Is it just me or does there seem to be rather a lot more VW problems in the technical section. More so than cheaper brands. Having seen what has happened to Mercedes (through this forum). I wonder why?
Edited subject line to bring it up to date and include drop down menus
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 01/11/2007 at 20:57
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True Carl2, VW and the Germans generally do seem to have rather taken over, just look at the number of headings for Omega Autobahnstormers lately. This can't be accused of being a Citroën forum any more. Oh well, gives DW a chance to get his harvest in, that's if he's not contemplating growing rice this year!!!!!
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LZ,
No need for the rice yet, managed to pick the only two suitable weeks of the year so far to do the hay.
Actually despite jokes about wet in The Fens they are one of the safer places with these current flooding problems UK-wide. At least we have all the drainage dykes and pumps in place for routine water management, it's only a matter of running them a little harder to cope with the excess water. Also we are thankfully (mostly) free of huge hard surfaced areas (houses/towns) that give rise to run-off. There are still plenty of fields to soak up the rain.
Importantly the roads are often higher than the surrounding land so we could get about for ages with a few feet of water lying everywhere else.
Having said all that The Fens could possibly be a problem if there was a global incident that forced the sea levels up rapidly, the new coastline might be located at the eastern edge of Peterborough!
As for VW we're revisiting a discussion I forcefully joined last summer.
Take a VW from the 60s/70s and compare it with a new Cortina or Marina of the time.....the VWs were in a completely different class for build quality.
Take a 1993 Golf and a Citroen ZX of the same age, then look at them now with 100K on the clock and they are likely to be quite similar for condition.
Then move onto a new VW and compare with the others, they are all much closer these days. I think I said last time VW seem to have slipped a bit but the main factor is that the others have caught up massively over the past 30yrs.
David W
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David, I remember as a boy the enormous flooding in the fens in 1947 which was a national disaster.
Huge amounts of ballidon, road stone etc was transported down from Derbyshire to this area.
It created many transport firms some are still in existence today.
Just after the war thousands of ex WD Bedford QL, Canadian Dodge, GMC, lorries were being sold at auction at about £85.00 each and these were being bought and converted to tippers.
Hundreds of these lorries were ran day and night to your area and the Police actually provided escorts and kept the roads clear for this enormous operation.
In this area some of the same names are still seen. Sammy Longson who later became Chairman of Derby County in the 70s was one of these and had lorries numbered in there hundreds.
Just looked at this web site to refresh my memory and it may interest you David. home.freeuk.net/thefens/1947flood.htm
Some wonderful old photos and newspaper cuttings of the time.
And it was ice and snow which caused it...
alvin
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My Polo, albeit wrecked, was awful
I know someone with an N reg Golf Estate 1.9TD. In 3 months he has had to replace the steering rack, power steering pump, something else steering related, and his electrics are currently knackered. Maybe two unlucky cars but still.
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I've always wondered why Volkswagens became a byword for reliability. Was it:
a. VW's inspired "if only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen" campaign, or
b. Reality?
I suspect answer (a), but I don't know enough about their true reliability. Anyone in the trade like to tell us the facts? Are/were VWs reliable?
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Vin,
I think VW's reputation was built on the old air cooled Beetle. In an era where cars were far more unreliable than at present, they were streets ahead of the opposition.
There are 3 VWs in my family and several close friends have them. None of these have given problems.
However several recent surveys put VW well down the pecking order for reliability.
C
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Correct. What else could have successfully hauled thousands of hippies across the autobahns of Europe, the rough roads of Turkey, the trackless wastes of Iran and Afghanistan in temperatures ranging from well below zero to 50 C plus using an air-colled 1200 cc engine. I have seen these things go through sand dunes, negotiate snow-drifts, ford rivers and out Land Rover a Land Rover time after time with a few judicious shoves, a bit of sacking under the wheels, another joint all round and a lot of cursing, with nary a squeak. If there was trouble the grottiest Afghan or Iranian mud hut mechanic could fix it, because all the gastarbeiter in those days used to come from those parts and boughbt VW's to take home with their hard currency, so anyone could fix one. The VW Caravelle, as made c. mid-1950's to late 60's (the 1600's after that weren't nearly as good).
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My mother-in-law had a Golf GL F reg and it was a complete waste of space. All the electrics eventually packed up, the door trims were all loose and the roof lining came down on top of her head whilst she was on the M25 nearly causing a nasty accident. For a car that in eight years only covered 35,000 miles I found this quite appaling. A chap at work has a Golf V6 4-Motion and on 8,000 miles the gear box packed up so I don't have a lot of faith in VW's. Not all German cars are bad though as I have now covered 180,000 miles in my 2 mercs and have had no problems.
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dave18. I genuinely completely respect what you say. There are the odd ones that are excellent. I know they had awful trouble I think with engine management in the recent diesel Passats. There are letters in Which magazine etc!!
I have just been lucky: My first VW Variant 411L which I bought 2nd hand was a flop as I was cheated. The next car a VW Golf GLS ( 1.5cc and 4 speed manual)which I also bought 2nd hand was excellent. Then I had a VW Fox ( South African like the City Golf with a boot) turned out to be an excellent car ( extremely thinly made). It was a 1.6 with a 5 speed manual. ( Those were all the cars I had when I was working in South Africa). In 1999 I bought in England my present Seat Toledo TdiSE 1.9 110bhp. It has turned out to be a fantastic car.It has now done almost 150,000 miles. Many years ago , my father bought a 2nd or 3rd hand bottle green Polo 1.4. It had been in quite a bad accident, as the front bonnet is slightly too far back. It was made like a tank, such a solid car. After bringing it over from Dublin, it is still running beautifully with my in-laws in Harwich ( it still does trips to the north of Scotland ).
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Absolute shame what has happened to VW. When I bought my Seat Toledo near the end of 1999, the Toledo at that time was much more plush with more extras than the Skoda Octavia and it was much better value than the VW Bora at that time. In that year they all shared the same 1.9 110 bhp diesel. My Toledo came with pages of free extras. At that time they assembled the Toledo in the VW assembly place in Belgium. The Toledo was assembled in Spain some years later having orrigionally been in Spain. The Alhambra shared the Portuguese assembly with the Vw Sharon and the Ford Galaxy at that time. Funny how the assemblies are moved round. At that time in the UK,there were very few Seat dealers, but ones in the South West were often much grander and larger than the Skoda ones. The Skoda had quite a lot of small dealerships. Of course things have now changed, as Skoda sells like hot cakes. Since returning to Dublin, I have excellent service from an excellent main Seat dealer in a small premises.
When I was still working in South Africa, I was just about to buy a VW 1600 Fox ( the old square Jetta shape)in 1992(the South African City Golf with the large boot).At that time Ferdinand Piech was boss of VW worldwide. He turned up unannounced at the VW Eastern Cape assembly. He temporarily closed the assembly, because he thought they weren't assembling the then latest Golf correctly. They assembled again when things were right. That certainly showed leadership!!! He is back as the big boss once again.
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I thought Peugeot diesels were way out in front.
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Could it be that VW are trying to ring too much out of their small capacity engines and that everything is getting over-stressed? For example their 1.9 4-cyl diesel turbo is now upto 150bhp (and IIRC there was a 180bhp racing 1.9PD version)
SWMBO has a mk3 Golf 1.6cl and touch wood nothing has gone wrong since she has had it, save for the breaks needing tightening up.
I also think that VWs reputation came about because they offered a car that at the time was so much better than anything in its class. I suppose the BM-3 is a similar case. Now of course once the ground rules are re-written everyone else catches up PDQ.
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I suspect the rot set in around 1990. As I remember it, VW had let their component costs run out of control and were badly caught out by the recession and started losing money in large amounts. So while maintaining the perceived quality of their products (big solid doors, soft feel plastics) they cheapened the bits that customers couldn't see, especially electrical connectors. Looking under the bonnet of a Mk3 Golf, there's an awful lot of brittle plastic and wiring connectors that look as though they were looted from the Yugo factory. Quality control seemed to take a dive as well - a friend of mine bought a new Corrado in 1991, and after a month the gearchange mechanism fell to bits, which wasn't what anyone expected from a VW.
The great thing about the older VWs was the consistency of manufacture. Things go wrong with them, but they are almost always the same things (autochokes on 1.6/1.8 Golfs, cooling fan thermoswitches, hydraulic tappets). These 1980s cars are immensely durable compared to most other mass-market cars from the same era (compare and contrast: Mk2 Golf versus Mk3 Escort) and make great banger buys, but the rest of the world has closed the gap, and the next Golf will have to be a lot more special than the current model. We now take reliability for granted in any car, so it isn't really a unique selling point any more. Neither is rust resistant bodywork, thanks to galvanising. Even Fiats don't rust now.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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I think part of the answer lies with the improvements in other manufacturers particularly Ford. I don't like the Focus as a car, it's pig ugly but the build compared to those Escorts - different league.
However, back to VW. The Golf Mk 3 was a serious step backwards over the Mk 2 and I was always surprised that the writers & reviewers didn't give them more stick. The Mk 4 improved things again but possibly at the expense of the driving experience - they really are a long way short of the old Mk 2 8 valve - probably the best GTI ever.
No direct experience of Audi but they look better is that part of the problem? Does there have to be a differential in which case it's easier to cut costs on the VW?
Mercedes are certainly nothing like they were - that horrible 4x4 shopping trolly was appalling on early experience, plastic city and not even good plastic! Go to a dealer and look at the dash in an SLK, open the glove box, feel the plastic around the passenger air bag - cheap or what?
But where is the outcry among the motoring press? Could it be that enough freebies and track days help to blunt the pencil?
A Volvo or a Jag is much better appointed and usually for less - and no, I have never been a fan of Ford. Dagenham dustbins we used to call them but boy has there been a change. Now if they can bring anything like the same improvement to Land Rover, they'll clean up.
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Unless they sell Land Rover as part of their cost cutting exercises
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VW's these days appear to be not much better and not much worse than other brands, but they're certainly not as bullet-proof as people imagine: there do seem to be a lot of problems with the recent TDI engines - there have been many discussions here already about MAF sensor failures, and the questionable wisdom of wringing 150hp out of the 1.9 engine.
It seems to me that VW are still trading on the reputation they had 20-odd years ago, and reputations can last that long too - look how many people *still* believe Skodas are rubbish.
Personally, I'd rather have a Seat or a Skoda than a VW, and even Ford are producing great diesels these days, but that badge will keep propping up VW prices, I'm sure. Mercedes got away with it for years...
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I think there's a real problem these days, in that, well, they suck.
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Many fair points have been made above, with component sourcing from deviously cheap suppliers being a prime reason for "stupid" VAG failures, mainly electrical.
There is then good old VAG pig-headedness and stupidity. Water ingress is a prime example of this - if you design the plenum drains to be self-blocking and inaccessible on the old Passat and fit a lousy pollen filter seal a rainwater leak into the car is inevitable. Gravity is 100% reliable. Only VAG could put the icing on the cake and put a huge chunk of expensive elecronics on the floor.
There is the final issue of Seat/Skoda reliability being possibly better than VW/Audi. VAG documentation must be about the most confusing ever devised. The result was that even the dealers were putting the incorrect oil into PD diesels when they came out. The cambelt interval change lottery was another good example of self-induced confusion.
Seat and Skoda were at that time trading from tin sheds and many were family businesses. Traders of this kind were much more likely to take the trouble to "get it right" whereas the glass palace brigade simply handed cars over to the apprentice for an oil change.
I still like VAG vehicles and think the build standard is above average. They are now sophisticated vehicles, however, which don't take at all kindly to the activities of incompetent dealers. It will be very interesting to see if Seat/Skoda reliability takes a nose-dive to VW levels now that Milton Keynes has insisted that they start to trade from glass palaces rather than tin sheds.
659.
Edited by 659FBE on 01/11/2007 at 11:38
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VW ,Whats wrong
Amazing as discussion on this topic continues. It proves that even after five years that this thread was started, VW appear not to have leant anything.
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The finish and trim quality on a VW still impresses me, but buying a VW does not guarantee reliability.
My mk2 Golf was a corking car though.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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A customer of mine has a 98 Golf GTi with just 73k on the clock. Immaculate condition but my oh my is it unreliable.
She has spent, on average, over the last three years, atleast £100 a month on non servicing repairs ( over £3500 ).
Anything that could fail, does. Electrically, the car is a nightmare. She has a VW specialist work on it for her and they have a good rep, even they cannot understand it.
Its almost a running joke - last month the rear suspension collapsed - this month I got it outta the garage and the ABS warning light wouldnt go out. The ABS pump is only a few months old!
Wiper motors, all elec window motors, central locking, PAS pump, alternator, numerous fuel injection issues, rust in hard to reach places, the list just goes on and on.
The drivers door has dropped aswell. She has had every possible sensor you could imagine replaced, although as I said to her the other day, theres always another somewhere!
This was a car that on the face of it, is one of the better VWs of the 90's, but its a truelly shocking car for reliability. Infact downright shameful.
The worst part is, she bought it on the back of a great experience with a MK2 GTi - what a mistake that was - she said her MK2 was fantastic.
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I've had a new radiator and a control module replaced.Wiring loom in rear door was re-fitted.
Everything else has been service and fair wear and tear on tyres and brakes. No wheel bearings, suspension , steering joints, shock absorbers, clutch, sensors etc. , alternator or water pump placement in 105,000 miles. 1970's cars - no thanks.
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Quote: A customer of mine has a 98 Golf GTi with just 73k on the clock. Immaculate condition but my oh my is it unreliable.
98... I presume she got an early model MK4, rather than late model MK3? My private theory is you take more risks in buying a a model at the start of a new generation, than you are towards the end, when all mechanical and build issues that have affected early models have usually been refined and worked out. The DUU coded gearbox for one, using rivets, which I understand struggled with the weight/tolerances of the MKIV and could shear apart, often wrecking the gearbox, where later year ones used stronger bolts.
Our 5 year old Golf MK4 (just a basic 1.4S and admittedly not much milage on the clock with 40K) has been a pleasure to drive, with no problems of note, other than 2 x £30 coil packs (easy repair) causing misfire on two seperate occasions.
I read the Golf MK5 takes nearly twice as long to build as it's nearest competitors class equivilent, and there are plans to cut down the assembly times and reduce factory costs on the next MK6.* With such cost cutting changes planned I won't be rushing to buy an early model MK6, but would wait to hear how it works out for early buyers in the first 60K or first few years.
*Source: tinyurl.com/yo7o98
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A customer of mine has a 98 Golf GTi with just 73k on the clock.
Anything that could fail does. Electrically the car is a nightmare. She has a VW specialist work on it for her and they have a good rep even they cannot understand it.
rust in hard to reach places the list just goes on and on.
Has the car been owned from new Stu? Has it ever been HPId?
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For a moment I thought someone was using my identity. I've now got that feeling you get when you find an old car / motorbike magazine (have about 10 years of "Car Mechanics" stashed for moments of escapism).
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