GM may go broke - NowWheels
Don't tell the Vectra-fans such as Jeremy Clarkson, but it seems that General Motors may go broke.

Both the Times and The Grauniad report The Bank of America saying that there is a one-in-three chance that GM will have to file for bankruptcy.

See w********************/article/0,,5-1819743,00.html
and
www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,1589111,0...l
GM may go broke - Armitage Shanks {p}
Six months ago GM were described as "A pension and healthcare provider that makes cars as a sideline". I think they have been placed in further financial difficulty by the demise of a subsidary called Delphi which they sold off some time ago and which has now gone into Chapter 11 protection itself. Even so, GM is still responsible for all of Delphi's financial obligations if it goes from Chapter 11 to total failure
GM may go broke - Ford Dagenham
Hello.

What will happen to Vauxhall.
--
(iam not a mechanic)

Martin Winters
GM may go broke - Dalglish
A pension and healthcare provider that makes cars as a
sideline

>>

first a generalised comment which applies to the car and other industries in the uk. in my view:

unfortunately, with the uk's demographics, we too as a country are headed towards the gm status of the fewer proportion of younger genration being the "pension and healthcare provider" of the older longer living generation.

the future of the car manufacturing industry ( and most others for that matter ) seems to lie in the communist state of china which by definition looks after its workers from cradle to grave.

GM may go broke - NowWheels
the future of the car manufacturing industry ( and most others
for that matter ) seems to lie in the communist state
of china which by definition looks after its workers from cradle
to grave.


I beg to differ.

China is now communist only in name. The cynics call its system "market leninism", cos there ain't much marxism here, just plenty of leninist repression.

The result is an economy which bears more resemblance to 1970s Chile than anything communist: the rich get very rich, while the workers are paid sod all and have no political right to challenge their plight.

Far from looking after its workforce, China's competitiveness arises in large part from the ability of its businesses to completely stuff their workers, in a way which has long since been unimaginable in Yurp or Merka.
GM may go broke - patently
Rover has already found out, but now GM is also discovering that in order to remain in existence, the trick is to earn more money from selling stuff than you spend on raw materials, stock options for the boss, and salary & benefits for the staff.

It does amaze me how often this is ignored.
GM may go broke - Dalglish
I beg to differ.

>>

i will bow to your superior knowledge in these matters.
i am afraid all i know about communism is from reading george orwell's "animal farm".

but as you sum up, the only way for the west to compete with china in manufacturing cars is then to follow suit and "completely stuff their workers". or follow rover's example and sell out to the chinese. same difference in the end.

GM may go broke - Bill Payer
Apparently SUV sales in the US (which were pretty profitable in gross $ terms for GM /Ford etc) were down around 60% last month.
GM may go broke - Armitage Shanks {p}
In the last financial year Ford (US) made more profit from financing loans on their cars than they did from actually selling them.
GM may go broke - J Bonington Jagworth
We forget that cars are really astonishingly cheap for the amount of material, assembly and precision engineering they represent.

When I was knee-high, I remember my Dad's eyebrows rising at the discovery that a Ford had broken the £1000 barrier, this in a time when that was well over a year's salary for most people. Now an average income in the UK will buy a new car in a few months, and the product will be several times as sophisticated as a 1960 Zodiac!

FWIW, I think GM's situation parallels that of the US as a whole. Bush's adventure in Iraq has cost £320bn, most of it borrowed...
GM may go broke - Xileno {P}
Now an average income in the UK will
buy a new car in a few months,


I wish!!
GM may go broke - J Bonington Jagworth
Now an average income in the UK will
buy a new car in a few months,


>I wish!!

I mean if you spent all of it (including the tax) and you were earning what HMG says is the average income. This is apparently about £30k per household, although not in my neck of the woods, unfortunately!
GM may go broke - Ruperts Trooper
Filing for Chapter 11 Bankrupcy Protection isn't the same for a US company as filing for bankrupcy.

Chapter 11 prevents any of their normal trade debtors from foreclosing on them. It's used to to gain breathing space to re-structure a company when things are difficult. Chapter 11 only applies in US corporate law - many UK and EC companies have wished it existed here.

GM's problem is that it's had lots of financially difficult subsidiaries / joint ventures (Delphi, Daewoo, Saab, Isuzu, Subaru and Opel) without profitable divisions.

When Americans finally wake up and realise that they can mitigate the effect of global warming caused by CO2 emissions by buying more fuel efficient cars, then GM and Ford will really suffer. It won't be as simple as increasing production of smaller vehices in Europe, that's a timescale measured in years.
GM may go broke - L'escargot
Six months ago GM were described as "A pension and healthcare
provider that makes cars as a sideline".


To an extent that's the way it should be. There are far too few firms these days that look after their employees. Most employers don't seem to realise that many employees make a big long-term commitment when joining the company.
--
L\'escargot.
GM may go broke - patently
To an extent that's the way it should be. There are
far too few firms these days that look after their employees.


Nice way of looking after them, I must say. "Sorry; we made a pig's ear of things. Your pension stops tomorrow. Oh, and best stay healthy from now on." How does the long-term commitment feel then?!

Perhaps it would have been better to offer less benefits but stay in business long enough to provide them? Ah ... hindsight...
GM may go broke - NowWheels
Perhaps it would have been better to offer less benefits but
stay in business long enough to provide them? Ah ...
hindsight...


It might have been, but surely the question is why benefits were not properly funded. An individual business probably has little control over the spiralling costs of healthcare in the USA, but if US pension funds have been anywhere near as badly managed as ours, then the pensions gap is at least partly a self-imposed crisis.

I dunno whether the GM pension fund had a contribution holiday as so many UKanian funds did in the 90s, but I'd want to see more of the accounts before I accepted that generosity-to-employees was the cause of the crisis.
GM may go broke - Mike H
Serves them right. They've managed to transform Saab from a respected, technically innovative prestige brand into a badge-engineered mass market shopping trolley. They've now intent on ruining Subaru with a bland new Forester. Having sucked the life out of two fantastic brands, and ejected the bare bones, they deserve all they get. Perhaps Saab and Subaru could regain their independence and become some semblence of their former selves.
GM may go broke - $till $kint
Subaru already has. Fujitsu have regained full control of the grtoup.
GM may go broke - rtj70
Think you'll find Fuji Heavy Industries and Toyota bought GM's share of Subaru. Fuji already owned most of Subaru anyway. Fujitsu on the other hand is a Japanese technology company and nothing to do with Fuji Heavy Industries.
GM may go broke - J Bonington Jagworth
"bland new Forester"

For the Chinese market..?
GM may go broke - Red Baron
Chapter 11 generally presents the company with an opportunity to, in this case, force its unions to accept sweeping cuts in benefits or else end up with nothing at all.

Buying a car is most peoples most significant financial transaction after a mortgate. It really does pay to look at the short term financial situation of the company vis-a-vis replacement parts and warranty.

I certainly won't be buying a new GM car in the near future.
GM may go broke - Altea Ego
Oh for gods sake. You lot are like flaping around like a lot of seals. "Oooooo oooooo! I wont buy Vauxhalls now"

Let me remind you. GM has been here before - and worse and its still around. Ford has been there and worse and is still around!


GM is not another Rover.
GM may go broke - TheGrocer
At the risk of "Flapping Around Like a Seal" interesting analgy renault family... Its worth pointing out that GM rely heavily on the US SUV market which, after Katrina and its impacts on fuel prices, is sending Mr & Mrs Middle America running away from the gas guzzling SUVs into the arms of the cheaper and more frugal toyotas.
GM may go broke - Altea Ego
"Its worth pointing out that GM rely heavily on the US SUV market"

Correction

GM *AND* Ford - SUV market is highly profitable for both of them.
GM may go broke - patently
Oh for gods sake. You lot are like flaping around like
a lot of seals. "Oooooo oooooo! I wont buy Vauxhalls now"


Wouldn't have bought one before. Still won't now. But that is due to factors other than the financial situation of the maker. (Sorry DD!)

I'd rather have a volume car made near here by someone who is now bust, than a car made in volumes by someone far away who will take a week or more to get parts to me. If there are plenty of cars around, someone will find it viable to supply the spares.

GM may go broke - Xileno {P}
It's a bit odd that GM are having these problems because they are actually producing some nice cars at the moment eg. New Zafira looks quite trendy.
GM may go broke - Thommo
Chapter 11 is indeed a wonderful thing for companies and EU companies have been pushing for a similar law for decades.

Basically the company goes under the protection of the Court and as said debtors of any description can not foreclose or even trigger forfeiture clause in legal agreements. A company can stay in Chapter 11 pretty much indefinitely and so can sit back and wait until its creditors have had enough and agree to getting something, anything, out of the situation.

The unions will have to accept drastically cut back pension and health rights or GM will just remain in Chapter 11 until they do.

Those who advocate 'looking after the workers' need to understand than in the time it takes the US (and UK workers) to brew some tea and sit down and have a union meeting the Chinese have knocked out 5 cars.

Change or die.
GM may go broke - smokie
My company visited Chapter 11 a few years back. One of the benefits was apparently not having to pay landlords for rent for buildings now empty due to downsizing.

GM may go broke - cockle {P}
Those who advocate 'looking after the workers' need to understand than
in the time it takes the US (and UK workers) to
brew some tea and sit down and have a union meeting
the Chinese have knocked out 5 cars.


Mmmm, and by the time our managers get back from their round of golf their management will probably have worked out a way to produce 6 cars in the same time they used to produce 5.
It isn't all the fault of the guys at the sharp end, for a company to be succesful it also needs to be led well, isn't that the reason we're told that they are worth so big a salary?
That you only get the best if you pay the most?
Seems like some need to get off the course and start earning it.

Same as the advocates of us all working until we're 70 before being able to draw our pension tend to be people who work in nice warm dry offices and push paper round desks or push buttons on a keyboard. Ask a guy on a production line or a building site somewhere whether he fancies another five years at work before he can draw the pension he's paid into for 45 years, you'll probably get a slightly different answer.
GM may go broke - Dalglish
cockle and no-wheels :

you have all the answers, and you have my vote to run the car industry ( and pensions and healthcare to boot ). with your input, we can make the uk the no.1 economy in the world - rather than the badly managed no.4 that it is currently.

GM may go broke - NowWheels
cockle and no-wheels :
you have all the answers

[snip]

Not at all: I have very few. But I can somtimes spot when the answers being given are dodgy.
GM may go broke - wemyss
Having virtually open and free markets across the world by Britain will remove the problems of having to work until you reach 70.
You simply won?t have the jobs left to totter off to as everything will be made or done in the low paid 3rd World .
By then of course you won?t be able to afford them so it shouldn?t be a problem.
The Western world at some stage has to defend itself from this folly.
We have had virtually every industry including motor cars, Motorcycles, HGVs to keep a motoring thread (and even bikes) taken away from us.
Free trade is a pipe dream by enlightened politicians in my opinion across so many diverse areas. They would change their mind if their jobs were made available to the cheapest.

GM may go broke - Ruperts Trooper
Our industries haven't been taken away, they were given away.

Just like we gave the atomic bomb to the Americans and the jet engine to the Russians.
GM may go broke - L'escargot
Serves them right......

<< Having sucked the life out of two fantastic
brands, and ejected the bare bones, they deserve all they get.


It's all very well saying that, but spare a thought for how the employees (and shareholders) that would suffer.
--
L\'escargot.
GM may go broke - Bagpuss
My company do projects with the car industry around the world and it's true to say that none of the big 3 here in the US are doing particularly well, though GM seems particularly badly affected. Actually GM in Europe appear to have turned the corner, the problem is the home market. In my opinion, GM basically has uncompetititive products in the US and an uncompetitive manufacturing base.

The management have bled GM dry for years with uncompetitive products and lack of investment and innovation, this is changing but slowly. I have a Cadillac DeVille at the moment as a rental car (as a change from the usual huge SUV)and it's just simply not as good as a Chrysler 300M or a Lexus, let alone a BMW or Merc.

Meanwhile the unions have arrangements which wouldn't look out of place at Brtish Leyland ca. 1975. Health costs paid for workers and retirees for life, very high fixed salaries, generous pensions, people being paid to stay at home when there's no work, restrictive practices on the shop floor (for those who are actually at work) to name but a few. Actually, whilst all western countries are struggling with labour costs compared to Eastern Europe and Asia, practices in the manufacturing industry here in the US are frequently more restrictive and less flexible than in Germany or France, despite what the Torygraph may report.
GM may go broke - carl_a
Meanwhile the unions have arrangements which wouldn't look out of place
at Brtish Leyland ca. 1975. Health costs paid for workers and
retirees for life, very high fixed salaries, generous pensions, people being
paid to stay at home when there's no work, restrictive practices
on the shop floor (for those who are actually at work)
to name but a few. Actually, whilst all western countries are
struggling with labour costs compared to Eastern Europe and Asia, practices
in the manufacturing industry here in the US are frequently more
restrictive and less flexible than in Germany or France, despite what
the Torygraph may report.


But this applies mainly to the BIG three, the Japanese and Koreans have un-unionised factories with very flexible arrangments. They get land and grants given to them by each state to cover setup costs and a flexible workforce.

Toyota is so worried about a backlash by US consumer or government, due to their fantastic sales. They've been increasing car prices to reduce sales growth while most other players have reduced prices.
GM may go broke - madf
A comment from a free email geared to investments:
October 11, 2005
by Mike Shedlock ~ "Mish"
Midwest, U.S.A.


Focus on Autos


MarketWatch is reporting "Ford's SUV Sales Halved in September":

"Ford Motor Co. reported Monday that sales of its traditional SUVs plunged 51% in September, as consumers continued their mass exodus from the thirstiest vehicles on the road amid record gasoline prices.

"Overall, Ford turned in a 19% decline in U.S. sales last month, to 228,157 cars and trucks. Crossover and passenger car sales actually improved, but not nearly enough to make up for the steep decline of its bulkier SUVs.

"Sales of the Ford Explorer and Expedition were both off about 60% from a year ago while the much smaller Escape, which is available with a hybrid engine, shed only 4%.

"And the trend doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon, according to Steve Lyons, head of Ford North America sales.

"'Traditional SUVs will continue to face headwinds in the coming months,' he said, adding that customers did most of their buying in the summer months when employee discounting sparked an industry-wide sales boom.

"Sales of the top-selling F-Series truck fell 30%, to 69,643."

Ford was not alone with SUV woes. General Motors SUV and pickup truck sales were down by one-third. Now that sounds pretty bad to me. I would assume it would sound pretty bad to everyone, but that is not the case. GM sales analyst Paul Ballew described sales as "pretty comforting":

"'I would describe final industry results as actually pretty comforting,' said GM sales analyst Paul Ballew. 'We're still waiting for a portion of the industry to report, but from the estimates we have, as well as what's been released to date, the industry right now is at or above our expectations heading into the month.'

"General Motors posted a 24% decline, to 349,202 vehicles. Car sales fell 14.5% while truck sales plunged 29.5%.



"Some of the biggest decliners included the Cadillac Escalade ESV, down 39.5% and the Chevy Suburban, off 56.6%.

"The world's top automaker blamed a tough comparison to last year when it was promoting zero-percent financing. The diminishing effect of its employee pricing plan was also a factor, GM said.

"GM is looking for its new GMT900 lineup, due out next year, to boost sales in the sluggish SUV segment."

It does not take much to get these guys excited, does it? Since when is a 33% decline in sales anything to take comfort in? While GM is ramping up production of SUVs, Toyota and others are ramping up production of hybrids like the Prius.

"Toyota Q1 Profits Jump 28.8%."

This is what Toyota is doing: "Starting in the April-October 2005 period, Toyota plans to increase its production capacity of its popular hybrid Prius vehicles by 50% to 15,000 units a month from the current 10,000."

Yes those are Q1 profits, but I am looking for forward strategy and leadership. Toyota seems to have it. GM and Ford do not. This is just a hunch, but with soaring gasoline prices I bet those hybrids do very well.

Mish, is that the extent of GM's problems? Hardly. Let's summarize all of the problems I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Falling sales
2. Enormous debt
3. Union strife
4. Delphi and supplier problems
5. Cost disadvantages versus Toyota to the tune of several thousand dollars per car
6. poor management
7. Poor quality versus foreign competition
8. Lack of industry vision
9. Medical benefit problems
10. Pension woes

Those were the problems that came to mind in about 15 seconds flat. There are probably more.

Mish, didn't GM say its pension funding problems were solved and it is fully funded? Yes it did.

Unfortunately, "GM and a U.S. Agency See Pensions in Different Lights":

"The federal government contends that General Motors' pension fund is $31 billion short of what it owes its work force, according to closely held government data, a figure in stark contrast to GM's assurances that its pension plans are 'fully funded.'

"The government's finding of a huge imbalance suggests that the pension fund may have much larger claims on the company than GM's financial filings have indicated. It was calculated by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, the federal agency whose job it is to insure employee pensions if a company fails to meet its obligations.

"Both the government agency's and GM's methods of tracking pensions are legally acceptable, and their ability to produce such widely varying results shows the difficulty that employees or shareholders have in trying to ascertain the true condition of a corporate pension fund. But the disparity in such estimates has grown increasingly important as some large companies like United Airlines have gone bankrupt, leaving the agency, which took over United's pension plan, with far greater unfunded obligations than previously thought.

"The discrepancy between the government's and the company's figures is the result of different assumptions made about how long GM would keep operating the pension fund. The federal guarantor made its estimate on what is called a termination basis -- it measured the amount that GM would owe its workers if it were to terminate its pension plans immediately. GM's calculation that its pension plan is fully funded assumes that the fund will keep going, rather than being ended.

"Since 1994, companies with weak pension funds have been required by law to calculate the value of their pension funds on a termination basis and to send the information to the pension guaranty agency. But Congress also enacted a measure keeping the information secret, in response to the stated concerns of companies, who argued that the information could be misconstrued if shared with the public.

"The pension agency did not release GM's own estimate of its pensions on a termination basis, which continues to be secret. GM said it sent its most recent calculation to the agency about a year ago. The agency made its own calculation at the end of June and released the figure in response to a request under the Freedom of Information Act.

"In response to questions about the federal agency's calculation, GM released a statement saying it considered it 'unrealistic and not indicative of GM's ability to provide future retirement benefits.'

"'GM takes its pension obligations very seriously,' the statement continued. 'The corporation has contributed more than $56 billion over the last 12 years to fund our pension plans and meet our obligations to our current and future retirees.'"

Now I don't know about you, but I have a problem taking seriously a company that is comforted when sales decline a mere 33% while banking on selling more SUVs with soaring gas prices. The article continues in explaining the discrepancy. Let's tune back in:

"GM's pension fund is actually made up of two big plans, one for salaried employees and one for hourly workers. At the end of 2004, GM reported that the two plans had total assets of $91 billion, and total benefits owed of $89 billion, for a surplus of $2 billion.

"The government's calculation involves a variety of different assumptions about the future value of benefits the company owes. Terminating the fund means workers would no longer build up any new benefits, and GM would no longer provide cash from its continuing operations. But someone -- either the government or an insurance company -- would still have the obligation to pay all retirees the benefits they had earned, on schedule, in the future.

"(Companies with plenty of money can also terminate their pension plans by paying an insurance company to take over the obligations. In GM's case, the government estimated that an insurer would charge $31 billion in addition to the money in the fund.)

"The government says its figure gives the more truthful picture of the plan's condition. The current pension accounting standard specifically cites the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation's method as 'appropriate.'


"But most companies have resisted using the termination method, both because it can make their pension plans look very weak, and because they say they do not intend to end their plans. Business groups say that reporting pension values on a termination basis would needlessly alarm and confuse employees.

"But as big corporate bankruptcies and pension plan failures accelerated in the last few years, weakening the entire pension system, a small but growing number of economists, accountants, and government officials began to take the position that companies with low credit ratings -- like GM -- should be required to disclose the termination values of their pension plans.

"Labor Secretary Elaine L. Chao called for such disclosure in a speech in January. Access to the termination data, now secret, would 'empower workers, investors, regulators, and the public,' Ms. Chao said.

"'The goal is to ensure that the assumptions that go into measuring a plan's liability better reflect whether or not it will be terminated.'

"United Airlines, for example, kept reporting its pension values on the usual, continuing basis, even in its third year of bankruptcy, when it was no longer making the minimum contributions required by law and it was clear that termination was inevitable. On this basis, United, a unit of the UAL Corporation, reported a $6 billion shortfall as of the end of 2004.

"But when the government agency finally took over the plans this year, it recalculated them on a termination basis and found a total shortage of $10.2 billion. United's work force and the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation will bear that shortage."

The article said that the PBGC will bear any shortages. That, unfortunately, is not entirely accurate. The PBGC is just an arm of the Federal Government. Pension shortages when a company goes under will be covered in one of two ways:

1. Reduced benefits
2. Taxpayer bailouts

When it comes to GM, I expect both to happen. An existing law due to expire in December let companies get away with murder on their pension assumptions. Presumably, it was enacted to help companies tide themselves over while the "recovery" was gaining traction. Well, here we are with a recovery that seems all but dead just as we are about to head into the recession of 2006. By postponing the problem, all we did was make things worse. I guess we will now see if Congress has the guts to mandate full funding of pension plans on a conservative basis, as well as change the rules for pension accounting as applied to corporate quarterly earnings statements, or if it will kowtow once again to industry lobbyists.

In the meantime, anyone working for GM that has a chance at an early retirement and a lump sum pension payout might wish to talk to a financial advisor about taking it. I remain convinced that GM is headed towards bankruptcy unless and until it confronts that mammoth list of problems head-on. I see no reason to believe it can or it will.

Mike Shedlock ~ "Mish"



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madf
GM may go broke - Armitage Shanks {p}
Wednesday's Telegraph reports that Delphi management have told workers that they will have to accept a 66% cut in wages and benefits if the company is to survive! I don't think it is a misprint - 6% would cause a ruckus - 66% is really scary!
GM may go broke - Ford Dagenham
hello.

I asked this question earlier but did not get a reply.

What will happen to vauxhall.
--
(iam not a mechanic)

Martin Winters
GM may go broke - J Bonington Jagworth
"What will happen to vauxhall"

Too many unknowns. GM is unlikely to collapse overnight, so sections that could return to autonomy may get a chance. All bets are off at this stage, though, I imagine.
GM may go broke - madf
Vauxhall?
It's peripheral. Tiny.

IF there is a major rationalisation of European operations, I would imagine it would be the first to go. And it's cheaper and easier to make UK emplyess redundant than German...
madf
GM may go broke - Ruperts Trooper
Vauxhall is just a brand for the UK, Opel is used throughout the rest of Europe.

One possibility might be to float GM Europe as a completely seperate company but I'm not sure that it's very healthy in it's own right. It has a lot of over-capacity to get rid of, principally in Germany
GM may go broke - greenhey
Delphi was spun off as a separate business from GM years back, in the sort of sell the family silver strategy we see big companies pay advisers big fees to suggest.
To make the Delphi proposition even juicier for the investor GM guaranteed to buy components in the future from Delphi at above-market prices.
Even with this leg-up Delphi couldn't make it .Perhaps its management went to sleep thinking the GM deal would underwrite the company for ever. Unfortunately I guess having GM as your major customer has not been such the blessing they might have thought
GM may go broke - DrS
Generally, with these complex multi national mega corporations, each entity is so tied up with all other parts, each owing the other money, and being owed money by the others, when one goes, they all go.
In my experience.
GM may go broke - madf
Delphi's management stated they based their Business Plan on increasing output to mitigate their higher than competitors' costs. A quick look at GM's sales history and model range would have shown an average skkollkid with GCSE O levels maths that that was whistling in the wind (the more appropriate simile would be filtered:-): GM sales trends were, and still are down long term..

Who buys US car exports in volume? No-one. They are largely unique to a market which is surprisingly insular in many areas whilst at the same time eroded by foreign brands. Small cars? Fuel economy? SUV fuel consumption and safety? All issues carefully avoided by US car companies and legislation..

With management like that they were doomed from the start.


madf
GM may go broke - buzbee
Ah, bring back the days when your (1960's) Ford Cortina was rusting through from the inside of the bodywork at the end of its 3rd year ;<)
GM may go broke - madf
"Ah, bring back the days when your (1960's) Ford Cortina was rusting through from the inside of the bodywork at the end of its 3rd year ;<)"

Yours was obviously one of the better ones then? :-)
madf