuner which I got gonned into swapping.
>>>>> i got a cracking sansui tuner amp off ebay for a £10,try there for your denon, but a better one would be a pioneer one from the 70"s if you can find one and into dx ing
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Got a nice early eighties Technics tuner if you want Rattle.
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I have a nice early eighties Pioneer tuner. When it packed up about 10 years ago I took it to an independant for repair and he raved about the quality and that they don't make them like this anymore etc etc. Still works.
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I've got a lovely Tany one some where, it has a german make on it but apparantly it was a budget Tandy model sold in the early 70's. It has a lovely analogue strip which has a back lamp and there is no phono connectors just a german DIN connector so I had to get a conversion. I think my sister uses this now, her amp is is a late 70's Pionneer unit and she I think her friends are always amazed on how good it sounds. The oldest item I have on my hifi is a mid 90's Rotel preamp I use as a phono stage and extra inputs for my Cambridge Azure 640 intergrated.
To bring this thread back on topic hopefully by 2015 DAB codacs would have improved massively but I will still miss that lovely warmth you get from a good FM tuner.
Also most eurobox in car sound systems are so awful that it would be hard to tell the differences between bit rates anyway.
Edited by Rattle on 17/06/2009 at 01:03
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Unlike digital TV I can't see 100's of thousands of drivers being able to easily upgrade their radios to DAB in only 6 years time, and AFAIK car producers are still going to be putting 'old' FM radios in new cars right up to this date.
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Can't you still get tape players in some cars?
I think it's stupid that everything is going to be DAB and FM/AM is going to be turned off, i guess they just want less people listening to the radio, The main reason people have taken up digital TV is because it's what new flat screen High-Def TV's have built in if the TV's weren't High-Def and didn't use up less space then the big old CRT's I'm sure not many people would of upgraded.
Whats the advantage of DAB then? more Rubbish you've no interest in listening to like Radio 1 Extra (the Racist radio station? ---but thats another debate)?
2 Local radio stations have just switched over to being pre-recorded or national broadcasts which is a shame as they've lost the interactive feel they had before, is this goign to be the trend thats followed?
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From the report ...
Digital radio in vehicles: a five point programme
In-car listening represents a significant portion of total radio listening (around
20%). It is important that listeners have the confidence they will continue to
have access to their favourite stations in their cars after the Radio Upgrade.
Therefore, we are proposing the following measures to support take-up of digital
radio in new and existing vehicles sold in the UK. We will: Work with manufacturers
1. so that vehicles sold with a radio are digitally enabled by the end of 2013;
2. Support a common logo for digital radios and ensure that non-DAB radios, and
their limitations, are clearly labelled;
3. Encourage the development of portable digital converters, such as the Pure
Highway, and the integration of DAB into other vehicle devices such as Sat-
Navs;
4. Promote the introduction of more sophisticated traffic information via DAB
and comprehensive marketing by broadcasters; and
5. Work with our European partners, including the European Commission, to
develop a common European approach to digital radio. We have approached
the European Commission to encourage them to lead a Community-wide
effort. Such an approach, as was adopted in digital television, could provide
certainty well in advance for vehicle manufacturers and those providing in-car
devices to bring the unit price of conversion down.
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The DAB system currently used in this country is based on old technology.
It's very bandwidth hungry and costs too much to broadcast for most local stations.
At one time, if the BBC broadcast Test Match Special on 5Live Extra, the DAB service of Radio 4 was switched to mono because there were not enough bits to go around.
The government seems determined to carry on with DAB, but with newer digital technologies so superior, it could become the Betamax/VHS of radio.
It is a nightmare, regulation-wise, because shortly after a system is adopted, in this case DAB, it becomes outdated.
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There are ares of Scotland where you still can't get FM, never mind DAB. And ha vey ouever list ed to a DA broaca t in the lake dis ict?
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There are ares of Scotland where you still can't get FM never mind DAB. And ha vey ouever list ed to a DA broaca t in the lake dis ict?
It's not just the sticks. BBC DAB reception in Reading (population: 250,000, distance from London: 40 miles) stinks. I have contacted them several times, however they deny any problem. The signal all around my house drops out quite frequently, and when using my portable MP3 player/Walkman size device, all the BBC stations are useless unless I stand still in a sweet spot. Which is hardly the point.
This bodes ill for the chances of getting a decent signal in a car around town. I am not overly excited about this new plan, unless they invest in some serious transmitter upgrades.
The odd thing is, all the non-BBC stations are fine, around my house and all around town.
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It's not just the sticks. BBC DAB reception in Reading (population: 250 000 distance from London: 40 miles) stinks. I have contacted them several times however they deny any problem. The odd thing is all the non-BBC stations are fine around my house and all around town.
Not sure what the issue is in Reading ( low transmit power or frequency planning or what) but at least your experience is consistent with the coverage predictor:-
www.ukdigitalradio.com/coverage/postcodesearch/def...e
Sorry can't link direct to RG1 1AA which I tried, but it shows BBC stations as dodgy without an outdoor antenna.
Not much consolation I suppose :-/
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Not much consolation I suppose :-/
Nope, but thanks for your input and the link. :-)
My home postcode suggests that I should be able to get the BBC stations perfectly well, as opposed to RG1 1AA which has them down as dodgy. However, my experience at home is patchy. I am about to move house, but only 4 streets away, and the postcode there seems to match the results for RG1 1AA, which is a bit depressing. If the reception is poorer than at my current address, it'll be unuseable without an outdoor aerial.
All very disppointing for a major urban area with a substantial population of licence fee payers. Grrr. P'raps I'll just get an external aerial installed. More money. Double grrrr.
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Even Malta uses DAB+ I believe... How long before UK DAB receivers currently being bought become obsolete themselves?
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The car I hired in the US last summer had a very effective multi channel Satellite radio - it was very good even if the material was a bit iffy ! BBC Radio one and crystal clear World Service was one of the benefit.
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So, judging from Marlot's summary of the report further up thread somone has realised that to get anywhere near FM's market penetration levels you need lots of in car listeners, which just hasn't happened with DAB; presumably that's down to the fact there's no Europe wide standard so car manufacturer's aren't keen on fitting different radios for different markets.
So, about 15 years too late, they're talking about having a European standard for digital radio broadcast. ho hum.
Personally I like DAB, I'm happy to trade off the ultimate in audio quality for a bigger range of stations than FM ( in my case specifically Planet Rock and 6 Music), 128kbs MP2 is OK, I imagine some of the lower bitrate stations sound a bit medium wave though. Most of my radio listeining these days is streamed from the 'net via wifi anyway, a tad tricky in the car unless you like big phone bills....
Agree with previous posters you can get some cracking high end 70s/80s audio for peanuts on eBay.
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I have found DAB to be useful as a Radio Alarm. The way it instantly sets and keeps the correct time when tuned to a DAB station - contrasted with radio wave synchronised and `memory` FM types, both needing batteries despite being mains powered.
Edited by oilrag on 17/06/2009 at 10:09
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RDS which we've had for years also gives the time,station display and changes frequency automatically to follow the station around the country.
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There are around 32m cars on UK roads - I would estimate two-thirds have an FM/AM radio.
Nice work for the car radio manufacturers if and when the switchover occurs, but a nightmare and unnecessary additional costs for motorists.
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A balanced report in one of today's ex-broadsheets - switch off 2015 and the industry to encourage digital converters for cars to be developed (I believe that Pure already make one) - the kits will be as cheap as chips no doubt given market forces. Why worry really ?
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Yes, a fair point. From a personal point of view, based on experience with my Pure DMX-60, I like DAB for the following reasons ( in decending order of importance to me):-
As mentioned above more choice of stations.
'live pause' facility so I can skip bits I don't like ( Ok you do do this with analogue for £££)
EPG data (for some stations) so I can automatically record to SD with a few button presses.
Very occasional burst of 'boiling mud' is less annoying to me than constant background low level hiss on FM.
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>>..with my Pure DMX-60,>>
One of the superior DAB manufacturers.
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The "entertainment system" in my Vectra has FM & DAB
Ive always found the DAB, to work really well until i go into the Yorkshire Dales then it does cut off, but you can change to FM
I to like the Extra stations such as BBC7, but i have no issues when driving on motorways, and around any other town outside the the Yorkshire Dales.
As for the comment about "eurobox radios" being rubbish, I have to disagree, the sound system in the Vectra is fantastic quality and packed full of features,.
I used to have a top of the range sony head unit in my Astra, again feature packed but it didnt sound as good, but i think this is due to the quality of the factory fit speakers.
However the speaker and head unit system in the Vectra excelled my expectations. and i would not dream of removing it for a 3rd party device.
However I do agree, that in rural areas the system needs further upgrading to reach these parts
Edited by redviper on 17/06/2009 at 12:35
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bring on DRM shortwave radio.
Get lots of stations from around the world (don't own one but want one).
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Quite apart from the poor audio quality and poor coverage, and the fact that your existing DAB radio will become obsolete when DAB+ arrives, the actual choice of radio stations is very narrow on DAB. And DAB is all about the state (aka OFCOM) retaining control over your radio listening choice. The future of in-car radio is Internet Radio delivered over the 3G phone network - there are thousands of stations to choose from! And you can do it today!
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Quite apart from the poor audio quality and poor coverage and the fact that your existing DAB radio will become obsolete when DAB+ arrives the actual choice of radio stations is very narrow on DAB.
The choice of stations on DAB isn't narrow compared with FM ! Yes of course my radio will be obsolete at some point in the future, but that is an undefined number of years away, at which point a DAB+ radio should be sufficiently cheap to make replacement painless.
The future of in-car radio is Internet Radio delivered over the 3G phone network - there are thousands of stations to choose from! And you can do it today!
Well yes you can do that now on some phones, but if significant numbers of people started doing it then the 3G network would fall over very quickly, for sure phone networks aren't designed for large numbers of people having simualteous streaming connections at any meaningful bandwidth. That's ignoring the non trivial cost to the user of all this bandwidth, 'all you can eat' 3G data products tend to have very low maximum download limits in my experience. It ain't gonna happen, even LTE would have trouble coping with the bandwidth requirements.
Edited by SpamCan61 {P} on 17/06/2009 at 14:48
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over the 3G phone network - there are thousands of stations to choose from! And you can do it today!
No you cant!
3G coverage is worse than DAB coverage, there are no 3G internet radios for cars to buy,
Plus
the bit rate of some internet radios, make DAB sound like a live concert.
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Plus the bit rate of some internet radios make DAB sound like a live concert.
LOL, most of the stations I listen to online are around 64K which is somewhat medium wave in quality; the only one I listen to that sounds somewhat better than 128K MP2 DAB is Absolute Classic Rock which is available via a whole load of different codecs and bitrates, the 160k OGG stream is pretty damn good to my ears.
www.absoluteradio.co.uk/listen/on_your_computer.ht...l
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OGG/Vorbis has already been proven to be a better more efficient codec at lower bit rates compared to mp3.
so a 64kbps OGG stream will have the same audio quality like 128 Kbps mp3 stream.
The ultimate quality would be Flac (completely lossless codec) but that's not really a streaming protocol !
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I've never listened to a 64k OGG station, I'll see if I can find one when I get home, most of my current favourites are 64k MP3 or WMA and one or two AAC+ IIRC.
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good luck SpamCan61, let us know how you get on.
From my own testing I did find that OGG definitely did do more for less compared to MP3.
Unfortunately its not in mainstream use as much as mp3 (no doubt commercial sales pressures way a heavy hand against open standards)
ogg vs mp3 format here :-
old.techno.fm/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3521
audio tests here (in various file formats) :-
www.xciv.org/~meta/audio-shootout/
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You can listen to Internet Radio in your car this way: tinyurl.com/ljj9fn
And Blaupunkt demonstrated two Internet Car Radios at this years CES tinyurl.com/d7zo2n
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Fantastic compared to what? A £100 mini system? However larger cars do tend to have better audio systems, the one in my dads Escort was ok. I think the big problem with my Corsa is the standard fit factory speakers they just sound flat and the bass is actually just overblown into the mid range. Yet some tonally deaf people have commited on the good bass :(.
The other issue I haven't mentioned here FM is that the radio stations tend to compress the frequency responce of their output so incar systems can handle them. The result is that put a commcercial radio station through a HIFI tuner and it can sound squashed, this means for me the BBC stations are a lot better, apart from Radio 1 which also uses this compression.
Internet radio is ok, but on the ones I have used the bit rate has been 64kbps which makes it useless but if if the bit rate is 192kbps or above it can sound quite good especialy through my M-AUDIO sound card.
I would like to see a proper HIFI setup in car, all the ICE systems I have seen that chavs are into just have this really bright harsh sound but good bass responce. Why can't we have a nice head unit with a decent FM/DAD/CD player and a decent DAC? This then feeds into a nice amplifer system which uses audiophile grade capacitors feeding high quality speakers houses in an area designed for its frequency responce. I think Lexus do this, as they use one of the big British HIFI companies to design their sound systems, I think it might be Linn can't remember.
The worst car we ever had for sound quality was the Punto SX, it was so dull and tinny and that was before I became an audiophile.
I suppose the general public don't really care, so car companies are not going to spend £300 fitting a HIFI system in a £6000 car.
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I would say fantastic in everyway
The speaker system is as good as a high quality hi-fi system (and I categorically insist on having the best home hi-fi system (that I can afford) esp to get the best lo, mid and high range in all aspects).
My highest passion in life is music of many genres, and that?s why I invested in a top spec system for the home and its still performing brilliantly at 5 years old.
My Astra (probs like your corsa) could only produce bass through the midrange, and the treble was to high, turn it down and it sounded flat.
Despite this the head unit was not to blame the original Vauxhall (basic stereo) one taken out, the Sony head unit did its best, but it was never right no different to the Vauxhall , this was due to the low frequency response of the standard fit speakers and generally the loud wind noise of the Astra its self.
The Vectra (Vauxhall Factory Fit) Stereo is another matter.
Separate user controlled Graphic Equalizer for each CD Auto-changer, DAB, FM, AM
Presets for each one, ?Rock, Jazz Pop? etc
8 Speakers through out the car give a fantastic Audio response through out the car, even at low volumes I can still hear rich bass sounds
In the Astra (also 8 speakers) I had two choices, get a decent volume on the Stereo, or listen to SWMBO chattering on.
The Vectra I can do both as the sound is rich enough to have at low volume
Volume auto increases to compensate for road noise (not that there is barely any)
Cd Changer, although a little complicated at 1st is now fantastic and easy to use.
DAB Reception is brilliant, if there is non just flick to FM
Im sorry but the ?entertainment system? in the Vectra DOES sound as good as a high quality system. And this is coming from a person who likes MP3?s encoded at 360kbs, anything less than 256kbs is torture to my ears, so I do know what im talking about.
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Edit:
Im not saying that its as good as say a home system costing £1000 +, but i think its as gooad as it needs to be in a car, and it sounds as good as anything you can buy for the home at a large elctrical retailer
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That is interesting, I wonder if I could simply replace those speakers but leave my original Philips CD head unit in. However it probably still won't sound right and it would cause insurance problems etc. One of my customers has a £8K Linn system and compared to my low mid end Cambridge/Marantz/M Audio setup it sounds amazing but then it did cost nearly £7k more.
The trick with audio compromises is to make sure the listeners dosn't feel they are missing something. When I use my Nokia N85 with 256kbps WMA files and my portable Senny PX100 headphones I don't feel like I am missing anything at all. Yet plug in my more expensive and better Goldring headphones or my old Beyer DXT330s it sounds horrible. I think my dads Escort had the balance just right, I never really thought that sounds flat etc, I just knew it was a compromise but still enjoyed the music.
I am also very old fashioned when it comes to music and believe anything in the signal path is a distraction. I don't even use tone controls, I get the tonal balance right by choosing the right speakers to match my amp and sources. Sadly driving means I now have a lot less money to spend on HIFI so I don't intend to do any upgrades anymore.
PS Red sorry I wasn't having a dig at you personaly, I just see a lot of tonaly deaf people thinking a system sounds good when it actually sounds awful. I am talking about the 300 watts init brigade. I think you will find your system actually produces 6 watts per channel RMS sir. At least now trading standards have warned HIFI companies not to sell their products using PMPO figures and to always use RMS also stating the load e.g 8 ohms. I think my Cambridge produces 75 watts per channel and people say that must be loud, no I don't care about that, but I do care about having enough power to get a tight grip on that bass.
At least I know if I ever want an audiophile car I need to buy a Vectra :).
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Rattle:
Its ok I know you wernt having a go @ me
If i came across as abrupt, i didnt mean to
However you seem to know your stuff, I to am a sucker for perfect quality of music thats why i invested in a top spec home hifi with a decent set of speakers.
SWMBO on the other hand cant see the difference - phfft
The vectra has a fantastic audio system in my eyes anyway, and its not worth ripping it out to fit a aftermarket one
The DAB works brilliantly (providing there is coverage) and so does everything else with it.
I can tell the difference in a low quality compressed mp3, thats why my computer is full of 320k Mp3's or FLAC, size isnst a issue for me, sound quality is.
Edited by redviper on 17/06/2009 at 18:19
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"I think it might be Linn"
Mark Levinson, although I suspect he was only a 'consultant'. I only know because a Lexus-owning friend complained how much it cost him to have repaired when it gave trouble!
Nice enough sound, but lots of speakers do not HiFi make, as LJK Setright used to point out.
I doubt that Linn would have anything to do with ICE...
Edited by J Bonington Jagworth on 17/06/2009 at 17:01
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Until recently Linn did do the sound systems for some Aston Martins, but after Ford sold Aston, they changed to Bang & Olufsen.
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