Motaquip are part of the PSA Peugeot / Citroen group
Bosch, NGK, Brembo, Ferodo parts all get my vote for quality.
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From my investigations into oil filters, I know for a fact that one manufacturer produces filters for an OEM, and that same manufacturer also produces filters for a non-OEM brand that sells them as OE filters. But the filters are not the same.
So just because company X makes a filter for say Ford, if you buy a filter from the same company for a Ford, it will not be the same.
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Would love to know this company. really cant believe that a manufacturer will produce 2 different parts for 1 application where they could be the same.
With a lot of exceptions I know, a lot of oil filters are the same apart from physical size and thread size ! generalise I know but I do have information to back that up !
With help of technical department of certain filter manufacturers it is possibel to fit different size filter to that specified ( for unusual needs ) !
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>>I would like to know who makes genuine filters etc. Short of buying all the available filters, and cutting them open, I think you will struggle to find out - unless someone at an OEM has a Ratner moment, no-one will spill the beans.
A previous thread did spill the beans on filter makers.
IIRC even a letter from Halfords re their suppliers.
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It really isn't worth trying to save a few pence on low value items like filters.
Independent specialists in a particular brand can often supply genuine OE parts from elsewhere in Europe which are substantially cheaper than franchise dealer's parts department.
I can recommend AutoVaux for parts for Vauxhalls, I'm sure there are equivalent suppliers for other marques.
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saving a few pence (or often pounds) is useful when you fit maybe 20 filters a week or so.
Price difference carried across to customers is generally welcomed too.
More savings can be made on air filters and fuel filters generally than oil filters but its quite possible to save over £10 or more on 1 car!
From a trade p[oint of view, motor factors supply a lot of fliters because of the convenience too. If I was to obtain "genuine" parts for every vehcicle it would add up to an hours labour time per vehicle too plus the cost of dearer filters. Somebody has to pay for the time it takes to go and get these parts because dealers dont deliver as conveniently.
Applies to other parts too.
If you are only buying for 1 car on an occasional basis and are not comfortable with other brands there is nothing wrong with using dealers.
A classic part is a wheel bearing kit. only made by 2 or 3 companies in the world who ever has the badge on the box ! Very rare to find a dealer cheap on 1 of them.
the list can go on and on !
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I usually buy filters from VW Dealer, they were made by HENGST except for the pollen filter which was Micronair. Recently I went to Eurocarparts and bought a few of each filter, they sell a choice of makes, so I specified HENGST. When I came to replace the pollen filter, I removed the VW/Micronair one and tried to fit the HENGST one and found it was of such poor quality to be useless, as there was no reinforcement around the edge, it just concerinered up, I put the old one back, and returned it to ECP who gladly replaced it for another make that was even better than the VW one and the same price as the HENGST. The moral is that just because it is an OEM doesn't make it the best part. And if they say they are an OE company, it's true, but not neccessarily for that part. Companies who were not commisioned to make an original part for the manufacturer often don't make one, and buy other pattern parts printed with their own name, so that all possible parts are in the catalogue and available to the aftermarket.
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>>From a trade p[oint of view, motor factors supply a lot of fliters because of the convenience too.
Yes, in both the cases of the garages in my family (the one my father ran, and the one my cousin does run), we entered into a very decent arrangement with the motor factors. As we were at the extreme end of their delivery run, we would keep an amount of their faster moving stock on our shelves, which they would invoice us for as we used it.
It's quite difficult when you are forced to use the dealer, because as Yorkiebar says, it costs quite a bit of extra time to either wait for their delivery (if they do deliveries), or, more commonly, go and pick up the bits yourself.
Unfortunately, there's no short cut other than painful experience to finding out which parts you can safely use non-genuine, and which manufacturer's parts make the job easier, or functionally better. An obvious example is the problem years ago with Lada oil filters - most non-genuine oil filters for that particular application didn't have the appropriate anti drain back valves at all, and using these caused damage on these engines.
For most users of this site, I would say that unless a part is eye wateringly expensive, then it's best to go to the dealer - one of the problems with using factors is that getting the wrong parts is quite a common occurence (especially on certain makes of car which have many parts variations - e.g., girling or bendix brake system?) - in the trade, this is a nuisance, but in a DIY situation, finding that you have the wrong part with your car in bits on the drive on a Sunday afternoon isn't at all fun!.
Number_Cruncher
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See my correspondence with Halfords,
there was a lengty thread on this some time ago and I post the reply received from Halfords
Oil filters - pmh Tue 8 Apr 03 09:44
This is basically the reply I received from a product manager at Halfords, who appears to be prepared to state facts and not make it into a an overt sales promotional opportunity. I have his agreement to publish his text. It is good to see someone prepared to go on record.
Based on this I will be prepared to use their own Brand products rather than the premium priced Champion Branded product!
- Halfords oil and air filters are made by Sogefi Filtration Europe's largest filter manufacturer
- Sogefi have factories all over Europe and own the top 3 brands sales wise in the UK - Fram,Coopers and Crosland
- They are OE to most vehicle manufacturers in Europe.
- a Halfords filter in most cases will be identical to the OE. eg A Ford oil filter and a Halfords oil filter are identical apart from the colour
- No filter manufacturer makes every single filter they sell. Much intertrading is done as it is just not economical to tool up for everything.
- In common with all filter manufacturers there will be the odd difference in size etc but to no noticable detriment to the
filters performance. This is called rationalisation eg one manufacture may have say 4 part numbers for a Golf and another covers it with 2 . For a Fiesta it will be the other way round depending on who was OE when the vehicle was in production.
- as Halfords have chosen Europes largest filter manufacturer as a supplier we should be an exact match more times than we are not - No-one will be 100%
- Champion are are relatively small UK player with just one Italian factory. The success of the spark plugs making Champion a well known brand to the general public is the only reason we stock the filters. They are not widely stocked in motor factors supplying the garage trade.
see the whole thread
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=26116&...e
--
pmh (was peter)
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I think the Halfords man is talking rubbish. Here's what I found when I disected one of their filters:-
"The Halfords filter is reasonably priced (£6.29) but has the second lowest filter area. The filter material itself is also pretty thin, as is the canister metal, and the main crimp looked a little lightweight. The anti-drain valve is a different arrangement to the other three, in that it's a floppy nitrile disc held in place by a spring disc. It appears to offer a good sealing arrangement against the end plate. The bypass seal is nitrile rubber and is mounted in a spring steel plate (top left). The downside as I saw it, is the plate with bypass valve, and the end plate with the anti-drain valve, are sealed only against the ends of the filter element, which are cardboard. The glue joining the filter element to the cardboard endplates didn't inspire much confidence, as it came apart easily. The main seal is only a very slight interference fit in it's groove, and could easily fall out or get misplaced when fitting."
Quite clearly it was of inferior quality to the genuine item, even if it was allegedly made by one of the largest filter manufacturers.
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Did you dissect a "genuine" oil filter and compare that?
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Did you dissect a "genuine" oil filter and compare that?
Yes. Go to www.autoair.co.uk/Filters.htm to see my results.
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Fram and Coopers are at the 'budget' end of the market, I tend to try and avoid them, as they always seem a bit cheap and nasty, and Crosland don't make them for cars any more and the UK factory shut last year, they still distribute them for some industrial (hydraulic etc...) applications.
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Good work there Dave N, very professionally done and very insightful. Like you say it is generally accepted that the filters are made by one or two different manufacturers and are only labelled differently. Your evidence shows us that even if they are, then they are not necessarily the same inside.
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It's interesting that the Halfords man says their filters come from Sogefi, who also own the fram name. But the Halfords filter was nothing like the Fram filter I opened. As they allegedly come from the same company, one would expect them to be of similar construction. If they do indeed come from the same company, then it just goes to show that the same company can make two completely different products for the same application.
This takes us back to where we started, I guess. Just because Ford (for example) sources their filters from company X, it doesn't mean that a ford fitment filter from the same company is the same as the Ford filter.
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Not out to make you buy any make, its up to you, but I dont think what you have done is a comprehensive test.
Were all the filters for the same application? what application was it? how many different ones of each make did you try? And do you honestly think that 1 maker will make 2 filters for the same car?
1 other thing that bugs me about filters from main dealers in a lot of cases is how they are sold without any cover ove rthe filter, potentially allowing all sorts of rubbish inside them before fitting.
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Two different styles of filters from the same maker?
Hmm, that's probably because they didn't make either.
Every batch probably goes out to tender.
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Not out to make you buy any make, its up to you, but I dont think what you have done is a comprehensive test.
It wasn't supposed to be, it was merely curiosity. It wasn't done under laboratory conditions either. I don't remember ever saying it was comprehensive.Were all the filters for the same application?
Yes, of course they were. It may not have been comprehensive, but I'mnot stupid!!
what application wasit?
Honda 2.3l, as it says at the top of the page.
how many different ones of each make did you try?
1. I'm not made of money.
And do you honestly think that 1 maker will make 2 filters for the same car?
Yes. I know it happens. And according to the Halfords man, they buy from one source, and that same source make Fram filters, but it was different to the Halfords one.1 other thing that bugs me about filters from main dealers in a lot of cases is how they are sold without any cover ove rthe filter, potentially allowing all sorts of rubbish inside them before fitting.
Here's an offer to anyone out there. Send me a Filter from Ford for a 2.0 petrol mondeo, and go to halfords and buy one of theirs and a champion one, and I'll disect them for you. But it won't be 'comprehensive', 'cos I don't run a laboratory, and if you're feeling flush then buy 2 of each for me to look at.
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Couple of points.
I personally believe the letter from halfords and the text in it. Way too much information for it to be wrong (legal problems etc)
They specifically state about how their brand is oe to european car assemblers and you compare with a japanese part. They are likey to be different do you not think?
But a comparison of a european part to a halfords part would be of more beneift to all. Otherwise its like comparing 2 brands that say that are not the same so you would expect differences.
My point is (that with a few exceptions ) the "genuine" parts you buy are not made by the people with the badge on the product !
i personally have fitted a few hundred (or thousand?) filters in my time of all makes and (touch wood) have only ever had a problem with 1, which happened to be a vauxhall supplied filter for an astra and cost me an engine rebuild. Their guarantee was so good that they would do nothing because they had not fitted it ! Wonder if thats explained properly when you buy 1 from them !
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>>My point is (that with a few exceptions ) the "genuine" parts you buy are not made by the people with the badge on the product !
This is true and reasonable - that car manufacturers use a range of suppliers is a well established fact.
But, it does not logically follow that the aftermarket filters made by that supplying company must be made to the same standard as the OEM ones made by that company. For reasons of production economy they might be exactly the same specification, but not necessarily.
Whoever makes the genuine part isn't really the important point - it is that the genuine part is engineered to comply with technical requirements defined by the vehicle or engine manufacturer. The part is designed and tested against these requirements - this isn't true for aftermarket parts. By chance, aftermarket parts might exceed the technical requirements of the genuine filters, but then again, they may not!
Number_Cruncher
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The op was about how to identify accepatable quality parts, and I think using filters from brands that are up to oe quality such as sogefi group is an acceptable answer. others disagree !
But all the talk has been on oil filters; lets just explore wheel bearings for a second with your comment of aftermarket products being up to vehicle assembler requirements.
Vauxhall, Ford, Peugeot, Citroen and lots more use Koyo bearings as are supplied by virtually every after market supplier at generally half price or less.
A classic case of where the "genuine" part is not any better than after market despite being considerably dearer ! The list can go on and on of course against other products.
Not out to start a war, or even continue it, but blindly accepting that "genuine" parts are better than after market is not correct !
But my final point is that you pays your money and takes your choice. and as I believe you said in a earlier post, its easy for a trade person to know what makes are good and what are not; and that is probably the deciding factor for non trade people to use a dealer !
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Not completely off topic - I once did some IT consultancy for a flavour manufacturer. They had over 600 different "recipes" for cola flavouring with widely varying cost, taste and health characteristics.
I wouldn't regard a filter to fit a Ford/Vauxhall/etc from company x as being the same as they supply to Ford/Vauxhall/etc as OE equipment.
An oil filter does, arguably, the most important single job on an engine.
Why does any owner want or need to fit a cheaper, probably inferior, oil filter.
The fact that the motor trade can save a few pounds a week is deplorable if, as it appears, it results in the fitment of inferior oil filters which just hasten engine wear.
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I dont think any genuine person in the trade fits a poor quality filter to save money for himself ! They will use quality parts for the customers benefit.
What happens when you have a filter fitted at amain dealer when they have run out of stock? They buy 1 in from a factor, the same as the trade do, and fit it. On the invoice you get will be an * stating that the part is from an approved supplier !
It happens a lot, believe me !
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>>An oil filter does, arguably, the most important single job on an engine.
Not really - once the casting sand and machining swarf has been caught by the first OEM filter when the car is new, most filters don't do a great deal. If they did, it would really matter to fit brand XYZ filters to obtain a good engine life, and because engines not fitted with band XYZ filters would have failed, we would know all about it. That isn't the case.
In reality, lubrication based engine failures are rare - it's one reason why I find a lot of the "should I use xWyy or aWbb viscosity oil?" that flare up like a bad rash every now and again in Technical so much hot air. In most cases, it really doesn't matter. In most dealers, there's only one bulk oil tank, and everything that goes into the dealers workshop gets a dose of whatever oil happens to be in the tank that month. If it mattered, engines would be failing left right and centre! This isn't the case.
Number_Cruncher
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Thanks for the replies so far. I asked the question because I want to use top quality stuff, without having to go to a main dealer's glass palace.
It seems from the replies that there are a few different opinions. I wanted to service my Landrover, I have ordered genuine oil and air filters which were about £2 more than Coopers. The genuine fuel filter was £12 more, so I have ordered a Coopers one, I hope it will be OK.
When servicing my previous ZX the non genuine air filter was slightly too long and would not fit, so I had to change it for a proper one, not very good.
When a car was serviced you used to be able to see what make of filter was used, but with these new metal free filters it is now impossible, so they could use the cheapest stuff they can find, not too good IMO.
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For the past 40 years I have serviced all the cars I or SWMBO own. I have used pattern filters ... or manufacturers.. and never noticed any difference (but did not go for cheapest or ones where I KNEW a non return valve was essential.)
Oil quality and ensuring a new oil filter is filled with new oil before refitting and not racing an engine from cold are - imo - far more importnat to engine longevity BUT a non return valve that works is also!
madf
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had a leaking air spring on a discovery ,phoned land rover for price =£180 +vat so phoned a local specialist who qouted £80+vat ,both parts have the same makers part no and moulding numbers only one of them also has land rover and thier part no ,the local hero passed on some tips for easier fitting as my wife didn`t have time to wait while they fitted it
I wont even bother to phone the main dealer next time
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I helped a mate replace the headlights on his Lotus Elise s1 (stupidly - it was a nightmare of a job!!), and the Lotus dealer wanted £120 each + VAT for the light units. On closer examination of the headlights in the car, we discovered a Valeo logo and part number on the rear of the unit.
I'd recalled a local motor factor selling me a Valeo light unit for SWMBO's old 306 some time ago so I gave them a call. Could be ordered for next day delivery, and £49 + VAT each. As expected the £49 lights were indistinguishable from the £120 originals (apart from the lack of corrosion on the reflectors that is).
Cheers
DP
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After practical experimentation with different oil filters, basically comparing the effectiveness of their non-return valves by seeing how many fractions of a second it took for the oil light to go out, I concluded that there is no guarantee that any of the makes are fully up to proper specification.
A genuine-looking Volvo filter from a well known suplier mentioned above was not non-return. A Volvo filter direct from a Volvo dealer was. Some of the alternative approved Champion filters are, some are not (all same reference number C164).
Comparing an old C164 with a new one I notice that the design of the internal valve has been changed. It is not as good at holding the drainage as it used to be.
I cynically suspect they are all made by the same enterprise in China, and the quality is completely erratic. Some may be stamped Volvo, some Ratners own-brand economy filter, but they are all just as likely to be good, or bad.
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A lot is made of non return valves in a lot of filters, and possibly rightly so.
But in a lot of applications, the oil filter is at the bottom of the engine and the oil cannot return anywhere anyway so a non return valve is not of any use whatsoever, confirmed by technical department of a vehicle manufacturer, for a specific purpose of mine!
Obviously when the filter is held inverted, or on side of engine its a different case, and a working relief valve can be tested by seeing if oil spills when undoing the filter. Never known 1 not to !
Perhaps sometimes a little knowledge can be unhelpful or more.
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Surely it's not just the oil in the filter that a non-return valve holds, it's all the oil beyond it in the galleries? The filter might be at sump level, but without a valve all the oil above that level has to be pumped up again before the bearings get any oil under pressure.
(Just a thought - that would mean on draining the oil it is important to release the filter, not simply remove it after the oil has drained out)
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The valve, if fitted, only holds oil in the filter.
When you undo an oil filter and oil is held, or spills out from it, then the valve has worked !
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The valve, if fitted, only holds oil in the filter.
My Triumph has a low vertically-mounted filter, the right way up. If I carefully unscrew the filter I can keep it full and level and not spill a drop. But oil pours out of the mounting for some time after the filter is clear, as the oilways empty. I agree, that shows the non-return valve is working.
But it's like diagnosing CJD after the patient has died!
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I overtook a truck yesterday with the legend "The art of BMW Genuine Parts" writ large on the side of the trailer, together with a huge black and white picture of a clutch plate. Sure enough, Google returns www.bmw.co.uk/genuineparts/
Strange subject!
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Interesting observation on that site!
The "genuine" timing belt clearly shows its made by continental !
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Quite often the cost of genuine filters is mot much more than the alternative ones. I always manage to get a 10%
discount at the dealer just by asking.
I've been wary of non-genuine filters after fitting an OEM Japanese air filter to my old nissan vanette. the non genuine one clogged up with oily deposits after a few thousand miles whilst the genuine one (actually a Mann filter). Lasted years with regular cleaning (no oily deposits)
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Dare I say that the non genuine one was woking well by trapping the oil ? that shouldn.t be there anyway !
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The genuine one was trapping dust as it was meant to. Having the non-genuine filter in place was causing some problem with the engine/breather system
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