Ok, since you all seem to be agreeing with each other...
I have to confess that, in certain situations I *do* get narked when other people nick 'my' space. I know full well I have no legal right to it, but when neighbours leave their own driveways free (I'm one of the few not to have one of these) and park outside my place I just don't see the point. (We have two sets of neighbours who regularly do this, nobody else). Recently a family with ample drive space, plus room outside their driveway, left one of their cars outside my house for literally several weeks without moving it, and I have no idea why. There's so very little on-road parking available here, if I can't park outside the house I usually end up miles away, so it would be much more helpful if people with drives actually used them.
To me it's a courtesy matter. For example, the guy opposite me always parks his van in a certain place outside his home, and I would never, ever dream of parking in that space. I consider that 'his' space.
Having said this, I would never complain about it to anyone, because as I said I realise it is not really 'my' space. Just have a little mutter under my breath to myself about it. I think actually the neighbours that do it are just anti-social people anyway. For example one of the families every week leaves their scores of bin bags outside my property rather than their own, the other completely snubs me unless they want a favour.
Oh well, 'tis life I suppose.
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I too have had these problems when I used to live in a city. Getting home late after working shift, you used to spend upto 10 minutes driving around looking for a space. One resident always coned off the front of his house. I just used to remove the cones and park there if there were no other available spaces - nowt he could do about it, he was a bit of a Victor Meldrew type. I think one of the cones eventually got run over and squashed much to my amusement.
Where do these people get the cones from?
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"Where do these people get the cones from?"
Around here, they're on permanent loan from the Metropolitan Police. I'm confident they've asked the Commissioner's permission.
"Do you think you own the lane?" to which I replied "yes" and presented a copy of the deeds and land registry entries.....
Ha, Ha! A classic, No Dosh!
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I'm glad that most of the posters here refer to 'my' space in quotes. Let's not lose sight of
- the public road is for public movement and must not be unreasonably obstructed (and I suppose that includes all entrances to private properties);
- as such none of it can be 'owned' by residents of the road (except under special circumstances, e.g. covenants);
- anyone who owns a large movable object requiring about 8 sq.m. of ground space should keep it off the public road. That is their problem, and there is no right to make it into a public problem. Unfortunately there is an established precedent of concessionary parking which has become an expected right.
I can say all this as I am lucky enough to be able to park 4 cars off road. :-)
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>>Where do these people get the cones from?
Brighton Promenade, I believe.
Glad there's a little sympathy for 'the opposing opinion' too. :)
HF
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I live in a cul-de-sac which is T-shaped and the door to my house is actually on the side of the house, at the meeting point of the stem and top-bar of the T . My step is on the pavement, which is actually the start of my drive. It really narks me when people visiting my neighbours park right outside my door because there car is about 18 inches from my door. Also, they are blocking access to my drive. How annoying do you think that is?
My solution is to park my car bumper to bumper with theirs, therefore trapping them between my garden gates and my car. I then ignore the knocks at the front door for about 1/2 hour.
They only seem to make this 'mistake' once. I did try the neighbourly approach at first, of knocking and asking for vehicles to be moved, but this didn't work.
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We have a real issue with this at our company house. Basically a number of us work remotely and come into the office for a few days each week. To save on hotel costs the company rented a house for anyone visiting the office to stay in when required. We have a drive for 2 cars but on occasion there are five of us and hence 5 cars. We can't really leave some of the cars at the office as the car park is not secure so this means we have to park 5 cars at the house.
One person across the road, if we park alongside the house (not in front) will park his car bumper to bumper (literally touching the car) with any of ours which just seems a bit petty. He's never come over and asked us to move or anything like that nor are we blocking his drive. I hope that he never misjudges it and damages any of the cars or it could be a tricky one. The irony of it all is that he has space for two cars on his drive, and a garage yet still parks on the road!
I don't really understand this territorial nature over the road, fair enough if it blocks people in and causes inconvenience but isn't the road for anyone to use?
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Leigh1 - I guess you wouldn't understand the territorial nature at that house - you don't actually "live" there. It's a different kettle of fish when it's your own HOME, and it's your own money which has bought it. I doubt you'd be particularly delighted to see your own street cluttered with almost half a dozen cars belonging to people who don't even actually live there.
Regardless of whether he has space for his own cars, people still understandably get fed up with the look of a street being ruined by an over-presence of cars. As I've said in an earlier reply - this is precisely what caused me to lose the sale of my house, at great expense to me, and with a massive amount of accompanying stress.
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Well, maybe I don't understand it at that house but where I live I have a drive, which I use and cars park all around it. This is particularly the case when there is a kids football match at the school behind me when the street is literally littered with cars for the morning. As far as I am concerned as long as I am not prevented from entering/leaving my drive then it is just life and I get on with it.
I understand your predicament and am sorry that it cost you the sale of the house. However I was just trying to point out it is a real problem for all sorts of reasons and that hopefully people don't damage car as a result of these issues.
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>>It's a differentkettle of fish when it's your own HOME, and it's your own money which has bought it.
That would really only apply if when purchasing your home, you purchased the bit of road in front of it too.
I doubt you'd be particularlydelighted to see your own street cluttered with almost half a dozen cars belonging to people who don't even actually live there.
What cars the neighbours drive/don't drive are of no interest to me.
Regardless of whether he has space for his own cars, people still understandably get fed up with the look of a street being ruined by an over-presence of cars. As I've said in an earlier reply - this is precisely what caused me to lose the sale of my house, at great expense to me, and with a massive amount of accompanying stress.
As for losing the sale of the house due to all the cars in the road, surely it's down more to your prospective buyer deciding that 'type' of area wasn't for him/her? Many of the most sort after (and therefore most expensive) areas where I live are roads of terraced victorian houses where you can't park for love nor money...
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It's been mentioned before but may be worth mentioning again. Yellow lines aside, there is no legal means of preventing somebody parking across a private driveway provided that in doing so you do not prevent a vehicle on that driveway from exiting on to the highway. It is perfectly permissible to block it when it is empty.
So if you have a neighbour with a drive who insists on parking on the road, park across their drive and when the inevitable confrontation occurs make the legal and moral issues all to clear to them. At this point it may be worth pointing out to them that you will have a camera trained on your car until the situation is resolved.
A bit of a nuclear option, but remarkably effective.
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Not with you here, ND. How is it OK to block a resident out of his drive, but not in it? Or have I misunderstood?
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Didn't say it was morally right, just a little quirk of our antiquated laws. This one came up in conversation with a police friend of mine when I used to have this very problem at my last house. Was constantly finding I couldn't get into my drive but there was naff-all they could do about it.
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A possible solution to this, and other, neighbourhood problems - one we have found very effective both in our last house, and where we now live - is a street party. (Don't all groan!)
Each summer one of us (there are 15 houses in our street) hosts the party. All the people in odd-numbered houses bring a savoury dish, and even-numbered a sweet dish. Everyone brings their own crockery, cutlery and chairs and a contribution to drinks. We collectively hire a bouncy castle for the children. Given some reasonable weather it is extraordinary how everyone gets on, even though the people living here are very different, and the age difference is great. I believe that if people know each other they are actually much more considerate when it comes to doing something which might impinge on their neighbours.
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No groaning, topaktas. I throw a themed party each midsummer weekend for my friends, and invite all my neighbours. they all come, bar the ones who's friends think it's fine to park 18 inches from my front door.
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Couldn't agree more. Have done the same thing these last two summers and have already made provisional plans for this year. Goes down a treat and keeps everyone on good terms.
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What is the legal position re street parties? Even if all the residents in a road agree to hold the party, and block the road with tables and bouncy castles, surely that is still blocking it for other lawful users?
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Can't help you with this, I'm afraid. We hold ours in the garden of one of the houses (see earlier posting).
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The problems with parking was one of the major reasons for us moving last year.After 26 years our nice road in a prosperous neighbourhood had become a nightmare rat run with parking a problem because everyone aged from seventeen upwards had cars, work van's etc and wanted to park directly in front of their house.
We were directly opposite a church which had car parking but Saturday Wedding parkers and Sunday worshippers caused problems.
Twice my wifes car was damaged by churchgoers , once was admitted to but one time was not resulting in loss of NCD.
It did cause problems with my next door neighbour when I looked after a friends car when they went on holiday. I parked it in his 'spot'outside his house because I knew he was away on holiday also.
Even though he was away his wife had not been and she had told him wherupon he wanted to know all about why I had parked a car in 'his' spot! Amazing.He used to regularly swear at churchgoers if they parked outside his house and would park his transit van to try and block them.
I now have room for one car in the garage and four in the front on my own land.
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Oh - and a landing pad in the garden :} !
That really annoys the neighbours - gets rid of the leaves though.
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You can apply for a license from the council.
hold mine in my garden but it is a party for the whole street.
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A colleague at work had a similair problem and all attempt to rectify it led to invictive and all sorts of threats from the people who blocked him in when they used the road outside his house to park to avoide car parking charges.
All sorted now thanks to a set of sharp ceramic tile cutters apparantly they cut tyre valves well. Not just a case of re-inflating the tyre a case of wheels off (all 4) and a Taxi ride to the nearest Kwik fit.
Funny thing is he's had no problem since.Very illegal and dangerous activity if caught however having explored all possibilities this is the only action that has worked.Much like blocking someone in i expect.
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Sound like your neighbour is a relative of the guy who lives next door to me.
We both have a drive that is big enough for 3 cars. We both have 1 car. I always put mine in the drive and he only does so at night.
We live near the local railway station and occasionally someone parks in the street to avoid the car park fee. If it is outside his house for more than an afternoon all 4 tyres are let down when it gets dark.
He does have the good grace to enquire as to whether or not the car belongs to a visitor but he is a pit bull in human form when it comes to territory
as always
Mark
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This thread sounds like good evidence for the merits of the Japanese rule I read about somewhere, that you can't register a car unless you can prove that you have an off-road parking space for it
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NoW - on the assumption that perceived trends will continue, I imagine that the Japanese rule will have to be introduced here soon. But that will require a pretty severe change of mindset all round.
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One thing to insist that you have a parking space, another entirely to enforce people's use of the space.
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Also, it would again be another measure that would force less well off people off the roads. Those that couldn't afford a driveway couldn't have a car?
I agree with the principle, but in practice it would be awfully harsh for those who struggle just to keep a car on the road. (or off the road, as this topic suggests ;)
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When I read the words "street part" I thought that sounded a really good idea - get everybody involved in a sort of communal blocking in/out, and then there is a chance that with real human contact commonsense and give and take might be induced.
But I was misled by the juxtaposition of the words "street" and "party" into thinking this meant a "street part", ie a sort of Jubilee celebratiuon with long tables, streamers, banners, brass band etc taking over the street for people not cars.
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The environmental argument is just that though. Price people off the roads then they use more environmentally friendly transport. If cars weren't so cheap there wouldn't be so many people with them. Which is why we have the problem with parking now. As far as history goes cars are toys for the well off and the peasants shouldn't be driving :-) I think public transport has to be improved an awful lot more and more people should be allowed to work from home before something like the Japanese rule was introduced.
Perhaps someone should design a car that folds and fits through an average front door and can be stored under the stairs!
teabelly
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>>As far as history goes cars are toys for the well off and the peasants shouldn't be driving :-)
And if we had a law like this then it wouldn't only be history, it would be the future too!
I totally agree that more improvement in public transport is needed, as well as a huge increase in working from home - but at the same time, is it not a huge step back to say that the rich may drive cars but the poor may not?
Believe me, there are poor people about who *need* cars just to go about their daily business. What about disabled poor people, for example, or elderly poor people, who can't walk to the bus stop but can just about make it to their car. Aside from having a bus stop outside every house, shop and whatever else in the land, I don't see how this would work for them.
I like the idea of the fold-up car though ;)
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Also, it would again be another measure that would force less well off people off the roads. Those that couldn't afford a driveway couldn't have a car? I agree with the principle, but in practice it would be awfully harsh for those who struggle just to keep a car on the road. (or off the road, as this topic suggests ;)
It may not have to be a driveway. When you consider the current amount of on-street parking it wouldn't be unreasonable for the local authorities to designate on-street spaces and issue appropriate permits to specific properties, coupled with clearly marked parking bays. That way every house gets one parking space. If you have off-road parking, you forfeit the right to an on-road space, which can then be considered as "guest" parking. Those that need a commercial vehicle for their business would need to rent a space for that purpose
Initially it would be total nightmare, but given the territorial nature demonstrated elsewhere in this thread, I suspect it would rapidly become self policing. Certainly if you combined it with fines and a parking offence hotline it wouldn't take long to get it under control.
As for the latter point, I understand your point, but there are many cars out there where no effort is made to keep them roadworthy. If this gets them out of circulation then it has to be a good thing.
The trouble is, all of the above would only work with an adequate road and public transport infrastructure. Who wants to bet that we get the stick, but the carrot remains firmly out of reach?
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>>If you have off-road parking, you forfeit the right to an on-road space
Really ?
So person 1 grows a lawn but doesn't have a car.
Person 2 decides to have a paved area.
Person 1 gets a free/nominated parking space & person 2 does not.
I can't see any unfairness or issues there at all.
Or you would insist that parking spaces are for car owners only ? So person 1 registers his mate's car in his name, even though he never drives it and still gets his free space.
Back to the drawing board with you, Mr. Brent.
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Who said anything to do with motoring in this country was fair? I long ago gave up the pretence that we live in a democracy.
The nominated spaces would only be issued to those who can provide proof that they (a) own a car and (b) have insured and taxed it (so proving it has an MOT).
For those about to purchase their first car there would need to be a process involving obtaining provisional allocation of a space pending satisfactory completion of the above within, say 28 days?
If someone has a multiple occupancy house they can apply for additional spaces, but if one isn't available, no car.
I'll be handing out the black shirts and overly-imperialistic uniforms to all that will vote for me.
[Does the David Brent dance]
You know it makes sense.....
The scary thing is, somewhere in Whitehall there's a think tank coming out with this sort of rubbish and putting it forward as policy.
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What a really superb idea ND.
Lets employ 1000s of extra traffic wardens, and inflict yet another round of fines on poor law abiding motorists.
Much better to employ these 1000s of extras looking after cars and stopping them from being stolen. Friend lost her Midget that she had had for 25 years last week. Devastated.
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What a really superb idea ND. Lets employ 1000s of extra traffic wardens, and inflict yet another round of fines on poor law abiding motorists.
I only wish it were my idea (then I could drown it in the Thames, where all the other rubbish seems to end up), but I've seen it mentioned so often in Cyberspace that it's only a matter of time before it becomes reality in one of our major cities.
Much better to employ these 1000s of extras looking after cars and stopping them from being stolen. Friend lost her Midget that she had had for 25 years last week. Devastated.
For a moment I had an image of a diminutive man-servant with an orange face, white overalls and a propensity for breaking into song rather than producing confectionary, but now see you are referring to an MG.
Unlike your late, beloved Merc, a car like that is likely to end up getting a moody respray and new identity here in the UK before being advertised in one of the collectors mags, rather than get broken for parts or exported. Feel free to post some details in a new thread; you never know, one of your fellow Backroomers may just spot it.
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Come on, people, this thread isn't about designing a police state or recruiting an army of wardens - it's about coming up with some way to make a choked traffic system work. As long as X individuals insist on owning and driving X cars (X is a large number), there simply isn't enough space available to do it. Imposing a Traffic Gestapo might work, I suppose, if enough people became too scared to drive?
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>>When you consider the current amount of on-street parking it wouldn't be unreasonable for the local authorities to designate on-street spaces and issue appropriate permits to specific properties, coupled with clearly marked parking bays
That already happens in a lot of streets round here. Trouble is, residents have to pay for their permits - which again will obviously be easier for some than others. Free parking would be different.
>>If you have off-road parking, you forfeit the right to an on-road space
Despite what I've said, I actually agree with Mark here. Why should those (rich or poor) who happen to have an off-road space have less rights than those who do?
>>there are many cars out there where no effort is made to keep them roadworthy. If this gets them out of circulation then it has to be a good thing.
Of course, agreed - but most of those would, I presume, also belong to the No Insurance, No Tax and No MOT Brigade? I'm talking about genuine law-abiding people who do what they can but don't want to be priced off the roads.
>>Who wants to bet that we get the stick, but the carrot remains firmly out of reach?
It's not obvious from the supermarkets, but plainly there's a huge carrot shortage in this country at the moment.
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I wouldn't trust the council to mark out suitable parking spaces on the road - free or otherwise. See Pologirls recent thread on what happened when her council decided it was time to mark some spaces:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=19956
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I'd recommend Yoby takes the lead on this and has a discussion about parking rules with all his neighbours - that "we all try to park with consideration to all and to use the space we have efficiently".
A bit like ND, my house is on a "shared" drive with 2 others and mine at the cul-de-sac end. The 2 other houses have parking for 2 cars each and additional vehicles have to go on the road. One neighbour used to park on the drive which made getting in and out very difficult, so I had to explain that the drive was part of my property and they have access provided they contributed to the upkeep and that did not include a right to park and obstruct it. The alternative that he offered was to park outside my house at the end of the cul de sac (where I turn the car round to drive rather than reverse out). Getting the other neighbour involved did help to defuse the situation and to cut a long story short, his third vehicle now stays on the road.....
Good luck, parking is the no 1 cause of neighbour disputes but sometimes good communication can nip it in the bud (unless your neighbour is a psycho - he may have kicked your car because he has lots of other problems and this happened to be the last straw on that day).
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Of course it would be hard on some people, HF, but if the roads are unusable because of parked cars, what other options are there?
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Of course it would be hard on some people, HF, but if the roads are unusable because of parked cars, what other options are there?
When I travel from the Pennines to visit my friends in South London, I am amazed to see just how many residential streets there are no longer capable of carrying two-way traffic because the carraigeway is mostly used to accommodate two rows of parked cars.
The obvious short-term solution to frustrating stand-offs is to create more one-way streets, but the postings in this thread demonstrate that for many people, the current parking regimes are not working.
I threw in to the discussion the Japanese no-space-no-reg rule, because it seemed like one answer to a problem which is causing a lot of grief to a lot of people -- very few folks seem happy with the current mess.
I'm sure that there could be other solutions (such as the other Japanese idea of favouring very small cars), but something is badly awry when so many people are experiencing so much frustration, and taking up so much time to find workarounds to the shortage of parking.
With the number of cars growing all the time, this problem is going to get worse rather than better.
I actually rather like the Japanese small cars. I drooled over the Suzuki Cappucino the way that Growler adores his big V8 machine ... but despite the space problems here, it seems to be harder to buy a good tiny car than a big two-seat American sportscar.
Maybe we're going to see more Smarts on the road? One of my friends is delighted with hers, and she says one the best things about it is the ease of parking
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The main thing here is consideration for others. While you can't expect to always get outside your house, there is no need to make it harder for others either.
My current gripe is the chap 2 doors down from me who insists on parking *exactly* outside his house. This means there is space for just less than two cars between it and the alley-way beside my house where everyone turns around, yet about 1.5 spaces between it and the cars infront. A little bit of thought and consideration would mean we could all get in nicely...
Similarly, there is a car dumped over the road - the owner admits it will never pass another MOT but is oddly reluctant to get rid of it - that is also about 2.5 spaces from one end and 1.5 spaces from another obstruction, thus restricting the number of cars that can park on the street.
My house was sold with off-road parking facilities, but it isn't feasible to use them as it is in the garden, down said alleyway, which often ends up blocked by other cars or by rubbish etc. I'd for ever be getting blocked in, not to mention the fact the car would be a much easier target for thieves as it's quiet and secluded down the back.
Actually, one other gripe - visitors who take up loads of space outside other's properties. Granted they have the right to park where they wish, but when they go home and your car is left parked miles away all night and the space outside your house is empty...
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Similarly, there is a car dumped over the road - the owner admits it will never pass another MOT but is oddly reluctant to get rid of it - that is also about 2.5 spaces from one end and 1.5 spaces from another obstruction, thus restricting the number of cars that can park on the street.
Unlikely to pass an MOT.... Hmmm, you don't think the handbrake would be a bit weak, do you? Fairly easy to push it about half a car-length when nobody is looking.
Not speaking from experience, of course. Oh no, not me.
:o)
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