Just recently I seem to have run a couple of red lights. The reason was that I had the whole family in the car and there did not seem to be enough time to bring the car to a standstill safely without skidding or throwing them all into their seatbelts in the time allowed for the amber light.
I'm speaking of a 40mph or 50mph zone not a 30mph.
Is there a fixed time for the amber light irrespective of the maximum permitted speed of the road, and if so, shouldn't the time be varied to permit a safe and smooth deceleration?
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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My view on this is ask yourself this question.
When approaching a green light what is the only thing that could can happen?
Yes it will change to red!
Approach any traffic light with the view that it will change as you approach it and just 'cos it's in a 50mph zone doesn't mean this is the speed you should travel towards it at. Expect it to change!!
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My view on this is ask yourself this question.
Why aren't the lights timed to allow someone travelling at a legal speed sufficient time to come to a stop without wondering if the ABS is going to wake-up?
Kevin...
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Traffic signal technolgy is keeping up with vehicle technology, but it is being used against the motorist rather than for the common good. Traffic lights are becoming as stupid and archaic as men waving red flags.
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A legal speed is not nescessarally a safe speed, just as an illegal speed is not always a dangerous speed. You slow down for bends, you slow down for horses, so why not slow down when approaching crossroads, light controlled or not?
If you argue that you cannot stop safetly from the speed limit for traffic lights, I have no doubt what the local authorities solution would be!
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Tom,
forget the safe-speed/legal-speed distraction and tell me why traffic lights can't be timed correctly.
>f you argue that you cannot stop safetly from the speed limit for traffic lights, I have no doubt what the local authorities solution would be!
This is EXACTLY the point we are trying to make.
Kevin...
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Agree with you on traffic lights timing Kevin, and the overlong all red phases seem to be the norm now. I don't know if there is a set time for the amber phase to be on or if LA's are free to muck about with them or not. Disgraceful if they have, I admit.
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Does anyone agree with me that the increasing tendency to jump amber and red lights (it's only been red for a few seonds...) is primarily due to the inordinately long time some red lights stay for?
If we felt the wait would be reasonable, then we might take it more gently on the approach and accept the stop.
Principal offenders in my experience are the northbound off-slip at junction 9 of the M40 and turning right from the A40 to the A412 at Denham.
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A while back, a red light camera flashed me on amber. Before you go telling me how impossible that is, don't. It did. Being the sad person that I am, I timed the amber building my case up already! (I had crossed the stop line on green).
For a dual carriageway, with a 70mph speed limit, and a camera protected traffic light junction, the amber phase lasts for...wait for it...
....2.7 seconds - give or take my slow motor reflexes.
Let's say 3 seconds - is that really long enough for such a quick road. I know someone will say "slow down" but for a start, people tend to get a little annoyed when you do that at 70 and secondly, that's often worse as when the lights change, you're still to quick to stop but too slow to beat the lights!
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Adam
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once again the people designing our roads and their environs should be prosecuted not the motorist
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Are local authorities required to do some sort of risk analysis for these sorts of things, and would we be entitled to see them under our much vaunted Freedom of Information Act ?
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What a fantastic idea! I wouldn't mind cameras on every single light then. But of course, that makes way too much sense for it ever to be implemented here.
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Adam
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Ditto in Brazil, Chile, Argentina.
There is some temptation for people to try and race when the light is about to go red meaning that when they do go through them, they tend to go through at some speed;
there is also a tendency for people to approach the countdown to green like drag lights - thus ensuring that they launch themselves into the path of the person coming the other way racing to beat the red !
- but overall it seems to be an effective approach.
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They also have countdowns on lights in Kuala Lumpur and Georgetown, Penang for both traffic and pedestrians. They seem to allow pedestrians just 10 seconds to cross six lanes of carriageway and it isn't that long!! Dublin also has countdowns on some pedstrian crossings.
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They won't put countdowns on lights in this country. It would be a public admission of how long lights stay on red for.
Yes I know you could time it yourself but most of us don't
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I take the view that phasing has changed because so many people blatantly jump the lights so a safety margin is added. Of course to those of us who don't do that it all seems OTT until one day our car is written off by some moron who didn't want to wait at his red light. For the most part, as always, the majority of us suffer due to the actions of the minority who just couldn't care less.
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I would be happy to see lights change directly from red to green, without the red/amber phase (as in France for example). Thus removing the possibility of traffic starting off before the green light.
I agree that in many cases the amber phase is much too short. At the set of lights on a T junction close to home if you are coming up the upright of the T to turn right and too close to stop when the amber comes up, there is barely time to complete the turn before the other lights are green.
I haven't tried it on a bicycle, but you would probably make it in Tour de France mode, an elderly or unfit cyclist would stand no chance and would get T-boned every time.
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It's best never to approach traffic lights at more than 30 mph. Then there's always time to stop. In fact it would be a good idea if all traffic light junctions and roundabouts were protected by mini 30 mph zones. They do this in France (with a kph equivalent). Certainly the Highway Code should include such advice.
cheers, SS
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But what about my problem? A very quick 70 road. Note I say very quick...that's on top of 70 (them not me). Surely you can't slow down that much>?
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Adam
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I must admit I was expecting a backlash of people saying that I should slow down, but it is interesting how many people seem to have suffered similar experiences to me.
If I'm on my own, I wil happily mash the brake pedal into the floor and come to a stop, especially as I have a tow bar on my car. It is small, light and has excllent brakes. However, my wifes Trajet diesel auto is much bigger, heavier and consequently has less responsive brakes. If I mash the pedal in that all five of us suffer and there is no guarantee we will not go over the line - that is why I have run the lights - just.
Surely on a faster than 30mph road, the amber should stay on for longer, giving the driver of an average car at the speed limit a reasonable amount of time to stop safely without mashing hs nose into the windscreen?
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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On dual carriageways upcoming traffic lights are nearly always signed - and if they're not, they are visible from quite some distance away. I'm sure it mentions in the highway code that you should always approach a traffic light expecting it to turn red. Problem solved.
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A couple of things. Firstly, that isn't problem solved at all. That's exactly what the problem is. If you approach the light expecting it to turn red, then you would have to be going sub 30 to do anything of any use.
Also, (and I'm not trying to come up with problems) but there isn't a sign (which isn't really the issue) and you can't really see them for ages but again, not the point.
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Adam
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Has anyone else noticed that lights turning amber on you whilst in the "indecision zone" always seems to happen in 'batches'. ie does'nt happen for weeks then a few times in close sucession.
The only conclusion I can come to (other than a major conspiracy, or software problems ) is that maybe my biorythyms are hitting a low and my judgement is impaired. I suppose the opposite could be true, my powers of observation are ehanced at these times, altho if this was the case I think a passenger would have commented on some occassion.
The only solution is to remain at home or walk to the pub!
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pmh (was peter)
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>>But what about my problem? A very quick 70 road. Note I say very quick...that's on top of 70 (them not me). Surely you can't slow down that much>?
I see the problem, but slowing down and being hooted by other drivers is less bad than not being able to stop for a red, especially if someone in the crossing traffic jumps the red and amber! I'm trying to think of examples of open-road traffic lights without specific speed limits. Apart from light-controlled roundabouts at motorway / trunk interchanges, I can think of two within 50 zones but none on 60 / 70 stretches. There must be some, but I can't recall any.
cheers, SS
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Thinking that myself, I can't think of any roads I know with traffic lights and 70mph limits.
AFAIK, 70 limits are strictly for motorways and dual carriageways. I would have thought if there were traffic lights then they would be protected by a lower speed around the junction?
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The road in question is the East Lancashire Road and it littered with loads of traffic light junctions. A lot have cameras near the Manchster but but the Liverpool side thankfully don't.
I'm detecting a hint of scepticism ;-) - I'm sure Borasport will back me up....hopefully.
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Adam
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Not doubting it Adski, just wasn't aware of any myself!
Of course, if they put 50mph limits in place at the lights with speed cameras, then we would all be up in arms about revenue earners!
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No no Bobby I know you weren't. It was just in case anyone was that interested which more than likely, they won't be! All this could be solved with longer amber periods. Is that too much to ask?
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Adam
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A12 Eastern Avenue junction with Whalebone Lane near Romford is (or was up to 3 years ago) 70mph at a very busy traffic light junction. Could be a bit buttock tensing on approach, as it has a camera and there is generally someone hitching a ride on your bumper. I always used to approach it in the inside lane with all the other wimps, leaving the BMW's and Transits to do their brake tests on the outside lane.
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Oxford bypass, outside the BMW/ROver/Mini factory. NSL and a major traffic light controlled junction.
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"Oxford bypass, outside the BMW/ROver/Mini factory. NSL and a major traffic light controlled junction."
Shoreham Flyover, West Sussex...ditto above!
You can see the lights from a distance, however, slowing down to 30mph or so just in case the lights turn amber/red as you approach would probably result in you being rear ended by some idiot trying to break the sound barrier in his Jaguar.
When on holiday in Florida, I seem to recall a large junction having a warning light that was positioned on the approach to the traffic lights. It came on a few seconds before the lights changed thus warning you of the imminent red light so you could start slowing down. It takes the 'surprise' out of approaching fast junctions.
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If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished
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Jeez,
I'm amazed that some folks here can't see the problem with short and inconsistent light sequences. Lights turning red should be at amber for sufficient time to allow a well maintained vehicle, travelling at the posted speed limit in good conditions, to stop smoothly and safely within that time. It ain't rocket science, it's commonsense.
By turning it into a guessing game, traffic engineers have created a situation where drivers react unpredictably and sometimes dangerously. Eg. Brake hard and hope that the driver behind is on-the-ball or boot it and chance going through on red.
Traffic signals were originally intended to improve traffic flow and safety. I have my doubts that this is now true in every case.
It would be interesting to see how many traffic lights have an amber period consistent with the stopping distances published in the Highway Code.
Kevin...
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It would be interesting to see how many traffic lights have an amber period consistent with the stopping distances published in the Highway Code.
You beat me to it!
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"a major conspiracy"
The words nail, head and hit come to mind.
Traffic lights are no longer a safety feature, but designed to slow and disrupt traffic flows as much as possible to encourage you to use public transport (which is also slowed and disrupted of course). Otherwise how on earth can you explain the multiple places where there are traffic lights on roundabouts which operate even in the middle of the night when there is virtually no traffic. I can think of atleast half a dozen examples within 10 miles of me in rural Leics.
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The French have a system in which some traffic lights are switched off overnight, but there is a single light over the junction warning you to take care.
Didn't Ken Livingstone increase the delay on red lights so as to increase congestion and justify his charge?
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One might expect the amber light time to be at least the safe stopping time (SST) from the limit, i.e., that time corresponding to the safe stopping distance published in the highway code.
However,
"AMBER means 'Stop' at the stopline. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident"
--- Highway Code, "Light Signals controlling traffic"
As the possibility of pulling up causing an accident is admitted, amber lights must generally be timed for shorter than the SST.
In the case where a red light camera operates the abmer light time must certainly be shorter than the SST, otherwise no revenue would be generated.
Of course the real cash cow must be a right turn with box junction camera and red light camera.
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At the crossroads where the A4135 and the A46 cross there are traffic lights. Approaching them from either direction on the A46, a trunk road, there is a localised speed limit of 50mph. The road is generally 60mph. Approaching them from either direction on the A4135 there is the national speed limit(60mph).
I use this crossroads using the A4135 twice daily. The lights are quite well set up and react to the volume of traffic on each road very well. Approaching them going towards Tetbury the visibility is very good. The road is fairly straight and if the traffic away from Tetbury is heavy then the green is on for a "long" time. There are obviously many factors to be aware of approaching lights including people turning right. I am waiting for someone travelling towards Tetbury to take these lights at 60mph, on green, and then realise that the apparantly straight crossover has a nasty kink in it. There is a handy wall to stop them! This crossroads needs the same speed protection on all approaches. I think amber timing should be tied to the legal speed allied to the road, and in this case, the legal speed should be suitable as well.
If anyone is trying to find the site on the map, the junction is in Gloucestershire, the A46 is between Stroud and Bath and the A4135 between Tetbury and Dursley.
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