Gas boiler blues - John F

Rather than resurrecting the old 'Which Boiler' thread I thought I'd start a new one. I've been told a 15+ yr old Ideal Mini C24(Kw) a weepy auto air valve replacing and also the gas control valve is 'not working fully' - and also needs replacement. It is also in 'poor condition'. Cost - £450. Dilemma is repair or replace? It's in a tiny modernish house with one bathroom, three small rads and two larger ones. I am minded to replace, but quotes have been north of the £2k mark!

The C24 is still apparently widely available for only around £800 including a filter. I am happy to pay £800 for the component parts and the time to assemble them into such a brilliant working machine delivered to my door. However, I am not happy to pay a gas fitter more than £100 an hour to come and drain, flush and perform a simple non-emergency like for like exchange, which according to Google should take no longer than 4-6 hrs, e.g.a day's work - or less if experienced and competent. (my benchmark - locum day rates for GPs are c.£6-800).

Incidentally, the 2009 Grant Vortex oil burner I mentioned in the other thread is still performing well with minimal attention over the years. Much sympathy to those tied into paying ridiculous prices for gas and the pipe network standing charge during the past few years.

Gas boiler blues - Adampr

A plumber would normally cost about £40-£50 per hour.

Personally, I'd have it repaired if it's a fifth of the price. Alternative would be to ask whoever would do the repair for a price to fit a like-for-like replacement if you buy it for them.

Gas boiler blues - daveyjp

A proper flush (which will be needed for warranty purposes) can take a few hours.

This is all time you are paying a gas fitter for.

Gas boiler blues - Orb>>.

I've been told a 15+ yr old Ideal Mini C24(Kw) a weepy auto air valve replacing and also the gas control valve is 'not working fully' - and also needs replacement. It is also in 'poor condition'. Cost - £450. Dilemma is repair or replace?

We had a near identical problem earlier in the year. ideal mini i30 that was 12 years old.

2 years ago replace heat exchanger, improved hot water flow.. this year very tepid "hot" water.

Ideal will come and try a fix for the above price and only charge the ( I think ) £149 call out fee if it does not work.

You can get a brand new ideal searching online and just fit the new one in the same place, same pipework according to our plumber, but he didn't rate them, so he suggested a Valiant Glowworm 30 and fitted complete with new flue drain, flush, clean new filter and chemicals and gas safety certificate for £1870 which was way less than any of the online quotes.

CO4 postcode.

We went with that. it's near on silent, water temp can be easily adjusted on the screen.

You could buy the ideal boiler yourself with a new flue there are complete installation kits available with everything all in.and just get a quote to fit. about 4 hours max

Gas boiler blues - Xileno

I expect a plumber will increase their rate if they're not supplying the parts as they will be losing their trade discount.

Gas boiler blues - John F

Thanks everyone. Also, do I really need one of these new-fangled magnetic filters which have recently been pushed by the trade as a necessary extra? It's a really small system with only five rads, three of which are small.

Gas boiler blues - Orb>>.

If you can flush annually, not much need for a magnetic filter but given the overall cost of a new boiler not too much extra. don't forget the chemicals if you do flush, so not much saving.

If you fit the glowworm it gets a 10 year warranty too.

Ideal is only 5 years, unless one of the newer logic ones.

Gas boiler blues - Terry W

Old boilers have a lot in common with old cars - they don't last for ever. and another component may fail in a few months or a year incurring further cost

At 15 years old you can go the cheap repair route today with risks, or buy new and be reasonably assured of (say) 5-10+ years reliable service.

Questions to ask yourself - (a) can I afford the cost of replacement, and (b) how long to I intend to live in the house.

Personal view (we all think differently) - I would replace if I intended to stay here for 3+ years. It is not just the costs but the hassle of losing central heating and hot water - inevitably at the least convenient time any paying emergency call out rates.

Gas boiler blues - Orb>>.

Personal view (we all think differently) - I would replace if I intended to stay here for 3+ years. It is not just the costs but the hassle of losing central heating and hot water - inevitably at the least convenient time any paying emergency call out rates.

Yep happened to the previous owner of a bungalow I bought last year...£724 to fit a new pump inc callout fee. I found the invoice, yes it was in a previous January.

Gas boiler blues - Engineer Andy

If you can flush annually, not much need for a magnetic filter but given the overall cost of a new boiler not too much extra. don't forget the chemicals if you do flush, so not much saving.

If you fit the glowworm it gets a 10 year warranty too.

Only if the installer is the top-level one with Vaillant. If I recall correctly, there are three tiers for theirs/Glowworm boilers - 5yrs for just A.N. Other plumber, 7 years for the 1st level installer, 10 years for the top level, though some boilers may not be able to go above the 7 mark because they are 'lesser' and/or ones of older design.

Best to check on the website/phone them as necessary.

Gas boiler blues - Orb>>.

If you can flush annually, not much need for a magnetic filter but given the overall cost of a new boiler not too much extra. don't forget the chemicals if you do flush, so not much saving.

If you fit the glowworm it gets a 10 year warranty too.

Only if the installer is the top-level one with Vaillant. If I recall correctly, there are three tiers for theirs/Glowworm boilers - 5yrs for just A.N. Other plumber, 7 years for the 1st level installer, 10 years for the top level, though some boilers may not be able to go above the 7 mark because they are 'lesser' and/or ones of older design.

Best to check on the website/phone them as necessary.

Mine is the approved installer. 10 year warranty.

To another poster was a 1 man job about 4 and a bit hours. "womble" collected shortly after putting on driveway.. do they have sensors?

Gas boiler blues - bathtub tom

Thanks everyone. Also, do I really need one of these new-fangled magnetic filters

The last boiler I had fitted had one as part of the package and I believe it was necessary for the warranty. Bear in mind where it's fitted, mine was fitted in the loft with its base on the plasterboard. There's a plug in the bottom that's necessary to remove to flush it (an annual job). Means I have to remove the whole filter each year!

Gas boiler blues - Engineer Andy

I can understand many people's reluctance to part with well over £2k for a 'standard' boiler installation, especially when they find out how much the actual boiler costs to buy.

I agree with those who state that a decent plumber should be charging in the range £40 (if you're very lucky) to £60 per hour for their work.

Note that often the replacement of a boiler will be a two-man job, hence why they may charge much nearer the £100ph mark, probably adding on 50% for the plumber's mate, but then things should in theory go a bit quicker and the simple tasks done by them may actually reduce the price compared to if the plumber alone did the job.

In addition, they factor in the cost of disposal of the old boiler, which I doubt if you can just take down the local municipal tip and dispose of at all or for free like you would an old TV.

Add on to all the above and the actual install costs comes the warranty, which you won't have if you do it yourself, unless you are Gas Safe registered and, for upper tier warranties (7-10yrs) have passed the required course to be an 'advanced fitter' for that brand.

That in itself is worth several £000s (maybe more over a 10 year timeframe), given how much you're getting quoted for the repair work, whereas under warranty, its all free, except perhaps for the phone call to report it. Normally, the only things not covered or lesser warranties are the system controller and heat exchangers, which are mostly just 2 years.

If you / your plumber can easily source quality replacement parts and any other boiler / system issues can be fixed for that £450, then I'd go for the repair. I'd be wary these days about DIYing an install or fixing issues internal to the boiler because of the risk if you make an error and the consequences, financial or physical if that leads to some major 'event'.

At least with the repair, it gives you time to research a 'proper' replacement rather than rush into making a decision you may later regret. Rather like the same conundrum for cars.

Gas boiler blues - bathtub tom

In addition, they factor in the cost of disposal of the old boiler, which I doubt if you can just take down the local municipal tip and dispose of at all or for free like you would an old TV

Don't see why not, it's just metal after all and would probably fit in the boot of any car. Round my way, they're just left out in the garden and 'wombles' grab them promptly.

Gas boiler blues - Engineer Andy

In addition, they factor in the cost of disposal of the old boiler, which I doubt if you can just take down the local municipal tip and dispose of at all or for free like you would an old TV

Don't see why not, it's just metal after all and would probably fit in the boot of any car. Round my way, they're just left out in the garden and 'wombles' grab them promptly.

I suppose it depends upon how large / heavy they are and whether they specifically are allowed, given some older boilers (likely floor mounted ones, given wall-mounted boilers, especially combis, rarely last more than 20 years) will likely have asbestos somewhere in them.

More likely is that they are classed as 'business waste' (because 99.99% of the time, a plumber will be involved in the work) and you'll likely have to go to the business waste recycling centre (likely privately run) and pay for the 'privilege' of disposing it.

They could also have lists so ones that originally contained asbestos insulation would have to be separated and special measures taken to keep personnel and the environment safe at all subsequent stages.

As regards 'leaving to Uncle Bulgaria & Sons', I would strongly caution that approach, because, other than copper and perhaps a few metal-only components, its likely that large chunks of the old boiler will end up fly-tipped, the removal of which is paid for by us taxpayers and is obviously NOT good for the environment.

I see an increasing amount of dumped large domestic appliances as well as furniture and builders waste on my cycle rides in the countryside in Herts, Cambs and Essex these days. Yes, it's likely that a good deal of it is actually dumped by the original contractor - builder, plumber local indie appliance shop (in order of how likely they are to do this), but many of them sub-out to these 'people', some who are licensed waste contractors, many not.

We should be taking the moral high road and insisting it be done above-board as best we can. Not doing so sets a bad example for everyone, especially the young.

Gas boiler blues - John F

In addition, they factor in the cost of disposal of the old boiler, which I doubt if you can just take down the local municipal tip and dispose of at all or for free like you would an old TV

Don't see why not, it's just metal after all and would probably fit in the boot of any car.

Neither do I. If the tip refused it, I have screw drivers, spanners, a hack saw and a lump hammer.........Also, there are now commercial ventures known as 'rage rooms' where people pay to smash things up!

Gas boiler blues - Orb>>.

Neither do I. If the tip refused it, I have screw drivers, spanners, a hack saw and a lump hammer.........Also, there are now commercial ventures known as 'rage rooms' where people pay to smash things up!

Yes !

But what are you doing about the boiler? fix or replace?

Gas boiler blues - Terry W

You may find a demand for sc*** boilers due to the high metal content which may also include copper and aluminium. In many areas just leave a boiler, oven, etc in the front of the house and it will be gone before the day is out.

The bit that our local recycling centre have problems is building waste - hardcore, plasterboard, slabs, tiles etc. It won't burn, won't rot, can't be upcycled or recycled - just goes to landfill.

Gas boiler blues - Falkirk Bairn

Our local council now want £25 to pick up a washing machine !

You used to get 2, latterly 1 free uplift per year - since April everything is chargeable.

Local man has a part-time job - you text/Facebook him . Quick Reply and says he will come within say 24/48 hours. Leave it visible is all he asks.

It's a dad and a teenage son and a battered Transit pickup. He does approx 20 every day - late afternoon /early evening. Brilliant service. He asked if the electric motor was OK - obviously recycles that separately.

Previously I would have booked a trip to the tip. Neighbour helps me loading the washing machine but unloading is beyond my ability and there is never a Council worker nearby at the tip.

Gas boiler blues - skidpan

All we do when appliances have been replaced is put the dead one at the end of the drive (on our property). Last one was a washing machine, gone in 10 minutes. Before that it was a seriously corroded camping trailer, that took a couple of hours.

But be careful in parts of the country. Read a report recently where local councils were sending out hefty fines to people who had placed dead items on the pavements claiming they were fly tipping.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyq5d1gdddo

Gas boiler blues - FP

"All we do when appliances have been replaced is put the dead one at the end of the drive..."

I have thought about this - next door does something similar. But are you happy that the appliances will be properly disposed of and not become part of some environmental or anti-social problem?

Gas boiler blues - skidpan

"All we do when appliances have been replaced is put the dead one at the end of the drive..."

I have thought about this - next door does something similar. But are you happy that the appliances will be properly disposed of and not become part of some environmental or anti-social problem?

How do we know how appliances are recycled at the end of their useful life even if they go to a supposed "professional" set up. Two large close to us have gone up in smoke in recent times the suspicion being they had too much stuff and no market for it.

I would suspect that the chaps who pick them up in an old Transit strip them down for their metal parts and possibly even have a market for working electrical motors.

The plastics probably go in a wheely bin.

They cannot do a worse job than the pro's and judging by the smell coming form the van they probably spend their money on weed helping the local economy further.

Gas boiler blues - Chris M

"The plastics probably go in a wheely bin."

And when full, taken to a lane somewhere :(

Fly tipping is a big issue in the nearby lanes and the council takes action on both the tipper and the resident if they are traceable. There was a hot tub dumped a couple of weeks ago in the entrance to a farmers field.

Gas boiler blues - bathtub tom

When our last washing machine died, I'd already partially stripped it to see if it could be fixed, it couldn't. I removed the concrete and motor and put them all in the boot. SWMBO helped me lift out the carcass at the tip (much to the surprise of a worker there, seeing a couple of septuagenarians easily manhandle a washing machine).

Gas boiler blues - Engineer Andy

"The plastics probably go in a wheely bin."

And when full, taken to a lane somewhere :(

Fly tipping is a big issue in the nearby lanes and the council takes action on both the tipper and the resident if they are traceable. There was a hot tub dumped a couple of weeks ago in the entrance to a farmers field.

An increasingly large problem in my rural neck of the woods - I now regularly see fly-tipped furniture, large and small household appliances, always dumped just inside farm field entrances, which very conveniently puts the onus on the farmer to sort out (which most cannot likely afford to do if it happens regularly) rather than the council.

The fly-tippers have gotten wise, so the council and Police rarely bother to investigate even when on non-private land, because rarely (if ever) is there CCTV cameras covering such areas (forget about nearby properties whose CCTV might catch a vehicle passing - they rarely do this even to catch violent attackers in urban areas - I know from personal experience).

Frankly investigating such crimes is near the lowest in the few genuine priorities Plod has these days.

Gas boiler blues - Engineer Andy

"All we do when appliances have been replaced is put the dead one at the end of the drive..."

I have thought about this - next door does something similar. But are you happy that the appliances will be properly disposed of and not become part of some environmental or anti-social problem?

How do we know how appliances are recycled at the end of their useful life even if they go to a supposed "professional" set up. Two large close to us have gone up in smoke in recent times the suspicion being they had too much stuff and no market for it.

I would suspect that the chaps who pick them up in an old Transit strip them down for their metal parts and possibly even have a market for working electrical motors.

The plastics probably go in a wheely bin.

They cannot do a worse job than the pro's and judging by the smell coming form the van they probably spend their money on weed helping the local economy further.

At least if the company providing the replacement appliance is paid to take away and recycle the old one, there is some sort of traceability if it or parts end up fly-tipped, though admittedly not anywhere near as much as we'd like.

Sadly there appears to be a lot of 'I see no ships' going on globally with 'recycling', given how much ends up fly tipped here or in parts of India and China, ruining their environment and locals health so some criminals get rich and many others down the chain pretend they are 'going green' for good PR, but in reality are just turning a blind eye to a lot of bad things.

One of my bugbears about modern society is how so many people and companies, organisations (both of whom profit / rely financially on this industry) and politicians tout recycling of modern goods, yet the overwhelming majority of them are rarely economic or practical to actually recycle, because so many are 'integrated' and almost, if not impossible to separate into their component materials and re-use - especially electronics.

Gas boiler blues - Terry W

One of my bugbears about modern society is how so many people and companies, organisations (both of whom profit / rely financially on this industry) and politicians tout recycling of modern goods, yet the overwhelming majority of them are rarely economic or practical to actually recycle, because so many are 'integrated' and almost, if not impossible to separate into their component materials and re-use - especially electronics.

Local authorities now make fly tipping an attractive alternative by creating booking systems for the local tip and charging for many items.

Far better to tax appliances (actually all materials) when they are sold and make end of life recycling much easier.

Taxing goods when sold would make companies far more aware of the full "cost" to the environment as designs and materials used would directly impact prices and competitiveness.

Gas boiler blues - Engineer Andy

One of my bugbears about modern society is how so many people and companies, organisations (both of whom profit / rely financially on this industry) and politicians tout recycling of modern goods, yet the overwhelming majority of them are rarely economic or practical to actually recycle, because so many are 'integrated' and almost, if not impossible to separate into their component materials and re-use - especially electronics.

Local authorities now make fly tipping an attractive alternative by creating booking systems for the local tip and charging for many items.

Far better to tax appliances (actually all materials) when they are sold and make end of life recycling much easier.

Taxing goods when sold would make companies far more aware of the full "cost" to the environment as designs and materials used would directly impact prices and competitiveness.

The problem would be how those taxes would then get apportioned and spent on the relevant collection, processing and recycling facilities, etc. My local council can't even get changes to the bin collections right (hardly rocket science), so having a national government-administered system to then direct to unitary authorities, county district councils doesn't sound that appealing either.

Sad to see the countryside littered with stuff.

Gas boiler blues - Terry W

The problem would be how those taxes would then get apportioned and spent on the relevant collection, processing and recycling facilities, etc. My local council can't even get changes to the bin collections right (hardly rocket science), so having a national government-administered system to then direct to unitary authorities, county district councils doesn't sound that appealing either.

Sad to see the countryside littered with stuff.

I share your scepticism about the capacity of local authorities and government to manage anything more complex than a p155 up in a brewery (possibly not even that) - however:

  • there could be no direct link between taxes raised on materials used in manufactured items , and the costs incurred in recycling
  • assume (say) £500m were raised from material taxes
  • this could be allocated as additional funding to local authorities to invest in recycling facilities and additional running costs
  • local authorities could be legally obligated to provide recycling facilities in much the same way as the are obliged to deliver adult care and education

Current policies intended to reduce waste by making recycling expensive and difficult may do little to encourage careful use of resources and actively promotes fly-tipping.

Far better to discourage waste creation from the outset - possibly through taxation. A classic example - a trivial 5p charge for carrier bags reduced usage by ~95%.

Gas boiler blues - Xileno

The Council here in sunny West Wilts won't let anyone visit their recycling centre unless in a vehicle

"You must attend a site in a vehicle. Pedestrians are not permitted to enter the site."

So if you have an old toaster or kettle and don't run a car then the only option is the domestic landfill bin. I thought we were supposed to be saving the planet?

I keep meaning to write to them and ask why.

Gas boiler blues - Engineer Andy

The Council here in sunny West Wilts won't let anyone visit their recycling centre unless in a vehicle

"You must attend a site in a vehicle. Pedestrians are not permitted to enter the site."

So if you have an old toaster or kettle and don't run a car then the only option is the domestic landfill bin. I thought we were supposed to be saving the planet?

I keep meaning to write to them and ask why.

I had the same problem at my local 'recycling' centre in Herts. It takes me less than 5 minutes to walk there from my flat (about 3mins by car because it's a much longer [and often busy] route by road) and, up until the Plandemic, was able to do so.

Odd how from then onwards, suddenly all 'walk-ins' were banned, and you either had to phone up beforehand to 'say you were coming' giving them time to 'prepare for a walk-in' (see below for 'why') OR just drive there (as you say, hardly 'environmentally friendly') even when bringing along small items you could easily carry (it's not as though you'd be hefting along asbestos, an old bath or washing machine) for recycling or to go in their general waste skip.

The reasons I was given by operatives and the council for the changes were because (no evidence given to back this up I might add) 'a person died because they were hit by a vehicle (not here) leaving such a site, and/or that items carried in may not be accepted (how would this be different to those carried in a vehicle other than amount/weight?) and people 'might' be disinclined to take them bak home to dispose of 'somehow' in their own general waste bin (which would likely have at least as much restrictions on what goes in them).

I thought this was yet another cop-out excuse to put people off going and to reduce the opening days/hours of the sites, thus reducing council costs, whilst maximising income via charging people to take away large items from home or commercial waste / recycling such as from home refurbs, old boilers, etc.

All this does is further encourage fly-tipping, as people obviously just dump old furniture in the countryside as much as old boilers and domestic electrical goods. At least when a shop takes the old product away for 'disposal and/or partial/full recycling' they are liable and *some* traceability / legal responsibility is available if this go awry further down the chain.

I suggested to the council that given very little, if any, 'preparations' need to be made to 'accommodate' walk-ins' (how do they differentiate between that person and people who car/van on the gate?) - literally 30 seconds or less, all they needed to install is a 'doorbell' (on a timer [cameras on site would catch any kids mucking about] so not to work out of operational hours / days) to attract operatives attention, given most of the time they are just standing around doing not very much.

Needless to say, nothing has been done in the 2 years or so after I raised this.

Gas boiler blues - Engineer Andy

The problem would be how those taxes would then get apportioned and spent on the relevant collection, processing and recycling facilities, etc. My local council can't even get changes to the bin collections right (hardly rocket science), so having a national government-administered system to then direct to unitary authorities, county district councils doesn't sound that appealing either.

Sad to see the countryside littered with stuff.

I share your scepticism about the capacity of local authorities and government to manage anything more complex than a p155 up in a brewery (possibly not even that) - however:

  • there could be no direct link between taxes raised on materials used in manufactured items , and the costs incurred in recycling
  • assume (say) £500m were raised from material taxes
  • this could be allocated as additional funding to local authorities to invest in recycling facilities and additional running costs
  • local authorities could be legally obligated to provide recycling facilities in much the same way as the are obliged to deliver adult care and education

Current policies intended to reduce waste by making recycling expensive and difficult may do little to encourage careful use of resources and actively promotes fly-tipping.

Far better to discourage waste creation from the outset - possibly through taxation. A classic example - a trivial 5p charge for carrier bags reduced usage by ~95%.

Not sure about using taxation would work like it did with plastic bags, because for waste / recycling of a multitude of things, they are recyclable to very different degrees and costs (including energy) and are often not reflected in the original purchase price of the product.

1. Putting a tax on the sale price would mean assessing everything for this - extremely costly and bureaucratic - and some products (through no fault of what they are - some have to be made in that way / using X materials, which may or may not be easily recyclable, if at all) would be unfairly penalised.

It also doesn't directly go to who does the collection / recycling / dealing with the waste, but has to filter through central government, and, well, we all know how much VED never makes it to road repairs, and that's not even taking into account how inefficient government is.

2. The next method of taxation would be, as now, paying 'an amount' to actually get rid of (for recycling or to deal with as waste) when you do so, but you have the same issue as a sales tax, but just applied locally. It would at least direct the monies raised at the localised efforts.

3. The only other one I can think of is either a local or national increase in a general taxation of some percentage, but again we have the problems directing it properly (not being syphoned off for other things), plus it wouldn't take into account of things people throw away, whether to be recycled or not.

Thrifty, sensible people who bought products wisely that were long-lasting (including how well they treated them), repairable and easier to deal with at end of life would be penalised because they'd pay the same as some who, well, did the opposite.

A plastic bag tax was easy because effectively there was only one product that cost little to start with to make and without much variation in cost. I agree we need to incentivise being responsible, but I think it would need to be done in a different way.

I don't think it helps that life in general (especially doing business) is so expensive these days via central government diktat (and their huge wastefulness) where people see very little in return for doing what they want.

Far more carrot than stick needed I think.

Gas boiler blues - corax

You may find a demand for sc*** boilers due to the high metal content which may also include copper and aluminium. In many areas just leave a boiler, oven, etc in the front of the house and it will be gone before the day is out.

The bit that our local recycling centre have problems is building waste - hardcore, plasterboard, slabs, tiles etc. It won't burn, won't rot, can't be upcycled or recycled - just goes to landfill.

I thought that hardcore could be used for road construction, pathways e.t.c but apparently it needs to be the right type of hardcore to meet engineering standards. I suppose that they don't have the budget to screen it anymore.

I'm wondering how much it costs to collect fly tip waste over a year. In my area they are very good at dealing with it quickly, but the same places always get a new pile of trash at some point. On one of my regular walks I had to move a double mattress out of the way as it was blocking the path. Concealed cameras could be used but who pays for it, and as mentioned, the police have other more important issues to deal with.