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Who is in the wrong? - rogue-trooper
I see this happen so often but am not sure who is in the right/wrong.

London.

Cyclist going down inside of traffic (whether in a cycle lane or not) and faster than cars (ie effectively under taking everything). Car wants to turn left at junction and very often has not looked in mirrors at fast approaching cyclist. Result frequent near misses (fortunately not seen actual hits too often).

Personally I stop to let cyclist go for the two reasons:

i) they are more vulnerable
ii) they seem never to be prepared to stop to let the car go instead they jut give a lot of verbal. The verbal doesn't bother me but I don't want to be involved in an accident.

If I had a guess I would say cyclist was in the wrong, but.....

Edited by Pugugly {P} on 10/01/2008 at 16:37

who is in the wrong? - FotheringtonThomas
What are the indications?
who is in the wrong? - audi dave
the Highway Code says :

"On the left. When approaching a junction on the left, watch out for vehicles turning in front of you, out of or into the side road. Just before you turn, check for undertaking cyclists or motorcyclists. Do not ride on the inside of vehicles signalling or slowing down to turn left."

As a cyclist, I'd expect all vehicles to be indicating left if they're turning left and would not go down the inside if they were. If drivers turn left without indicating they're going against the guidance of the Highway Code and would be seen as at least mostly to blame in a courtroom.
who is in the wrong? - ForumNeedsModerating
As a cyclist, I'd expect all vehicles to be indicating left if they're turning left..

You expect? What if they don't - you may be in the 'right' but you're injured or worse.

Expect nothing, especially as a cyclist. When I cycled in cities & towns (in the sticks now, so don't so much ) I expected all other vehicles to disobey all traffic regulation & not see me - hence I'm still alive.

If a cyclist is daft enough to left-side overtake & expect perfection from motorised road users in observation - well... words fail me.
Who is in the wrong? - R75
As far as I am concerned it is the cyclist, if we had more road rules that were in line with yacht racing then it would make far more sense. Overtaking yacht gives way, could easily be overtaking vehicle gives way, very little ambiguity involved then.

On a similar line I was once taking a 40ft container to a road near the Barbican in London a few years ago, was waiting to turn right, indicators on, cab at an angle and vehicle positioned right on the centre lines, yet I still had one scooter and 2 push bikes overtake on the offside, yep actually overtook the side I was turning!!!!! And then they complain when they get hit!!!
Who is in the wrong? - Ruperts Trooper
Steam gives way to sail - so should motor vehicles give way to cyclists and pedestrians? Yachting rules are irrelevant, surely.
Who is in the wrong? - oilrag
That would mean cyclists giving way to pedestrians, even on the pavement ;)
Who is in the wrong? - Ruperts Trooper
That would mean cyclists giving way to pedestrians even on the pavement ;)

>>
And so they should.
Who is in the wrong? - Sofa Spud
I think both would be wrong. An undertaking cyclist and a careless left-turning motorist are about 50:50 to blame, I'd have thought.
Who is in the wrong? - Bromptonaut
I'd agree with the SS diagnosis of 50:50. Going down the nearside requires observation and some caution. If the left turner is a car you're likely to get away with a bang and a scrape. Far too many cyclists have met their maker down the nearside of an HGV.

Better on the whole to overtake like a vehicle and go offside.
Who is in the wrong? - cub leader
Better on the whole to overtake like a vehicle and go offside.

>>

Would have to ddisagree on that part Im afraid Bromptonaut, if you cycle own the off side you are in more danger from cars travelling in the opposite irection and motorbikes overtaking. Far safer to either not overtake or travel slowly own the inside watching out for vehicles moving off. Personally I would only be going up the inside at a slow pace when the other traffic was stationary.

Edited by cub leader on 10/01/2008 at 20:31

Who is in the wrong? - David Horn
Safest approach is to use the pavement of, if the road is fairly clear, the middle of the lane.
Who is in the wrong? - bathtub tom
Never undertake a moving vehicle while on a bike.
Never move up the inside of the first vehicle at traffic lights.
Never ignore traffic lights.
Never cycle on the footpath.

I'm a cyclist, and nearly sixty. I hope to make it!
Who is in the wrong? - Bromptonaut
Would have to ddisagree on that part Im afraid Bromptonaut if you cycle own the
off side ........


This one always generates healthy debate on cycling boards!!!.

My cycling is mostly urban/Inner London and on the roads I ride regularly conflicts with oncoming traffic are resolved by rejoining my own lane (just like any other vehicle). Same principle with other, faster, overtakers like motorbikes. If you behave like a vehicle you'll usually be treated like one.

I accept though that it requires a degree of confidence and experience not likely to be present in the novice commuter.
Who is in the wrong? - b308
Going back to the original post, surely there is a big difference between a cycle undertaking on a cycle lane and one that isn't?

If I am turning left across a cycle lane then I have to give way to traffic (cycles!) in that lane, just as I would if it were a bus lane, therefore if I hit a cyclist whilst turning I would be wholely at fault.

With no cycle lane then I agree with other posts, I have responsiblilty to check, but the cyclist also has responsibility to check - 50-50?

Edited by b308 on 11/01/2008 at 09:26

Who is in the wrong? - Cliff Pope
The HC seems a bit vague on the guidance to cyclists here. In the extract quoted, it warned against undertaking cars that were indicating left, so by implication it advises or at least condones left-lane undertaking.
But in general the HC only allows undertaking when in a "lane" of slow moving traffic that happens to be going faster than the outer lane.
But does a cyclist nipping up the inside foot of road constitute a "lane", so permitting undertaking? That would seem by implication to similarly permit a single car to switch to an inside lane in order to undertake, which elsewhere is condemned.

It all seems to hang on whether a cyclist in effect creates a personal narrow "lane" wherever he goes, with corresponding rights preventing others crossing into his lane, or is a cyclist just a bubble allowed by default to occupy a wider lane, but obliged to obey the general rules on lane discipline, no undertaking, etc.
Who is in the wrong? - colin-e
I can understand the term "undertaking cars", but how many coffins can an "undertaking cyclist" carry?

;-)
--
Colin-E
Who is in the wrong? - audi dave
Back to the Highway Code:

Rule 151:
In slow-moving traffic. You should

......be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side

So motorists should expect cyclists to be overtaking both on the inside and / or the outside and drive to avoid conflict with them.

Re. my previous post, as a cyclist I would be very careful in overtaking / undertaking other traffic near hazards.

HC Rule 167 is appicable for all vehicles re. overtaking:

DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example

approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road
where the road narrows
when approaching a school crossing patrol
between the kerb and a bus or tram when it is at a stop
where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works
when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down
at a level crossing
when a road user is indicating right, even if you believe the signal should have been cancelled. Do not take a risk; wait for the signal to be cancelled
stay behind if you are following a cyclist approaching a roundabout or junction, and you intend to turn left
when a tram is standing at a kerbside tram stop and there is no clearly marked passing lane for other traffic
Who is in the wrong? - Welliesorter
There's a fine line between a cyclist 'undertaking' and a motorist overtaking the cyclist and turning left in a single manoeuvre. I haven't cycled regularly for a few years, but I know which of these I found to be more common.
Who is in the wrong? - L'escargot
Cyclist going down inside of traffic (whether in a cycle lane or not) and faster than cars (ie effectively under taking everything).


I wouldn't like to say whether it was wrong or not, but it's certainly tempting providence to say the least. Sometimes prudence must take priority over right and wrong!
 

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