"ESP politically correct" : Usual HJ guff I'm afraid...
ESP is a far more valuable bit of equipment than the "lever to adjust the passenger seat backrest and a rotary knob for adjusting the drivers backrest" that he waxes lyrical about!
ESP is a life saver for the 98% of drivers who wouldn't know understeer if it slapped them in the face.
For the other 2% of drivers, it's limitations can easily be overcome - but that doesn't make it a waste of space - it just means that it can't defy the laws of physics (what did you expect Altea - a miracle???)
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For most of the time ESP/DSC is never needed. And then one day it can make a lot of difference.
At the moment it seems to be an item to distinguish higher spec cars but I think I am right in saying that today's cars have all/most of the sensors to implement it at very little (or no) cost. And it looks like the EU will force it to be standard on cars soon - a good thing?
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I've a feeling DSC is standard equipment on BMWs. I only say this as I have a pretty low spec ES model which has it.
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You probably only need ESP a couple of times in 100,000 miles of motoring. But it then may well have saved your life.
Do a search and browse on youtube for Bosch ESP for some illuminating videos. There is a good one with Tiff Needel. One institute is saying that ESP is the most important safety measure since seatbelts.
For real life comparison, watch a few CCTV clips of real highway accidents to see how many fatalities occur with a loss of control that ESP would prevent.
Watch half a dozen videos from different sources, listen to the experts and then tell me ESP is not a significant safety feature.
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I October I had a new Impreza rental car in Japan - fitted with switchable ESP (I don't think its available on UK-market cars). I was quite impressed with the system, and coupled with AWD the lever of grip and security was remarkable. On curving country roads you felt a lot more stable with it switched on, than with it off.
ESP, like ABS, is most useful in helping out during unanticipated situations - e.g. driving late at night, feeling a bit tired, kids in the back and you catch a patch of spilt Diesel on a corner of an unfamiliar road, car coming towards you etc etc - that's when its worth its weight in gold.
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EU are looking into making ESP a requirement on new HGVs and coaches etc. Estimated it may save 500 lives a year. preview.tinyurl.com/2yvd9t
Edited by nortones2 on 30/11/2007 at 13:32
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I imagine ESP in this context is some sort of electronic stability control perhaps operating through the brakes and differential or differentials, but what do the letters stand for, and what is it basically?
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Lud. The best explanation I've come across is given in the Canadian site: preview.tinyurl.com/226nso They've decided to use ESC rather than all the other terms.
As to effectiveness: "ESC could have prevented approximately 30% of the crashes that involved loss of control, if all vehicles in Canada had been equipped with ESC."
In a report for the IAM on rural roads, it was found a significant number of injuries were caused by loss of control, 40% of the total.
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Thank you nortones. It is much as I thought. Been around for a while on Porsche Cayennes and the like.
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>>(I don't think its available on UK-market cars).
I think the new STi due out in the spring has it.
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Do a search and browse on youtube for Bosch ESP for some illuminating videos. There is a good one with Tiff Needel. One institute is saying that ESP is the most important safety measure since seatbelts.
Its not
For real life comparison watch a few CCTV clips of real highway accidents to see how many fatalities occur with a loss of control that ESP would prevent.
I have, a very small percentage in the scheme of all accidents.
Watch half a dozen videos from different sources listen to the experts and then tell me ESP is not a significant safety feature.
Its not significant.
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< Ulla>
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just like disc brakes,power steering, fatter tyres anti lock braking etc etc
you give the classes esp and they drive quicker
how many times have i heard a woman say to me i had an accident but the brakes were faulty on my car because the wheels skidded? loads
esp does work though and is indeed most helpful in somehing like an aquaplane situation
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Once again, Altea appears to think he knows better than everyone else!...
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well lets face, knowing more than you aint hard
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< Ulla>
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Aren't we missing the point here? Instead of fixing people's bad driving with electronics we should be making the driving test harder and being more selective about who we give licenses to. Basic skid control, such as how to deal with understeer and oversteer, and the effect of control inputs mid-corner on the balance and behaviour of a car should be part of the driving test.
I firmly believe that driver aids are abused and become relied upon. I remember being passenger in a late 90's Mercedes C230K Sport belonging to a work colleague who decided to show off his new toy. It was raining hard, and the yellow stability program light on the dash was almost constantly on. The guy didn't seem to know or care that it was only electronics keeping him away from a very nasty accident. A couple of times, the electronics were a little slow on the uptake and the car "wiggled", but he made no correction on the steering whatsoever - I don't think he even noticed. Without ESP he wouldn't have made it to the end of his street.
In this case, the gadgetry was not making anything safer. It was just postponing the inevitable. Which I'm told came four months later writing off the car and thankfully only property rather than people.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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For motoring journo's or other professional drivers, ESP is possibly not needed (by why is then fitted to F1 cars?)
For mere mortals it is needed more. I have driven on test tracks with and without ESP, and it does make a difference in simulated emergency manouvres. It has also saved my neck on the M25 when some bozo decided that my car was not there (emergency lane changing at 70mph under heavy breaking is not for the faint hearted, even with ABS/ESP).
Joe
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"Politically correct", in the broad sense of the term, means "what is seen as correct by the political classes".
And in our current day, safety is a very big priority for our political leaders - hence all the new "health and safety" regulations in recent years, the desire to eliminate virtually all risk from life, the desire to improve road accident statistics, the desire after every big accident to make sure that it never happens again, and so on.
In that sense, ESP is undeniably a politically correct extra.
(I may not be the world's most politically correct individual, but I am in favour of ESP in cars.)
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"and in our current day" is a view which reflects the myopia of people who have no recollection of events. Sir, in contradiction to this view, I cite the Factory Act 1833.
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"Politically correct" in the broad sense of the term means "what is seen as correct by the political classes".
At long last I've seen an explanation of the expression. Up until now I really didn't know what it meant.
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I'd far rather have it than not, my old boss at Ford got to go to Germany when the Focus MK2 was aunched, they did a demo of ESP there and he said that it was clearly the most effective safety gadget on the car. From what I recall they drove over a wet metal plate that suddenly shifted causing the car to lose control, without ESP each and every driver lost it big style and slid backwards, with ESP engaged, he claims the car just lurched a little and then carried on along it's way. I think the way that the plate moved was supposed to simulate a blow out or something like that.
My last 3 series had it and I thought it seemed pretty good, despite been the older version, I only ever switched it off if I needed to do a U-turn on a wide empty road, it seemed to get in the way of my chosen method to complete the manouvere. ;-)
Blue
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After making ABS compulsory the EC is considering making ESP obligatory too. (One more thing to go wrong and write a car off at 7 - 10 years old.).
Fair point that explains the "PC" comment. I guess it would be OK as long as non-working ESP doesn't constitute an MOT failure - but presumably it will be treated like ABS, whereby the check light has to come on and go off properly?
Regardless of legislation though, it's clear that ESP/ESC/DSC/VSA will soon be fitted to almost all new cars - higher spec buyers will demand it, and as the marginal cost of fitting it when ABS is already there is probably sub-$100 already, it will rapidly become de rigeur on all but the most basic cars.
I'd be interested if one of our motor industry contributors could bring us up to date on ESC developments - the makers are poor at explaining in their marketing material just what they are selling (it was clear that the VSA explanation in the Honda brochure I had was written by someone who didn't understand it properly). Trailer Stability Control (TSC) has now appeared - does this involve additional sensors?
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