hi guys. im gonna be buying a 54 reg golf tomorrow, and it would be great if was chain, but its done 70k and if its cambelt then i will need to change it, so if you could help, it would be greats, cheers everyone. ;-)
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 10/10/2008 at 01:26
|
A Golf V 105PS 1.9 TDi PD [BKC engine] is a belt - best done every 40K/4yrs with new tensioner, guide and water pump too.
I see no advantage whatsoever in using long chains for driving cams.
|
I see no advantage whatsoever in using long chains for driving cams.
>>
Are you serious Screwloose? Aside from anything else there is the cost, it is cheaper to make a car with a cambelt though it is cheaper to run a car with a camchain.
2 belt changes in 120k miles could easily cost £1000, more for a 4 cam V6 etc with 2 belts (the 60k change on my Vectra V6 was around £650). I have saved around a £1000 in belt changes over 130k miles compared to a similar car with a cambelt, and that is based on 60k belt changes when 40k is recomended for many.
The saving can be perhaps as much a a penny a mile which is equal to 10% in fuel costs.
And even more for those that do, say, only 4000 miles a year and need a belt change at 5 years despite the low mileage, that means, say, a £400 job at 25k miles, adds 1.6p per mile to the running costs.
|
The VAG belt change interval for my 05 105TDi MkV is 80k miles. So , if the car you're looking at is 4+ years/70k, it is due for a change.
Regarding belt vs chain, I seem to recall that cam-chains on some cars (cannot remember which) need changing at 100k - if that is so, would that cost appreciably more than a belt?
|
|
|
Are you serious Screwloose?
Yes; absolutely. There is no better way of driving the cam[s] than a toothed belt. Long chains were tried from the 20s to the 80s - and regularly failed.
There is also no inherent reason why changing one should take more than 15 minutes. I could do a Sierra in 8 minutes and an Escort in 12 - anything longer is down to poor design; or a deliberate desire to increase workshop profits.
A wide belt; durable tensioner/guides and a gas-pressure tensioner can easily last 150K reliably - a lot more reliably than the chains on Nissans; Vauxhalls; Volkswagens etc. Most belt failures are not the fault of the belt.
Edited by Screwloose on 10/10/2008 at 14:35
|
OK.
Rightly or wrongly the design of modern engines does not allow a 15 min change, wide belts are not fitted, tensioners tend to be a weak point and gas-pressure tensioners are not fitted widely, belts are known to fail at less than 50K.
Where as chains, in general, are reliable.
The key point though is that a belt is a service item, it requires changing, where as in general a chain doesnt.
So in today's engine design status quo chains make sense for the owner in terms of reliability and cost of running, as per my previous point.
|
Some current belt designs have a 150K change interval. For a system that's lighter, smoother and much cheaper to produce - that's game over.
If you have to pay more for the chain-equipped car in the first place; where's the saving.
Even the damage from the percentage of belts that fail catastrophically is usually less than the cost of replacing a chain on something like a Micra - currently around £1400 every 50,000 on average.
|
I was more thinking along the lines of the latest engines such as the 2.8V6 from GM/Holden as found in the Saab Aero v6 and Vectra Elite and VXR. Early days yet, but the chains are meant to last 200k+.
dv.
|
|
|
>> Even the damage from the percentage of belts that fail catastrophically is usually less than the cost... >>
It is not just the cost of repair, I have know a couple of people who have had catastrphic belt failures before the due mileage, both (an Alfa 147 and a 1.6 16v Scenic) were repaired though the engines were a shadow of their former selves, rather than being crisp and sweet reving they were rough, perhaps not surprising considering that the engine's internals had got all mixed up at whatever 000 rpm.
>>... of replacing a chain on something like a Micra - currently around £1400 every 50 000 on average.
If a cam chain needs replacing at 50k miles that is simply poor design. I know of 13,000 rpm chain driven motorcycle engines that have done 200k on the original chain.
EDIT: To be clear I have no problem with belt driven cams, it is simply that the cost to change has to be accounted for in running costs.
Edited by cheddar on 11/10/2008 at 09:38
|
|
|
Even the damage from the percentage of belts that fail catastrophically is usually less than the cost of replacing a chain on something like a Micra - currently around £1400 every 50 000 on average.
Chain problems on the K11 Micra are relatively rare UNLESS regular oil changes (every 4k) have been skipped. The majority see 100k miles and beyond without issue, so I'd like to see a cite for your statistic. Remember this was a car that was and still is known for its good value and reliability. Dropping £1400 every 50k miles would've put paid to that reputation long ago.
|
My comments refer to the K12 and are based on first-hand experience of seeing dozens being replaced in a dealer's workshop.
The lowest mileage one that they've done was at 5,000 miles - explain that on missed oil-changes.
Edited by Screwloose on 12/10/2008 at 19:17
|
|
Apologies, I wrongly assumed you were referring to the K11. I guess not everything improves with time. At least the previous generation showed that a well-designed chain cam engine can be more or less trouble free.
|
Just one or two simple point to make, due to the nature of modern engines it is near impossible to carry out a timing belt change in an hour or two. Since it appears that when the chap that was designing this part, he must have been high on something and was not thinking straight.
From what I know, in the K11 Micra it is advised that the head is removed as is the sump. Poor design or what. If a micra as done nearly 60K miles and is only worth £1000-1600, does one scrap the car or have the job done???.
Why can?t designers make things simple. I believe the old Vauxhall Cavalier was an example of this. Hydraulic tappet adjustment (rockers and followers could be replaced without having to remove the Camshaft), if the timing belt or anything in that area broke, then if would not damage anything since I believe it was a safe type engine. I believe that?s what they call them.
If the clutch was slipping you could replace the plate without removing the gearbox.
Getting to the oil filter, spark plugs all very easy.
The simple days. !!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
![2017 Volkswagen Golf 1.4 TSI SE [Nav] 5dr DSG](http://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/url/crop/90x60/https/cdn.uk.prod.group-mobility-trader.com/images/cas/4f1236b74e75ea7239ae062842a7a095/0b962178336efbd37993301b2acd1bf2.jpg)
