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I'll roll out my not-so-silly idea again, just in case it gains a little more currency: when resurfacing motorways and dual carriageways, make the left-hand lane super smooth and near-silent and the right-hand lane rough and noisy, with intermediate lanes erring on the rough & noisy side.
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On the other hand, there's nothing more irritating that being in the left hand lane, seeing a slower vehicle in front of you, and then have arrogant drivers in the middle lane refuse to let you in, even though you've been sitting there with your indicator flashing. End solution is unfortunately to just "drift" across and hope they make room for you or to never leave the middle lane.
On busy motorways where lanes 2 + 3 are moving at roughly similar speeds, I see little point in leapfrogging in and out of the left hand lane. This really applies to my point above, as on a motorway that's not so busy you can plan ahead and judge where various vehicles will be and get in the correct lane with plenty of time to spare.
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David: My irritation is not with people who stay in lane 2 rather than move to lane 1 for 10 seconds and then move out to overtake. Your scenario is in effect using lane 2 to overtake lane 1 cars. That's fine. My problem is with those who stay in lane 2 even when lane 1 is empty as far as you can see. I've been on empty 2 lane motorways and sat a safe distance behind a person in lane 2, waiting for them to wake up and move left. I've been in situations where it is impossible to safely get into lane 3 to overtake a lane 2 hog - lane 3 cars nbeing driven aggressively and nose to tail - and decided to undertake despite the risk. It's lazy selfish unobservant driving.
Leif.
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Leif, I know exactly what you mean.
In the last 6 months I've started undertaking people too. Naughty I know (and dangerous) but I get so fed up have to drive for other people. Having to go across 3 lanes to go past someone just seems riduclous and when there's a fair bit of traffic about often takes some time to actually get out into the 'fast lane'.
The other thing I've noticed is that if I'm in the inside lane and have overtaken a middle-laner, they seem to want to over take me as soon as I've passed them - they then realise that they are going faster than they want to and slow down again - often forcing me to over take them for a second time!!! Is this just me this happens to?
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I agree with what you say Chris, but if you get spotted by the Police undertaking, I am sure they will do you and not the middle lane hogger.
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I tend to hang around in lane 2. Lane 1 tends to have ruts from trucks, occasional debris, people exiting and entering the motorway, cars coming off and going on to the hard shoulder etc. etc.
And whilst I agree it is silly to stay in lane 2 without reason, I also find it toally idiotic when on an empty motorway, I can be in lane 2. I see a car coming from 1 mile away, as he sees me. But he will drive right up my tail and then flash me to pull in. Plonkers. Why right up to my tail, and why didn't he move into lane 3 ? We're the only two there and lane one is bumpy.
However, of the silly drivers that I know, they've all got one thing going for them - they migh tbe short and hate it, feel ineffectual, not be all that bright, frustrated with the opposite sex etc. etc. - you can laugh, but I don't think I've ever met a presentable, together, self-confident guy who was a pig in a car. And I don't mean flash, arrogant, conceited gits who think they're together - I just mean an ordinary, pleasant chap.
Worryingly is that more and more often it seems to be females under the age of 25 who are most often the agressive risk-takers on the motorways. - I'm guessing 25 because frankly they all look about 12 to me these days.
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Hmm... another pet motorway hate - why, if I pull out to overtake someone who's been sitting in the middle lane at 70mph feel the need to accelerate to 85mph as I try to pass them?
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After years of sitting behind people in lane 2 waiting and waiting and waiting for them to move over, I have decided I will wait no more. I now do what the French/German/Dutch et al do - flash the headlights until they move over. If I have to flash more than three times, a quick blast on the horn usually wakes them up.
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On the other hand, there's nothing more irritating that being in the left hand lane, seeing a slower vehicle in front of you, and then have arrogant drivers in the middle lane refuse to let you in, even though you've been sitting there with your indicator flashing. End solution is unfortunately to just "drift" across and hope they make room for you or to never leave the middle lane.
I totally agree with the sentiment of your post if not your "end solution" I don't regard it as an acceptable risk, to me, to HOPE another driver does anything.
I find that on busy, but not totally clogged up Motorways, Lane 2 & 3 are roughly going the same speed and Lane 1 is empty barring the usual HGVs etc. Provided these are not too close together I find and it is just personal preference, to drive in Lane 1, at a speed matching Lane 2 which has the benefits of a clear road ahead and behind you as well as, in the hard shoulder, an escape route should anything untoward happen in front. Of course you will end up approaching the slower moving vehicle ahead and obviously it's important you make any move into Lane 2 before having to slow down for that vehicle and making any following move much more dangerous.
I think the "body language" of your vehicle can make a huge difference to how your intentions are perceived a sideways movement of 12 inches can make your intentions quite clear without putting you in a conflicting course with another vehicle, along with the usual signal I hasten to add.
An indicator left on for any length of time becomes meaningless as people presume rightly or wrongly it has been left on in error. If the indication is cancelled and re-applied the intention becomes clear.
Of course you will get the occasional middlelane monster who will resolutely refuse to let you out no matter what they're related to the middle lane hog. As my dear old Mum said life isn't fair!
Can I add people who pull out from the hard shoulder into Lane 1 from stationary rather than accelerate on the hard shoulder then pull out!! I think the mindset it "I musn't drive on the Hard Shoulder"
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Well Mark RBLS, I don't know which motorways you travel on but the ones I go on (which is a hell of a lot) never have worse debris or road surface than the two overtaking lanes. Are you sure you're not driving on the hard shoulder?
Poor excuse. I'm driving on an empty motorway in lane one and see you in lane two ahead...are you going to move over? Do I have to prepare to go across all the lanes into lane 3? I don't know that you have seen me. The fact that the other driver went right up to you suggests that you didn't pull over to let him/her pass suggests selfish driving. Now, I never go right upto the Middle Lane Owners Club member but as you see, many do so surely it's better to be more conciderate to other road users?
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Stonk,
M1, M3, M4, M5, M11, M25, M27, M40, M42, M6.
Why ? does it matter ? And if you haven't noticed the ruts that trucks leave after a period of time, nor have you noticed the odd bit of broken tyre, then I would suggest you have bigger problems than worrying about what any other driver is doing.
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On the other hand, there's nothing more irritating that being in the left hand lane, seeing a slower vehicle in front of you, and then have arrogant drivers in the middle lane refuse to let you in, even though you've been sitting there with your indicator flashing. End solution is unfortunately to just "drift" across and hope they make room for you or to never leave the middle lane.
You should not be indicating if you can't move into a lane, it isn't the responsibility of the other driver to move for you. You should estimate how quickly other cars are traveling and be able to pull out at the correct time.
The same goes when your on a slip road joining a motorway, for some reason some people expect other to change lanes to allow them to join.
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"You should not be indicating if you can't move into a lane, it isn't the responsibility of the other driver to move for you. You should estimate how quickly other cars are traveling and be able to pull out at the correct time.
The same goes when your on a slip road joining a motorway, for some reason some people expect other to change lanes to allow them to join."
Not sure I agree with this. On a busy middle lane it could mean that vehicles indicate and zip in without giving others warning. I would hang back to let in the 'indicator' so they don't cause me concern that they will make a startling move.
As for vehicles joining the motorway from a slip road people do expect other vehicles to move over providing it's clear for them to do so...safer for bth parties. In France they tend not to and it causes the joining vehicle to brake to an almost standstill and them pull in to fast moving traffic causing everyone to brake.
What is correct by the book doesn't mean it's best in practice.
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Regarding vehicles waiting to come onto the motorway, they MUST give way to vehicles already on the motorway. I've seen too many near accidents due to cars joining the motorway forcing their way on as if they had a right to do so. However, a considerate driver would try and move to lane 2, or create space for cars to join.
I sometimes use the indicator as a request for someone to allow me to move right. They are not obliged to though.
Leif
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"vehicles waiting to come onto the motorway, they MUST give way to vehicles already on the motorway."
And the "Give way" signs make this clear. However, I would say that most people enter a motorway as if they have the right of way and that those already on the M'way should give way.
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I've never wanted to test it with an 18 wheeler trying to join next to me.
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I thought that the highway code in this country, and the law of the land said that we drive on the left. In which case, using the middle lane of a motorway when the left lane is clear is not adhering to the law.
I also thought that it made more sense to move over a lane when necessary, and safe, than to insist that it's my right of way, even if I have to force you to stop at the bottom of the slip road.
The main safety procedure on a motorway, and any other road, is to be aware of what is happening all around you and be ready to react to protect both your own vehicle and others as necessary.
To insist that "it's my right of way" and endanger both yourselves and others is childish and potentially dangerous.
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A number of other countries suspend the law of 'keep left' or 'keep right' on multi-lane motorways. They don't seem to have vastly more accidents than the UK. I don't have problems with people 'under-taking', after all the lanes are marked. Most cars have mirrors on both sides, so just keep an eye out. If the UK abolished the 'only pass on the right side' rule for motorways and dual carriageways it would allow the traffic to flow more freely and bring everyone's blood pressure down. I'm sure I'll be flamed for it, but really, there are some silly rules in the UK.
Oh, and yes, I lived there for some years, drove all over, including Europe on business.
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I heard rumours that the great and the good who agree the Highway Code were considering allowing undertaking on motorways, but for some reason decided against it. The idea certainly has some support.
Leif
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"To insist that "it's my right of way" and endanger both yourselves and others is childish and potentially dangerous."
I hope I was not implying that.
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Lots of points of view here, most with plenty of validity.
I do despise drivers who hog the middle lane, and I often find that undertaking them brings them to their senses. When they finally wake up and realise someone's gone past on the left, they usually move over to the left hand lane. As someone said, mirrors on both sides these days so there isn't too much extra danger. Besides, the people who are so lazy they sit in the middle lane all day long probably aren't very likely to look over their right shoulder either, so it's probably much of a muchness risk-wise - whichever side you pass them on.
Agree with Mark that when the motorways are empty in the dead of night it hardly matters which lane you drive in. I normally gravitate towards to the inside of the curve, foolishly thinking that I save time and resources by taking a shorter route (it's comforting in my head and feels natural at the time!)
Not so sure about the bumps and debris though Mark, they aren't that bad so as to make a difference to where I drive.
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Re " thought that the highway code in this country, and the law of the land said that we drive on the left."
read a few advanced driving books, the idea is to drive in the safest way possible, not dogmatically to some rules you clearly dont fully understand
on an empty road (as far as you can see) it is often safer to drive in the right hand side of the road approaching a blind left corner, so that you can see further ahead and whats coming towards you, you can easily pull back into the left well in time if the road you can see is clear, driving round on the left hand side is not an advanced driving technique, its what people who understand nothing but the basic driving test do - and more of them die, drriving like this is legal and encouraged if you have a clue what you are doing
on a motorway the left hand lane will often be rutted, have spilt oil on it, have debris on it, etc etc, often the drivers you are complaining about are better drivers than you because even for marginal extra grip is will be better to drive in the middle lane for safety, mindlessly driving in the inside lane when it is not the safest choice is again the wrong thing to do, but most uk drivers have never been taught to drive on motorways properly
really people you should understand what best practise is a whole lot better before you slag off other drivers
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actually i dont think there is a formal "only pass on the right side" law in the uk, its just convention, anything the highway code says is just advisory and can be considered as part of driving without due care or similar, but there is no offence of "overtaking on the left on a motorway" you can be charged with
in fact in many instances passing on the left is encouraged, if you are pulling off and the people going striaght on are in slow moving traffic etc
remember we have next to no decent traffic cops out there, the only enforcement is cameras, considering all things its amazing how well we all drive here
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anything the highway code says is just advisory and can be considered as part of driving without due care or similar
If the highway code says "You must" then it's traffic law, not just advisory.
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On an empty motorway it makes little difference which lane you are in, so I guess rtaylor may be right in those circumstances.
However, a few years ago I was driving up the M1 (I think) late at night and moved into the middle lane to pass 2 lorries, with a large gap in the middle. I didn't pull back in between them - I knew I was going to pass the second lorry shortly. The only other visible vehicle on the road approached from behind and flashed me to move to the left lane.
That is the only time I have ever been ordered to do anything by the police in the UK (I was stopped by the Italian police last year, but that's a different story).
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thankfully the police dont pass the laws here, they did not charge you did they, if the inside lane was clear clean and safe they may have been right, but its normally a finely balanced decision if there is any impairment of the surface on the inside lane, as i would expect any decent traffic cop to know
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I must admit that I've never seen more debris or ruts in lane 1 than elsewhere (M4, M40, M3, M5, M25, M27).
According to the Highway Code you should keep left, and undertaking is only recommended in a few circumstances such as slow moving traffic queues, and traffic waiting to turn right.
I was taught to move right when going round tight corners to improve visibility, but I no longer do that after I nearly winged a high speed motorbike. I prefer to reduce my speed instead.
Leif
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>>read a few advanced driving books, the idea is to drive in the safest way possible, not dogmatically to some rules you clearly dont fully understand
Most patronising post of the day award?
In my experience, people who stay in the middle lane are as likely to be not paying attention as be "better drivers"
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"Most patronising post of the day award?"
Yes, and maybe of the year so far.
I could read all the books in the world and still be a crap driver. I read a book on Isambard Kingdom Brunel and how he built great bridges... doesn't mean I can!
As for the debris on the inside lane, it'd be interesting to get some of the views of the BRs who do high mileage and see what they make of it.
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rtaylor, One of the major aids to staying safe on the road is observation. The title of this thread is "Lazy motorway lane hoggers". If you had observed this then you would not have posted about driving on the right on an empty road approaching a blind left hand bend and easily pulling back in if,as implied, something is coming.
For a period of about 13 years, up until recently, I used to cover 50000+ miles per year, all weathers, all conditions, all types of road. In that time, to be honest, I never normally found the left hand lane to be in the conditions described by several posts on here. Tyre debris, usually from hgv's doesn't tend to stay in the left hand lane only.
The position chosen by any driver, on any type of road, should be the one which maximises both their own, and other "local" road users safety.
If you chose, for your own, and others, safety, that the middle lane is safer, under the prevailing conditions, then that is your choice. If an incident happens then you have to give your reasons for your choice.
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I thought that the highway code in this country, and the law of the land said that we drive on the left.
IIRC, highway Code yes. but law of the land no.
The only requirement is to pass on the right, nowhere in legislation does it say that you must drive on the left.
"Ducks below parapet, looking around for return fire"
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