Hi all Back-roomers. Given the increase in traffic in towns would it be a good idea to give pedestrians priority when crossing the road using existing pedestrian refuges.
I.e. when a pedestrian is standing at a refuge in the middle of the road should the traffic on the relevant carriageway be required to stop and allow him/her to cross ? Having got 2 small kids and living near a fairly busy road we're frequently 'stuck' in the middle of the road whilst cars, buses, lorries etc. whizz past - even in the rain ! What do you think ? to
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What you really need, particularly with small kids, is a proper pedestrian crossing of some kind, with lights (flashing orange ones or red/amber/green ones), road markings and warning signs if necessary. If you're going to interrupt the traffic flow on the road by giving pedestrians crossing the road priority, I think you need something more big and obvious than just a refuge, to give road traffic plenty of advanced warning. Even the most pedestrian friendly car/bus/lorry driver navigating in an unfamiliar town could fail to see someone stood next to a traffic island.
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You could probably equip fifteen refuges with pedestrian-controlled lights for the cost of one camera and save a lot of accidents.
On the other hand, pedestrian-controlled lights do not produce a profit.
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You could probably equip fifteen refugees with pedestrian-controlled lights and solve two problems at once.
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volvoman
dont agree peds should get right of way at refuges
however agree there should be more ped crossings (which have beacons etc so you can see from far enough away - which refuges dont)
also think many refuges are badly designed and dont offer enough space for peds stuck in them - for this and similar poor road design suggest you take it up with the council and their engineers
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Please don't use the abbreviation "ped". It has a very unpleasant meaning for a large problem where I live and of course recent events in UK.
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>>...a very unpleasant meaning for a large problem where I live and of course recent events in UK.
Including the South African Paediatrician, who was the victim of semi-literate vigilantes!
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also think many refuges are badly designed and dont offer enough space for peds stuck in them
Crazed,
I totally agree, if refuges are to be used as crossing then they will need to be designed as such. A case example is when I walk my daughters to the local park (in a pushchair) we have to cross a main junction with a set of lights but no pedestrian control (request?). When we reach the refuge, I have to be very careful that either the front of the pushchair or my backside isn't jutting out into the line of traffic ...and no my ar*e isn't that big, thank you very much.
Chad.R
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Crazed - have taken this up with the council but apparently you need to have a high number of pedestrian movements to warrant a designated crossing. The complex paraphernalia which accompanies them ensures they are hideously expensive and hence hard to justify to the tax payer. The present situation is that pedestrians and drivers have no clear rules to work to in these circumstances and this confusion is what is dangerous. If it were law and in the Highway Code that drivers should give way to pedestrians in central refuges everybody would know what their rights/obligations were and there would be no need for complex and expensive signing. I don't think this should apply to pedestrians trying to cross the road from the pavement - just those who have got halfway and found themselves stuck in what is a very intimidating and dangerous predicament. Of course if yer average drive was more considerate in these circumstances there would be no need to legislate but I can tell you that being stuck in the middle of a busy road with 2 small children sheltering behind a small plastic bollard is no place to be and the sourse of quite a few unexpected bowel movements !
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bad road design and poor allocation of resources would seem to be the real problem here, and the councils and their engineers are to blame
really dont think change in law to push problem onto drivers is sensible
lots of poor road design is leading to ridiculously low speed limits as it is (it would often be easier to sort out the obvious poor road design issue), and other measures to impede drivers
the councils, their staff, and their engineers should be brought to task and sacked where necessary
i know the same people keep designing dangerous roads year after year and cause countless deaths - but they are never brought to book
refuges in many places are not visible enough to make changing the rules as you suggest sensible
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Crazed I don't know what your refuges look like but ours aren't easy to miss with their large concrete plinths and illuminated bollards and 4-5m light post. Remember the need to give way to pedestrians would only be an issue on relatively busy roads where people tend to get stuck half way across. I don't think councils or tax payers would be prepared to spend £millions to redesign poor layouts or install numerous crossings. Surely the refuges already exist and are used by pedestrians to assist with crossing so I don't see having to slow down to let people cross causing any additional problems. After all some drivers already do it of their own volition the only thing being that other drivers present might not be aware that this is their intention. Surely this situation is more dangerous than having a rule which everybody understands. If you're going to hit a refuge you're going to hit it whether or not there are any pedestrians present. Surely however it would be better to hit an empty refue so anything which assists people to vacate them has to be a good idea doesn't it ?
ps. I do agree with you about traffic planners who seem to do all sorts of crazy things.
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to be honest I dont see why a couple of beacons at either side of the road and a few bits of paint are that expensive ?
some refuges are easy to spot, but remember if you dont know the area, and there is say a lorry turning right in front of you, a refuge slightly further on would be impossible to see, and letting the pedestrians (in full!) think they can walk out willy nilly is hardly a safe thing to do
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But surely that can happen anyway, whether or not pedestrians have priority. Also a driver faced with the position you suggest and a blind spot should have slowed down anyway just in case there was something the other side of the lorry. Although I agree that pedestrians have to be responsible I don't think many people would just walk out into heavy traffic 'willy nilly'.
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re the "willy nilly" bit
there are areas where the councils and local anti-car brigade are writing so much rubbish in the local press about "we're turning the roads back over to the pedestrians, we are encourgaing cars away etc etc" that the pedestrians DO walk out willy nilly - they have pretty much been told by officialdom that any accidents will be the fault of the driver
its not really sensible
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I would agree with you on that score but remember most of the roads we're talking about are not residential and wouldn't be covered by the sort of 'reclaim our streets' schemes you talk abo
By the way, I think everybody should be allowed to have cars barred from their areas just as long as all the residents give up their own cars first !!
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" I think everybody should be allowed to have cars barred from their areas just as long as all the residents give up their own cars first "
You miss the point about the mindset of these people volvoman. The residents don't need to give up their own cars because they know themselves to be perfectly safe drivers when there are kids about. They know this because they concentrate on their speedometers to make sure they don't go over the 20mph limit they campaigned to introduce.
GJD
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You might like to read the post I put in the Euro cycle laws thread as its relevant here too.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=6999&m...e
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I will check the Highway code, but IIRC, pedestrians heave right of way in most traffic situataions.
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I wouldn't object if the Highway Code was worded in the same way as for giving way to buses trying to pull out, you should endeavour to give way if possible and it is safe to do so. I wouldn't want to see pedestrians given a divine priority as I think this would end up causing more danger than not and also uncertaintity in the driver.
As an aside how many drivers do you know who realise that a pedestrian crossing a side road that you are entering have priority?
On the subject of crossings we should count ourselves lucky that we have crossings that are obeyed, I have just returned from Turkey and there zebra type crossings are just a waste of paint. Actually I think they are designed to lure pedestrians on to the road so they can be honked at before becoming emblems for the bonnet!!
Cockle
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>>As an aside how many drivers do you know who realise that a pedestrian crossing a side road that you are entering have priority?<<
Not many. I sometimes think I am the only one who knows this law. Unfortunately, if the driver doesn't know this, at the Pearly Gates I don't believe that St Peter has the authority to reverse deaths so caution is still warranted.
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>> As an aside how many drivers do you know who realise >> that a pedestrian crossing a side road that you are >> entering have priority?
Not many. I sometimes think I am the only one who knows this law.
Actually, as all legal motorists need to study and pass a test on the Highway Code to be licensed to drive on the road, I suspect that they all know this law.
However, how many pedestrians realise that they are supposed to comply with the following:
The Highway Code is essential reading for everyone. Its rules apply to all road users, pedestrians, horseriders and cyclists.....
avoid walking next to the kerb with your back to the traffic.
If you have to step into the road, look both ways first.
It may be safer to cross the road well before a sharp right-hand bend
Help other road users to see you.....
Young children should not be out alone on the pavement or road.
When taking children out, walk between them and the traffic and hold their hands firmly.
Strap very young children into push-chairs or use reins
Many children cannot judge how fast vehicles are going or how far away they are.
First find a safe place to cross.
Try to avoid crossing between parked cars (see Rule 14) and on blind bends and brows of hills.
Never cross behind a vehicle which is reversing, showing white reversing lights or sounding a warning
If there is no pedestrian crossing nearby, cross the road near a street light
At traffic lights. There may be special signals for pedestrians. You should only start to cross the road when the green figure shows.
If no pedestrian signals have been provided, watch carefully and do not cross until the traffic lights are red and the traffic has stopped.
Pelican crossings. When the red figure shows, do not cross.
When a steady green figure shows, check the traffic has stopped then cross with care.
When the green figure begins to flash you should not start to cross.
Has anyone ever seen any pedestrian comply with any of the above?
Oh, and I nearly forgot:
At a junction. When crossing the road, look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you.
Stop just before you get to the kerb,
Look all around for traffic and listen
If traffic is coming, let it pass.
Do not cross until there is a safe gap in the traffic and you are certain that there is plenty of time.
always check that the traffic has stopped before you start to cross or push a pram onto a crossing
Zebra crossings. Give traffic plenty of time to see you and to stop before you start to cross.
Wait until traffic has stopped from both directions or the road is clear before crossing.
Unfortunately, if the [pedestrian] doesn't know this, at the Pearly Gates I don't believe that St Peter has the authority to reverse deaths so caution is still warranted.
However if all the above (just a selection from the Pedestrians section of the highway code) were enforced, instead of the government hitting its target of reducing pedestrian fatalities by 40%, you probably achieve 94%.
At no cost.
And if they didn't waste money on congestion engineering they could afford a proper air ambulance and trauma unit service for the remaining 6% of Kamikaze Pedestrians, and us motorists too.
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bogush
Tend to agree.
Unfortunately pedestrians don't have to pass a test requiring a knowledge of the Highway Code, perhaps road safety should be made part of the National Curriculum. At least then we would have a generation growing up realising that all road users have a responsibility to each other and not just that all motorists have horns growing out of their heads!
You are perfectly correct that all drivers should have learnt the Highway Code, sadly, many never read it again once they've passed their test believing that once they have passed they are fully qualified and have no need to learn anymore.
Has anyone ever seen any pedestrian comply with any of the above?
This is the only point I disagree on, I have; and probably so have you, it's just that so many don't comply that the ones who do get lost in the crowd!
Cockle
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