In other words, franchise dealers can still make a profit when selling to 'wholesale' 3rd party re-sellers - so why can't they compete with the 3rd parties in the first place, who have to add their profit margin as well!
The elephant in the room question: Why can't the dealers sell to the public at those prices in the first place?
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Pretty sorry state of affairs IMHO. Seems that it probably is legal thanks to Block Exemption. Obviously it would not be legal in the case of most other goods on the market - the sooner cars are treated like any other product, the better. Let's have a proper open market, rather than it all be rigged. It would be nice to think that the comments of the BMW spokesman get wide coverage so that the general car-buying public understand what is going on - this is important because the new round of Block Exemption negotiations will start soon.
The whole car market is really bizarre. For example you can order UK-spec Subaru's (and other brands, like Honda) in Malta & cyprus for something up to a 25% discount on UK prices (say £5k off). Subaru Japan build the cars to UK-spec and ship them to Malta, presumably in the full knowledge that they will then be shipped to UK to compete with the 'official' importer. Subaru is the best selling new car brand in Malta - but go there and you don't see that many driving around the island! Pity that the UK consumer has to go through all of this to get a car at the 'open market' price.
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Obviously it would not be legal in the case of most other goods on the market
Didn't Levy Jeans Co. and/or some expensive perfume company take this question to court and prove that they are entitled to control the prices and outlets where their goods are sold?
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The whole car market is really bizarre. For example you can order UK-spec Subaru's (and other brands like Honda) in Malta & cyprus for something up to a 25% discount on UK prices (say £5k off). Subaru Japan build the cars to UK-spec and ship them to Malta presumably in the full knowledge that they will then be shipped to UK to compete with the 'official' importer.
Presumeably Subaru Japan are happy as they're shifting cars, and the UK Importer is happy as they're making a good margin on the cars they do sell.
You've only got to look at BMW & Mercedes (etc) pricing in the US to feel that we're being ripped off. The current exchange rates make it look worse, but it's long been the case that the cars are a lot cheaper there, and for much higher spec versions too - their entry level 3 series is the 6cyl 328i and it's still cheaper than 318i here.
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Presumeably Subaru Japan are happy as they're shifting cars and the UK Importer is happy as they're making a good margin on the cars they do sell.
Don't know about that! The dealers really struggle to compete and Subaru was rated 'bottom franchise' in the recent NFDA survey. The dealers sure ain't happy with this situation.
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The dealers sure ain't happy with this situation.
Yes, but show me a supplier who cares about their dealers!
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Why can't the dealers sell to the public at those prices in the first place?
..because they choose not to.
Generally, for a given amount of total profit, it's better to sell a small number of things at high profit margin than a large number of things at a low profit margin.
If you start off with high prices then you have some control over your business - you can choose which deals to go after and which ones to walk away from. If your pricing is pitched at near cost, then there's nowhere to go.
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Levi Jeans court case www.out-law.com/page-2814
UK supermarket giant Tesco has lost its four-year legal battle for the right to sell cut price Levi jeans ....
perfume case www.jenkins-ip.com/mym/spring2002/mym_2002_10.htm
The French company, Zino Davidoff, sells a range of luxury fragrance
Edited by jbif on 21/11/2007 at 14:10
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Levi Jeans court case www.out-law.com/page-2814 UK supermarket giant Tesco has lost its four-year legal battle for the right to sell cut price Levi jeans ....
I think the Tesco/Levi case is rather different. The clothes were sourced outside the EU and there were trademark issues.
In the case of BMW cars the vehicles are UK-spec cars being sold by franchised UK dealers. Its an issue of who the purchaser is. Surely for most retail products the seller can sell to whoever they want, without needing the manufacturers approval of the buyer.
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I think the Tesco/Levi case is rather different
To quote from the perfumes case referenced above, the writer states:
"This case raises one of the most fundamental trade mark questions, namely should a brand owner be allowed to use trade mark law to dictate the way in which his products are sold and the price at which those products are made available to the public? In the writer's view, the answer should be yes. The sale of Chanel No. 5 perfume or Hermes scarves at a knock down price, alongside fruit, vegetables and soap powder, in a UK supermarket is bound to affect the cachet and allure of those brands and therefore the value of those brands to the trade mark owner adversely. Such trade mark owners should be free to choose their own exclusive network of distributors. This does not prevent consumers from buying perfumes or scarves at lower prices, they simply have to choose alternative, cheaper products."
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jbif
BMW IS choosing "their own exclusive network of distributors". That's not the issue. The issue is one of them controlling WHO the official dealership sells the product to; i.e. BMW (UK) are saying (on pain of losing franchise) that they have to approve of the purchaser. That's a totally different issue.
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MOst mainstream BMW models are sold as company cars. This means they are leased.the leasing business model works on buying the cars as cheaply as possible, with most of the profit coming from sale of car at lease end.
This means that to keep leasing companies happy, they need to keep resiudal values high. So mainstream BMW's get sold cheaply (well with manufacturer support anyway) into the lease market but Sales to general public need to be kept at or near list price, so that second hand values remain high.
If BMW just had the general public to sell to, sales would slip by two thirds overnight, and prices would plummet.
BMW is desperatley trying to protect a failing market model,
------
< Ulla>
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I agree Altea Ego, that sums it up.
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The last two posts have it spot on. Go to any lease disposal auction and it will chock full of BMW's of all types - there will almost certainly be more BMW's than Fords or Vauxhalls.
BMW are playing the high volume fleet game and simultanously thinking they can still play the low volume premium game with their dealers. It hasn't worked for anyone else so I fail to see why BMW are different.
Before pressuring their dealers BMW UK ought to get their own house in order and stop offering massive discounts to get their cars onto fleets and their volumes up. They won't, of course, because BMW as a whole are trying to increase their annual sales to 1.5m and up.
They want to have their cake and eat and to be honest in the car world that is a very difficult thing to do.
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If it's not permitted how do BMW systems allow dealers to order cars for unnamed end users - or are there lots of Mr Joe Bloggs buying BMWs?
I know when I bought both my Audis I was advised I could get a call from Audi HQ to confirm who I was and that I had actually ordered a car through the dealer. I never received such a call.
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I have some 'contacts' at BMW - more than a few actually. The UK dealers are under a lot of pressure on targets. The weak dollar and credit crunch is affecting the US market and the German market is down a bit. The cars have to go somewhere - and that 'somewhere' includes the UK (as well as Russia, China etc., which are growing). Many UK dealers have what they feel are unrealistic targets and so are tempted to sell to brokers to meet target. They also have to take a mix of models - i.e. for every easy-to-sell 330Ci they might have to take a hard-to-sell 1-series hatch. Really they are between a rock and a hard place and this directive will only make things tougher for them. Less pressure on volume from the German HQ and all the problems would go away.
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Aprillia - The MD of MB Cars agrees with you.
The following is from an article in AM:
Mercedes-Benz UK is ?trying to resist the market pressures that are turning prestige into volume?, according to director of passenger cars Dermot Kelly.
Considering Mercedes could, with some justification, be accused of spearheading the drive for volume along with BMW with the launch of the A-Class and subsequent fleet deals, Kelly?s statement might raise some eyebrows. In the early part of the decade, both carmakers were neck-and-neck as they flirted with the top 10 best sellers.
BMW has become a top 10 regular, but Mercedes has taken a step back from its heavy handed approach to sales which saw a retailer backlash in the two main dealer attitude surveys from Sewells and the NFDA.
Kelly blames the ?vortex of discounts? at his rivals for putting margins under pressure this year and says dealers must resist the temptation to compete on price.
?Retailers have to sell the service and the brand. It?s about the showrooms and the way we do business which gives the perceived value for the customer,? he said.
The network is being helped by the lower demand placed on the UK by the German head office, contrary to some reports.
?Mercedes is sold in more countries than other prestige brands and they can take the volumes. China and Russia can?t get enough cars so we can get the right balance.
?We hedge our currency so we have not pulled away from the US market. Others have and with the German market down, their cars have to go somewhere ? and that?s the UK,? said Kelly.
In other words, while Mercedes? German rivals are forced to flood the UK with cars to offset falling sales in Germany and elsewhere, Kelly claims that Mercedes is able to divide its production output across a broader spread of markets.
The retail network investment is nearing completion. Just a handful of sites still need to be updated; 126 of the 156 dealerships are new builds with the rest undergoing refurbishment.
Around £500m has been spent by retailers on refurbishments ? Mercedes? investment in its own sites in London, Manchester and Birmingham is thought to exceed £100m, including an industry- estimated £40m in Mercedes-Benz World at Brooklands ?while a further £500m has been spent on acquisitions to form the market areas.
Additional investment required this year includes new point of sale boards which hold publicity brochures and photos. The light-wood partitions separate different models; the AMG section is differentiated by darker colour wood panels.
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Aprillia - The MD of MB Cars agrees with you.
That will be interesting to see!
I love the way they talk about £1BN of investment and then say they've also bought some new point-of-sale boards!
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I love the way they talk about £1BN of investment and then say they've also bought some new point-of-sale boards!
Better still the £1bn of investment has not been made by MB but by their dealers under MB's instruction.
However, the point-of-sale boards might have been free. Dermot's a really generous man....
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When I 'bought' my current Picasso through Drivethe deal (2 yrs ago) at a very discounted price the whole purchase was conducted through a Citroen dealer and I paid the dealer directly for everything except the £100? deposit. The dealer than regarded me as the puchaser. Surely this sort of arrangement would be acceptable to BMW and still allow the 'broker' to act as an intermediary and allow the dealer to sell at whatever discounted price was agreed.
Am I missing something? Do some brokers actually buy in bulk upfront to secure their discounts, is the promise of continuous business not sufficient for some main agents?
--
pmh (was peter)
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When I 'bought' my current Picasso through Drivethe deal (2 yrs ago) at a very discounted price the whole purchase was conducted through a Citroen dealer and I paid the dealer directly for everything except the £100? deposit. The dealer than regarded me as the puchaser. Surely this sort of arrangement would be acceptable to BMW and still allow the 'broker' to act as an intermediary and allow the dealer to sell at whatever discounted price was agreed. Am I missing something?
This is exactly the sort of thing BMW are trying to stop. The broker probably got the cars on fleet terms and was then acting as a 'reseller' to you. Manufacturers don't like this sort of thing - hence the broker often having to retain the V5c to provide an 'audit trail' should the manufacturer later come back to check up on the deal.
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I'm sure the broker I bought via did indeed get fleet terms, but the entire transaction was done directly with a franchised Honda Dealer. No cash went to the broker from me, and both sides were quite open that the dealer paid the broker a finder's fee.
I bought direct from Honda, the V5 was in my name, and finance was arranged through Bank of Scotland. Where's the problem?
Of course if it came to the dealer having to explain the great deal they'd given me...
Edited by Gordon M on 21/11/2007 at 19:11
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Gordon M
This is no problem for you. But Honda (UK) would not like the fact that the dealer sold to a retail customer on 'fleet' terms. The broker is acting as a bogus 'fleet' customer, effectively consolidating retails orders into one fleet order. The name on the V5c and how the payment was made are irrelevant.
BTW- did you look at Bob Gerard (imports)? - currently doing '57 Accord S Autos for £13600 - not bad at all.
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Any salesperson can sell against "grey imports" saing say £4,000 with the old FUD principles - Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt.
What the salesman cannot easily sell against is the same car sold by another BMW dealer and delivered on a trailer to the door @ £4,000 less. Local dealer carries some weight - may be a few hundred pounds but certainly not £4,000.
With brokers setting the bar £4,000 lower there is some really big problems for BMW and "holding the street price" for new cars and "the inflated 2nd hand prices" for their nearly new cars in the showroom.
All volume sellers, Ford & Vauxhall especially, have had the problem for years due to fleet discounts and daily hire cars coming on to the 2nd hand market at 6 mths old - and neither Ford or Vauxhall have the answer
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If a dealer can sell via a broker to a private seller for £4000 off that means that is what BMW is allowing dealers to flog them at to fleet and lease buyers.
They appear to want to stop the former but appear to have no plans or wish to stop the latter.
The market is becoming increasingly flooded with used 3-4 year old BMW's because of the massive amount of ex-lease stuff going through the auctions. Most BMW's now go for well under book at auctions (and the book price is nothing special in residual terms) and any models without the right options and spec are almost unsaleable.
A 2004 BMW 320d SE without leather is today's equivalent of a non-metallic dark blue Mondeo 1.8 LX of a few years back. BMW are also doing the rental game as well with a lot of 6-12 month old BMW's hanging around the auction halls.
If BMW wish to maintain their used prices which underpin their image and their PCP payment levels then they need to keep very close control of this. It is BMW UK themselves who are in danger of killing the golden goose, not the odd sale of a discounted car to a canny internet buyer.
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Sounds to me BMW are a bit rattled. I suspect they are worried that the UK consumer will be cash strapped over the next few years as in the USA.
There is of course another solution. Hit them where it hurts by buying another make. If you must have RWD, Lexus seems an obvious choice and you might just end up with a better car as well.
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The market is becoming increasingly flooded with used 3-4 year old BMW's because of the massive amount of ex-lease stuff going through the auctions. Most BMW's now go for well under book at auctions (and the book price is nothing special in residual terms) and any models without the right options and spec are almost unsaleable.
The prices of used BMW's have baffled me for years - the average dealer has scores, if not a hundred, 3 Series sitting on their forecourt at prices that generally seem ridiculous - there surely can't be *that* much demand for them?
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What's the issue?
Although I didn't buy a new car in the end, most of the discount brokers I looked at had arrangements where the car would be purchased directly from the dealer found by the broker - ie in accordance with BMW rules.
In a free market economy, supply & demand should dictate prices - BMW are continuing to attempt to maintain their prices way above that level.
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im still wanting to find the big hole where all the old MINIS are kept ive nearly swept the whole country now on google earth but so far been thwarted in my quest ,but think on thiis how many older registration MINIS do you actually see on the road in comparison to newer registrations?
keeps me awake at night this does
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Most of them have just rusted away. I remember in 1994 a brand new Mini would cost £6000, the same price as a mid spec Lada Samara or FSO. Because they were budget cars many were simply scrapped a ssoon as the dreaded subframe started to rust but 10 years laterthe original mini is considered very cool and bet those people regret scraping them now!
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It is rather a shame that the BMW image has been killed over the years by the fact that you cant move in Tesco's carpark for the crappy 4 pot 1 and 3 Series.
Kinda overshadows the fact that at the other end of the market BMW make some staggeringly good cars.
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As a driver of a "crappy 4 pot 1 series" I've wondered about the dislike of some other drivers to the BMW marque. However reading this I think I understand now...........
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When I was looking for a new car I was looking for a deal - a healthy % off list.
One Franchise the salesman said "we are only allowed to give 5% on this type of car by the Manuafcturer.
Instead of contesting it "I asked for this in statement in writing" as this would be against EU law and amount to Price Fixing by a manufacturer.
The S'man then backed down and I left....I bought another make.
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I agree with Altea Ego and others. BMW want to have their cake and eat it.
BMW GB have had it pretty good since Labour came to power. Company car drivers were one of Gordon Brown's first targets in terms of punitive taxation, and BMW (among others) have done rather nicely out of the resulting explosion in car allowances and "cash for car" schemes. Suddenly all those people who were stuck with a default company supplied Ford or Vauxhall had the ability to go out and leased entry level 3 series, taking full advantage of the low monthly lease costs enabled by high residual values.
Fast forward a decade, and this has had a dramatic increase in the supply of used BMWs, putting downward pressure on values, and therefore upward pressure on lease costs. BMW want the increased new sales (through the "fleets" without the unpalatable consequences of lower values on the used market. It can't happen. Not only are they fighting the basic laws of economics, but stopping the odd internet buyer won't even make a dent in the problem. Brand image is part of the residual value of a BMW of course, but the extra demand this generates is trifling compared to the increasing oversupply of the things on the used market. They have themselves to blame for the problem, and only themselves.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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Suddenly all those people who were stuck with a default company supplied Ford or Vauxhall had the ability to go out and leased entry level 3 series taking full advantage of the low monthly lease costs enabled by high residual values.
I wonder if that's really what's happened?
I used to work for a company where the base level car was BMW 318i (we switched from top of the range 406 / Mondeo etc when it became apparent we could lease the BMWs for the same) and more senior people could have 325i. They could choose other similar cars, but most had BMWs.
We were given a good deal to opt out and out of perhaps 100 company drivers pretty well everyone opted out but literally only a couple bought/leased new BMW's. The vast majority, having for years insisted they had to have BMWs, procured much cheaper cars - Peugeot 307s and Astras were quite popular choices - and put the money saved into their back pockets.
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I had a new 318i as a loan car for a week. Must say that it was not the nicest place in the world to be.
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When we went looking for our Aygo the Toyota salesman did show me such a document, which showed a max discount of £250 a car. Obviously it could have been an internal excel spreadsheet print, but he made it out to be a Toyota HQ policy.
Needless to say drive the deal secured a much healthier discount.
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Buying a 4 cylinder 1 Series is an admission you crave image. A similarly priced Ford Focus or VW Golf would be of much greater specification, be far more practical and infact better in nearly every way other than that badge on the bonnet.
If there was ever a car designed from the ground up for a badge snob the BMW 1 Series is surely it.
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that's just not true.
I am not a great fan of FWD cars so the Focus and Golf that you mention are very different from the 1 series.
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I've driven pretty much the entire 1 Series range and with the exception of the 120d none of them have enough power to make the RWD/FWD thing any more than slightly noticeable. It's a compromise in a car of this size - you buy a dull hatchback becuase you want something practical. A 1 Series is not.
Actually the more I think about it perhaps the 1 Series was designed to be a BMW Dealer courtesy car. Every time I see a 1er on a 57 or 07 plate I wonder what BMW the driver is having repaired today ;)
Edited by MichaelR on 22/11/2007 at 12:14
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MichaelR wrote"If there was ever a car designed from the ground up for a badge snob the BMW 1 Series is surely it."
Sorry but that's wrong..
It should read..
"If there was ever a car designed from the ground up for a badge snob the BMW is surely it."
RWD and 25% overpriced and HORRIBLE in snow..
No thanks... they should be discounted 25% imo.
madf
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Sorry but that's wrong.. It should read.. "If there was ever a car designed from the ground up for a badge snob the BMW is surely it."
Well no, the better models are absolutely fantastic cars - good job, because I'd never bother with the marque otherwise becuase the image problems are pretty annoying.
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RWD and snow - yes but then a set of chains is a) not expensive and b) not very big to keep in the car (along with my shovel!). Anyway, snow = winter = change from summer tyres to winter tyres.
25% overpriced - wasn't there a post where someone had bought a 1 series because they had specced a Golf to the same level and the Golf was more expensive? Personally wouldn't know about it as not looking too closely at that segment of the car market and i don't buy brand new.
My mother has a 120d (mainly bought because of the auto option) and she and I are of the same opinion and that it is not a very nice car to drive. It goes well but that's about it.
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yes of course that was it ... This was a company car so it was also a decision about lease rates (very very attractive at the launch when I signed up) CO2 emissions/BiK which were good on the BMW 120d in 2004 especially considering the uprated power/torque output of the engine when compared to the Ford/VW offerings.
Guess what i had a Golf before and for some reason didnt want another and didnt particularly want a Focus (I dont need acres of space inside).
So tell me, bearing in mind that the Golf Gti was not out at the time and I wouldnt want a Focus ST ( 40 mpg in your dreams) what is so wrong with wanting this 'crappy' 4 pot.
I like the size of the car, the roadholding and rwd characteristics make me grin still after 3 years and I'm absolutely gutted its going back next week, I still love driving it - never been able to say that before.
I'm really pleased you like your 5 series, live and let live, I wish I could have afforded something like this when I was a student. I'm sure its a brilliant car, but I dont want one but I certainly wont be rude about anybody who does.
PS
I could probably make a similar argument about a Mondeo v a 5 series (but of course you had one of these as well didnt you ! )
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Pezzer, don't worry about it, it always gets back to this.
There are people who have nothing better to do than worry themselves about people driving BMWs. They will tell you to buy Fords and that you're just paying for the badge.
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Given that this thread has moved onto to discussion of various reasons behind the devaluing of the BMW brand, I think I am as entitled to my opinion about the 1 Series as you are. A well specified BMW 120d is in excess of £20,000.
Frankly, this is an obsecene amount of money for a small hatchback. Not long ago you could buy a Mondeo ST220 for less, to give you an example of the value the 1 Series does not represent.
Whilst it has its plus points - the chassis is fantastic and it is a sharp handling car - it's negative points far outweigh this. The space in the back is very flawed becuase of the RWD configuration, the boot is small, and the build quality is rather mismatched in areas - some of it is to BMW standards yet other parts make you wonder if you've accidently climbed into the back of a Vauxhall Astra. And, as previously mentioned, the value is exceptionally poor.
Amusingly it is possible to specify a BMW 116i base to £30,000 OTR using the options list. Just.. wow.
I could mention the styling but won't as this is a purely subjective thing.
Now, I'm sorry about the 4 pot thing but really, most people who want 'a bmw' rush out and buy a 116i or a 318i without any real consideration for anything but the badge. This is primarily why there are so many of the things out there now and why BMW are experiencing the oversupply issues they are having.
You will, however, note I singled out the 120d earlier as an exception.
Edited by MichaelR on 22/11/2007 at 14:40
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Given that this thread has moved onto to discussion of various reasons
How did that happen? ;-)
Frankly, this is an obsecene amount of money for a small hatchback I could mention the styling Now, I'm sorry about the 4 pot thing but really, most people who want 'a bmw' rush out and buy a 116i or a 318i without any real consideration for anything but the badge.
Did you know the biggest selling new 5 series is a 4 pot diesel?
I don't drive a 1 series as I do not want any hatchback. I did test drive it at a BMW event and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
In my view, it matters not a jot what other people think. But if it matters to you, I think you have a right to have your views about the 1 series and 4 pot engines, and state them in this forum over and over again at every opportunity, however wrong you may be. ;-)
Edited by jbif on 22/11/2007 at 14:55
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Did you know the biggest selling new 5 series is a 4 pot diesel?
Yes, I'm aware of this. This is also a shame - good as though BMW's 2.0d engine is, I don't think it suits the character of the 5 Series. It's also fair to say it's main reason for popularity is not its technical prowess but its ease of compatability with company car tax rules.
In my view it matters not a jot what other people think. But if it matters to you I think you have a right to have your views about the 1 series and 4 pot engines and state them in this forum over and over again at every opportunity however wrong you may be. ;-)
Thats kinda the point in Motoring fourms :)
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>>t is possible to specify a BMW 116i base to £30,000 OTR using the options list. Just.. wow.
Blimey!!! But no-one would, would they?
Whilst it has its plus points - the chassis is fantastic and it is a sharp handling car - it's negative points far outweigh this. The space in the back is very flawed becuase of the RWD configuration, the boot is small
Fantastic chassis, tight rear space due to RWD, small boot - what car can you be talking about? Porsche 911, Ferrari, Lambo, Jag XK, MX5 etc
If you don't need to carry sprogs around then there is little point having much of a back and some really don't want to (or can afford to) have any of the other RWD cars mentioned above
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You will however note I singled out the 120d earlier as an exception.
Would the 130i also qualify? :-)
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Buying a 4 cylinder 1 Series is an admission you crave image.
What if you want to drive rear wheel drive car? how many options have you got?
Would you extend your argument, to someone buying a 4 cylinder 3 series, and say that they also 'crave image'?
I suspec that you have never ever driven a BMW with 4 cylinder valvetronic engines?
I will stick out my neck to say that the driving experience of a E46 320i is not as interesting as a 318i, of similar vintage. The four cylinder car is a lot lighter, and a lot more nimble. It's handling is a lot 'sweeter'.
325i and 330i are a different story altogether.
Edited by CJay{P} on 22/11/2007 at 17:15
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>> Buying a 4 cylinder 1 Series is an admission you crave image. What if you want to drive rear wheel drive car? how many options have you got?
If you particularly WANT a rear wheel drive car, there is a very high chance that to you a car is not simply a method of getting from A to B. You probably enjoy driving. Thus, why would you be happy with a 116i or a 118i? You wouldn't, would you? Have you driven a 116i lately? I had the misfortune to be lumbered with one for a week. It was a terrible car - the engine made the glorious chassis absolutely pointless and filled me with frustration every time I drove it. I even put off a trip to Hampshire becuase I just couldn't be bothered with the tedium of taking it on a journey of any length.
Why do people buy it?
Would you extend your argument to someone buying a 4 cylinder 3 series and say that they also 'crave image'?
To a lesser extent, as it's more expensive, yes.
I suspec that you have never ever driven a BMW with 4 cylinder valvetronic engines?
You suspect wrong. I have put 1500 miles from new onto an E90 320i with 4 cylinder Valvetronic engine (Great car ruined by poor specification and, suprise suprise, underpowered powerplant - it had 150bhp but I've no idea what sort of horses, perhaps they were donkeys?), and I've also had pretty much the entire 1 Series range as courtesy vehicles at some point or another.
Then I had a 325d for a day. An infinately better proposition and a great car.
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Then I had a 325d for a day. An infinately better proposition and a great car.
I think there may be shortly be a demise in the sales of larger engined cars:
tinyurl.com/3d7dq7 (some caution recommended).
Edited by Bill Payer on 23/11/2007 at 10:00
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