I hope the Government take a keen interest in proceedings.
In the example I used above, the MD spoke to his local MP to stress the importance of a deal and regulatory harmony.
The MP is a new Tory. The constituency had been Labour for generations previously.
The MP said, don't worry about the regulations and licencing, carry on just as before.
Well you can go to prison for decades (to life) if you trade in this industry without the relevant licences.
The MP had no clue as to the industry, how many companies were involved etc.
The knock on jobs were also not a consideration - packaging suppliers, subcontract manufacturers, logistic firms, testing companies, raw material suppliers, accountants, lawyers and research funds to universities. Most of this would all go to Belgium.
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I hope the Government take a keen interest in proceedings.
In the example I used above, the MD spoke to his local MP to stress the importance of a deal and regulatory harmony.
The UK government isn't the one stopping a deal with the UE - it's the EU and their unrealistic demands we essenitally be supplicants. A level playing field their demands are not.
The MP is a new Tory. The constituency had been Labour for generations previously.
The MP said, don't worry about the regulations and licencing, carry on just as before.
Well you can go to prison for decades (to life) if you trade in this industry without the relevant licences.
Do you think it's a great idea for the EU to throw their dummy out of the pram and threaten reprisals for us democratically voting to leave the EU, which is what their 'negotiators' have been doing for best part of 4 years now? Our side has had an agreement ready to go with all those in place - its the EU that has been not negoitaing, but bullying.
The government has said that the overwhelming majority of rules and regs will continue as before precisely because we want to trade on a level playing field. That also is because many of them originate from the UK - especially engineering/technical/medical standards , which Nissan would be following.
Some areas of regulation will change, but not to the degree that business won't be able to trade with EU nations, given differences still exist around the world and trade continues.
The MP had no clue as to the industry, how many companies were involved etc.
The knock on jobs were also not a consideration - packaging suppliers, subcontract manufacturers, logistic firms, testing companies, raw material suppliers, accountants, lawyers and research funds to universities. Most of this would all go to Belgium.
You appear to be implying that the new MP was saying that they didn't care if the plant closed as regards the knock-on effects - what I glean from the comment was more that if the EU play ball and continue to trade, then the knock-on effects of even WTO (no deal) would be relatively minor over the long term. Short term, maybe, but that's their fault, not ours. If the EU had negotiated in good faith, we wouldn't be in this position.
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<< The UK government isn't the one stopping a deal with the UE - it's the EU and their unrealistic demands we essentially be supplicants. A level playing field their demands are not. >>
Andy, you are reiterating your lopsided nonsense again. There is No Deal because neither side will compromise enough to reach an agreement, not just the EU. I suspect the EU would really quite like rid of the UK as we have been a thorn for decades, won't join the Euro and all the other niggles. The French approach may be better.
And the 'democratically voting' bit - if Trump had been in charge here he would still be disputing the referendum result :-)
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<< The UK government isn't the one stopping a deal with the UE - it's the EU and their unrealistic demands we essentially be supplicants. A level playing field their demands are not. >>
Andy, you are reiterating your lopsided nonsense again.
That's your opinion. When I see you posting some actual evidence, then I might pay more attention.
There is No Deal because neither side will compromise enough to reach an agreement, not just the EU.
Sorry, buy that's rather disengenuous, given that we've already made many compromises, and the EU have made none (please name an on their side and of note). They also demand things like full access to our waters for fishing and full rights to EU citizens, juristiction to their court without anything the other way.
They never made any such demands of Japan or Canada. We already agreed to matching standards on goods, and better on animal welfare (they appear to be complaining about that). What they DON'T like is that we now can set lower taxes (not that this will be an issue any time soon) if WE want to, because it would mean the cost of doing business and employing people would be cheaper, attracting trade here.
Their 'subsidies' (AKA bribes)to certian business sectors will eventually mean they will run out of funds or have to pay the proverbial piper via vastly higher taxes or inflation via borrowing.
I suspect the EU would really quite like rid of the UK as we have been a thorn for decades, won't join the Euro and all the other niggles.
They have a funny way of showing it. This is all to deter any other states from joining us, plus ego.
The French approach may be better.
You mean sulking and threatening supposed friends every time they don't get their way after unreasonable demands to prop up inefficient industries or corrupt / illegal practices?
I'd rather not have 'friends' (the French government, not the French people, who are slowly waking up to the same issues we did before voting to leave) if they acted like that all the time. Rather like petulant children.
And the 'democratically voting' bit - if Trump had been in charge here he would still be disputing the referendum result :-)
The problem was that many on the Remain side were disputing the referendum result, then when it became blindingly obvious that there was no election fraud (despite the MSM's and Electoral Commissions many attempts to fabricate it), they switched tactics to...well, we all know what happened then.
We took a day to vote, count them all, verify that vote and declare the result, all using paper ballots and no counting machines.
In the US, all the allegations of voter fraud (and despite what the MSM will tell you, they have a LOT of substance and credance) are still being investigated. And 99.9% of the problems have come about in states and cities controlled by (especially the election officials) the ' Democratic' Party or Never Trumper Republicans.
When a senile corrupt guy hiding in his basement who gets single-figure turnouts for rallies gets '80M votes' when the famed Obama only got 70M, plus the very 'unusual' voter turnout, sudden changes in numbers all for Biden and people throwing out official vote counting watchers/boarding up counting stations in Dem cities (amazingly all in swing states), then any sane person would become suspicious of the results.
70% of Americans now believe the election was fraudulent. Not me plucking figures out of the air, that's a poll done by a reputable firm.
- - - - - -
PS. As others have said, I'm sure if Nissan foolishly decide to (after being strong-armed by the EU) move out, then the number of their cars (especially the QQ and Juke) sold in the UK will plummet, and another more reasonable manufacturer can buy it up for peanuts and take those sales.
Have a nice day ;-)
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<< When a senile corrupt guy hiding in his basement who gets single-figure turnouts for rallies gets '80M votes' when the famed Obama only got 70M, plus the very 'unusual' voter turnout, sudden changes in numbers all for Biden and people throwing out official vote counting watchers/boarding up counting stations in Dem cities (amazingly all in swing states), then any sane person would become suspicious of the results.
70% of Americans now believe the election was fraudulent. Not me plucking figures out of the air, that's a poll done by a reputable firm. >>
Like I said, lopsided nonsense. If a throwaway phrase like 'senile corrupt guy' is to be taken seriously I would think it applies equally to DT (if not more so) than to JB, unless your remark was aimed at DT, who did seem to hide more than usual during the count. Maybe DT gave up the chase when someone suggested that more fraud might be found on his side than Biden's.
Anyway I have more interesting things to do with my time than collect 'facts' only to be told that they are fake news. And yes, I am having a nice day, thanks.
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‘70% of Americans now believe the election was fraudulent. Not me plucking figures out of the air, that's a poll done by a reputable firm.’
I follow a lot of American news via lots of channels, and I’m curious about this survey. Who commissioned it?
If it’s the POLITICO/Morning Consult poll, it’s 70% of Republicans. So 70% of the minority.
Edited by mcb100 on 26/11/2020 at 20:02
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‘70% of Americans now believe the election was fraudulent. Not me plucking figures out of the air, that's a poll done by a reputable firm.’ I follow a lot of American news via lots of channels, and I’m curious about this survey. Who commissioned it? If it’s the POLITICO/Morning Consult poll, it’s 70% of Republicans. So 70% of the minority.
You forgot to add the Dem voters.
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‘70% of Americans now believe the election was fraudulent. Not me plucking figures out of the air, that's a poll done by a reputable firm.’
Reputable or not, the finding is irrelevant. If they have not been taught how to think, people will believe what they are told by those whom they choose to believe. Over 70% of Americans believe there is some sort of cosmic wizard who takes a personal interest in their affairs. They even print it on their bank notes. Frightening.
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Unless you are in the room no one knows what compromises have been made until the final deal is revealed.
Japan and Canada are miles away, the amount of trade is miniscule compared to EU/UK trade. Our Japanese deal is worth about 50% less for GDP than the same deal was worth while we were in the EU.
If we manage to secure our 12 mile fishing waters keep a look out for what we negotiated away, it will be significant.
The UK has always had the ability to set its own taxes, its why they are different to other EU countries.
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Having read the judgment of my learned friend Engineer Andy of HJ Forum, I agree.
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Sorry, buy that's rather disengenuous, given that we've already made many compromises, and the EU have made none (please name an on their side and of note). They also demand things like full access to our waters for fishing and full rights to EU citizens, juristiction to their court without anything the other way.
The last time I saw the fishing boat unloading their catch, I can tell you there was a British captain but the rest were Bangladesh/Filipino crew. Similarly, have you seen the Young’s frozen cod package ? Caught in the North Atlantic, processed in China. Carrot, potato and other British grown vegetables sold in supermarket were still picked by largely non-UK workforce…..
I thought the slogan was British job for British ?
PS. As others have said, I'm sure if Nissan foolishly decide to (after being strong-armed by the EU) move out, then the number of their cars (especially the QQ and Juke) sold in the UK will plummet, and another more reasonable manufacturer can buy it up for peanuts and take those sales.
Nissan will not make a foolish decision but their decision will be based on business/economic impact. It will be painful for them to lose the UK market but it’s not the end of the game. For them it is a sprat to catch a mackerel.
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PS. As others have said, I'm sure if Nissan foolishly decide to (after being strong-armed by the EU) move out, then the number of their cars (especially the QQ and Juke) sold in the UK will plummet, and another more reasonable manufacturer can buy it up for peanuts and take those sales.
If they stay and have to pay more to export their cars then sales in Europe will plummet...and sure they sell more in Europe than in the UK so it is the more important market - so they will do what is best from an economic point of view. What exactly foolish about what makes them the most money?
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70% of Americans now believe the election was fraudulent. Not me plucking figures out of the air, that's a poll done by a reputable firm.
- - - - - -
Assume you are referring to this:
70% of Republicans say election wasn't 'free and fair' despite no evidence of fraud – study | US news | The Guardian
As usual people don't like to accept they lost - they have to try and invent something to make out there was cheating etc Very sad
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When a senile corrupt guy hiding in his basement who gets single-figure turnouts for rallies gets '80M votes' when the famed Obama only got 70M, plus the very 'unusual' voter turnout, sudden changes in numbers all for Biden and people throwing out official vote counting watchers/boarding up counting stations in Dem cities (amazingly all in swing states), then any sane person would become suspicious of the results.
Where is your evidence Biden is corrupt? Biden in the basement? Biden was Vice President for 8 years, alongside Obama. They faced Ebola, Sars .... financial crisis....
The Polls were pointing to +8 points for Biden.
Trump divided America. I had a lot of admiration for Trump when he was a businessman, but the more I got to see him, the less I liked. There is a lack of decency (good choice of words by Biden).
When you see US citizens in NY hospitals and the Present is horse trading and playing politics about help.....
In the news: US Attorney General William Barr says his justice department has found no proof to back President Donald Trump's claims of fraud in the 2020 election
PS. As others have said, I'm sure if Nissan foolishly decide to (after being strong-armed by the EU) move out, then the number of their cars (especially the QQ and Juke) sold in the UK will plummet, and another more reasonable manufacturer can buy it up for peanuts and take those sales
Which manufacturer do you suppose will buy up that plant? If Nissan can't make it work, who do you think can?
If Nissan Sunderland had extra capacity, they could have exported cars to the US. Do you think Trump would have welcomed British made Nissan cars?
Nissan employs around 7,000 people at its Sunderland factory and the majority voted for Brexit. They need to take responsibility for their actions. If Nissan leaves, they will be responsible for their loss of livelihood. I was not happy when Theresa May offered Nissan £80m sweetener.
I suspect the Government, will do everything to save face over Sunderland.
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If the EU had negotiated in good faith, we wouldn't be in this position.
The lack of good faith can be traced to 2016 when the UK's desire for changes resulted in a kick in the teeth.
I'm in Kent the short term outlook on the roads and at the docks is challenging, longer term things will settle, and regarding Sunderland if the UK ceases to buy German made cars there will be need for a factory to make cars to meet domestic demand.
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Unlike some, I do not believe that all the fault in negotiating Brexit terms lies with the EU. More likely both sides will try anything to achieve a result.
We should be mindful that we left the EU in part because we wanted the freedom to not follow their rules and regulations. Unfortunately, they insist that if the UK wants to export goods to the EU then the UK must comply with those rules. This is the crux of the negotiations and I suggest we don't hold any aces in our hand!
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Irrespective of there being a trade deal or not with the EU, from 1st January both an export declaration from the EU and an import declaration into the UK will have to be generated for every consignment coming into the UK. The process is reversed for consignments going from the UK into the EU.
Whether it's the supplier or customer who pays for this to be done will depend on the trading terms but these additional costs will have to be recovered somewhere.
Tariffs and duties are also part of the additional cost equation depending on the product if there's a 'No Deal'
For a UK company shipping into the EU, depending on trading terms, VAT recovery will also be challenging.
Interestingly my import/export agent contacts voted to remain in the EU but are making an absolute fortune at the moment from companies scrabbling to prepare for the 1st January.
Edited by gkb40 on 26/11/2020 at 16:39
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Indeed. if you read the blurb from gov on their web site about up and coming trade tariffs, it is indeed mind boggling. Took me about two hours to review the short version (only 270 pages).
From reading this it seems that every consignment needs a customs declaration for every item included. So in reality a lorry carrying a mix of items (to make the logistics efficient) will need a hefty file with multiple declarations.
Shame Brexit is not exportable seems like a growth industry (albeit not for profit).
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Brexit is not, and never was, solely about the economy. It was about England becoming an independent nation again. Controlling our borders, our seas and our laws.
I am old enough to remember England before we joined the EU. There was hardly a foreign car on the roads (VW's were air-cooled only). Good old British pounds, shillings and pence. Petrol sold in imperial gallons, not litres. The country shared a common culture. There were no ridiculous EU health and safety regulations and we were not a dumping ground for the EU's waifs and strays.
The car factories of the Midlands employed tens of thousands, plus all the suppliers. Our cars were exported around the world (a large proportion of which we controlled).
Once we joined the EU (EEC as was) they systematically plundered our seas, imposed regulations which destroyed our industries and led to their relocation to Germany and France.
Brexit is the best thing to happen to this country in the last 48 years. If a few Japanese car factories close then so be it. If there is some economic turbulence then so be it. We will still need cars and we will build our own factories - we are world leaders in many areas of automotive technology.
Edited by Tinid on 01/12/2020 at 10:39
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Is this a parody comment?
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Is this a parody comment?
Is does at least admit that Brexit is an England thing.......
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OMG
I can respect his opinion but can't agree with single bit....
Edited by Catfood on 01/12/2020 at 11:40
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I can respect his opinion but can't agree with single bit....
I won't even go that far. To imply a golden age of British car making which was ruined by joining the EEC (as it then was) needs a high-power pair of rose-tinteds. I've made no secret of thinking that Brexit might be a nice idea in theory but not in practice. With noticeable effects about to begin next month, I am still waiting to be told what great advantages are soon to accrue. As time passes some may wish to jump back into the frying-pan.
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- Brexit is not, and never was, solely about the economy. It was about England becoming an independent nation again. Controlling our borders, our seas and our laws.
I am old enough to remember England before we joined the EU. There was hardly a foreign car on the roads (VW's were air-cooled only). Good old British pounds, shillings and pence. Petrol sold in imperial gallons, not litres. The country shared a common culture. There were no ridiculous EU health and safety regulations and we were not a dumping ground for the EU's waifs and strays.
The car factories of the Midlands employed tens of thousands, plus all the suppliers. Our cars were exported around the world (a large proportion of which we controlled).
Once we joined the EU (EEC as was) they systematically plundered our seas, imposed regulations which destroyed our industries and led to their relocation to Germany and France.
Brexit is the best thing to happen to this country in the last 48 years. If a few Japanese car factories close then so be it. If there is some economic turbulence then so be it. We will still need cars and we will build our own factories - we are world leaders in many areas of automotive technology.
I can believe it is a real sentiment.
Breixit is all about regaining control of what we do.
But anyone going on about the imperial system of measures is an old stick in the mud and not worth reading in my view.
As for a "few Japanese car plants closing" the Japanese account for around 48% of all UK car production..
If Brexit is managed like Covid, we can expect to see a political revolution which will last about 20 years.(like Thatcher after the Winter of Discontent.)
Edited by madf on 01/12/2020 at 12:30
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Brexit is not, and never was, solely about the economy. It was about England becoming an independent nation again. Controlling our borders, our seas and our laws.
No it's not about the economy. It's about giving power back. Back to the people already in power and their allies, it's about stopping the Tory party splitting up. They never cared about us.
I am old enough to remember England before we joined the EU.
Me too. A right pit it was too. Even in to the early '80s we had bombsites in the town centre that we couldn't afford to put right. Crumbling services and industry. Failing infrastructure. Our fault for not investing - no one else's.
There was hardly a foreign car on the roads (VW's were air-cooled only).
Only because there were trade barriers and to be honest, there were so few cars because people couldn't afford them like they can now - because standards of living really rose under the EU.
I remember asking a mate's dad why he brought some Japanese car rather than the latest cool thing from BL. His comment was that the Japanese car started every morning. His last new British model had refused to start so often that his job was at risk because of it.
Good old British pounds, shillings and pence. Petrol sold in imperial gallons, not litres.
Same product, different measures. Really makes no difference what so ever. Only the US keeps to Gallons and there not even imperial ones.
The country shared a common culture.
Other EU countries kept their common cultures. Why didn't we? Was it because some British politician in the late 70's or early 80's said there was no such thing as society?
There were no ridiculous EU health and safety regulations
Say that to the people who suffer from Mesothelioma because their employers were too tight to spring for a mask or the bloke who fell from scaffolding because it wasn't secured properly, or the iron foundry workers killed by the blast furnace explosion.
and we were not a dumping ground for the EU's waifs and strays.
Or our OAPS that go and buy up all the houses in some nice EU hotspot pushing the locals out.
TBH, I know so many EU citizens who are so well qualified it's an embarrassment, all working productively in STEM industries because we just don't encourage it.
The car factories of the Midlands employed tens of thousands, plus all the suppliers. Our cars were exported around the world
And as soon as they found better products from our rivals, guess what they did!
(a large proportion of which we controlled).
We may have enjoyed controlling countries around the world, but the locals certainly didn't enjoy being controlled by us. (Would you still like slaves?).
Anyway, our empire was reduced, not on instructions from the EU, but by our supposed best ally
Once we joined the EU (EEC as was) they systematically plundered our seas, imposed regulations which destroyed our industries and led to their relocation to Germany and France.
No-one forced businesses to relocate. Those that did, did so to higher wage countries - like Germany and France, because productivity was higher. It's even harder to fire people there but they still went. Go figure. I have worked in French and German companies. There's no spending time on personal mobiles, no taking the Michael etc.
Brexit is the best thing to happen to this country in the last 48 years.
Honestly it isn't.
If a few Japanese car factories close then so be it.
How callous. Forget about the thousands of workers who will lose their jobs and those in the support industries too.
If there is some economic turbulence then so be it.
Have you ever been in such economic dire straights that you don't know where the next meal is coming from to feed your kids? If you had, I don't truthfully believe you would be saying that.
We will still need cars and we will build our own factories - we are world leaders in many areas of automotive technology.
Like Jaguar and LandRover, priced so every Tom, Dick and Harry can afford one, and wants to live with their reliability record.
What Brexit will do is remove a lot of the rules that keep things fair in this country. It will enable the wealthy to become wealthier still - and I earn in the top 5% - so hope to be fairly well insulated. Just look at the people that bank rolled Brexit. They want to create their own thiefdom and if you look at the way many contracts for equipment were handed out during the Covid crisis, they have already partly succeeded.
Edited by James2018 on 01/12/2020 at 14:38
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Many thanks, James, for taking the time to debunk all that systematically.
I can respect the views of Brexiteers, without agreeing with them - provided that they've given the issues some thought before arriving at their opinion.
The Japanese-owned car factories were sited in areas of high unemployment, where there would be plenty of skilled workers: when Honda closes the Swindon plant next year it will be very hard for those people to find work. To toss that off in a single sentence is unworthy to say the least.
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The closing of the car plants is not just a result of Brexit. The Japan-EU free trade deal means that cars manufactured in Japan will be subject to reduced or no tariffs so there is every incentive to centralize production of cars in Japan rather than having an assembly plant in the EU/Europe.
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To leave the EU without an agreement because of an inability to agree the fishing issue would be profoundly stupid.
The fishing industry employs ~12000 directly and contributes ~£1bn to the UK economy. It is utterly trivial - more jobs in Arcadia and Debenhams were lost in a single day!. It would be profoundly stupid to risk the car (or almost any other) part of the economy.
Even if the UK took immediate full control of the fishing grounds they would be unable to fish them. They don't have the fishermen, boats, fish processing, etc etc infrastructure right now. The ony plausible actions would be to either (a) leave the fish to swim happiliy, or (b) contract exiting EU based resources to do the work they are already doing.
Fishing is mostly a triumph of emotion over common sense.
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Without wishing to use the pun, fishing really is the biggest red herring going regarding the Brexit negotiations.
It's akin to not being able to agree the technical specification on a multi-million pound new aircraft design because the colour of the tyres is the wrong shade of black.
......................... and I've yet to see any evidence of one single advantage we'll gain.
Edited by nick62 on 02/12/2020 at 20:31
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One "advantage" is that the UK didn't have to wait for the EU to give its approval to be new Covid vaccine. May have saved two or three weeks.
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One "advantage" is that the UK didn't have to wait for the EU to give its approval to be new Covid vaccine. May have saved two or three weeks.
Not true, (akin to the bendy banana myth):
"Under European law a vaccine must be authorised by the EMA, but individual countries can use an emergency procedure that allows them to distribute a vaccine for temporary use in their domestic market."
Britain is still subject to those EU rules during the post-Brexit transition period which runs until the end of the year.
The UK's own medicines regulator, the MHRA, confirmed this in a statement last month.
Much like the Brexit campaign strategy, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Edited by nick62 on 03/12/2020 at 12:50
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One "advantage" is that the UK didn't have to wait for the EU to give its approval to be new Covid vaccine. May have saved two or three weeks.
Not true, (akin to the bendy banana myth):
"Under European law a vaccine must be authorised by the EMA, but individual countries can use an emergency procedure that allows them to distribute a vaccine for temporary use in their domestic market."
Britain is still subject to those EU rules during the post-Brexit transition period which runs until the end of the year.
The UK's own medicines regulator, the MHRA, confirmed this in a statement last month.
Much like the Brexit campaign strategy, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
A wise person checks before making claims that can be easily checked.
Williamson made that claim today (Education Minister). Hardly a sharp crayon.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9013629/Were-bett...l
I would not wish to be associated with someone like that.. He's usually wrong.
Edited by madf on 03/12/2020 at 13:04
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Yes but the EU member states have agreed to procure the vaccine centrally and therefore the EMA approval is required.
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Keep looking for advantages to not being in the EU, you will not find any as there are none.
I feel sorry for Toyota, they build excellent stuff in Darbyshire, far better than some of the ICE stuff from Washington.
Edited by JonestHon on 03/12/2020 at 20:50
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Keep looking for advantages to not being in the EU, you will not find any as there are none.
I feel sorry for Toyota, they build excellent stuff in Darbyshire, far better than some of the ICE stuff from Washington.
Why do you feel sorry for Toyota??
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Keep looking for advantages to not being in the EU, you will not find any as there are none.
I think quite a few advantages were imagined or dreamt about, but hardly anyone stopped to think how they might be achieved in the real world.
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"Yes but the EU member states have agreed to procure the vaccine centrally and therefore the EMA approval is required."
Some EU member states, Hungary have gone outside of EU for some of their vaccine.
Edited by daveyjp on 03/12/2020 at 22:13
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Yes, they have chosen to use the Russian Sputnik vaccine.
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