My uncle had a pub. He kept it clean, provided confortable chairs, heating, music and bar games plus all the usual expectations of a nice pub as opposed to a supermarket. Like comparing apples with pears. As for the fuel analogy I am not sure it would be wise nor safe to allow people to buy packaged fuel in containers for storage and use at home. Illegal anyway I think.

The main cause of high prices of fuel, alcohol and tobacco is the amount of duty paid to HM government everytime you buy any of these products, then that is taxable for VAT too so they get a double dip. When you think of the way oil is extracted, transported, refined, transported again then stored and retailed to the motorist and it is £1.25 per litre. Beer is a simple process of water, sugar, malt yeast etc. Brewed, packaged,transported to pubs and then sold over the bar and it is £6.40 per litre. That should make you realise who is making the money out of all this. HM government of course. Manufacturers and retailers tend to make a modest profit by comparison. But the NHS etc etc has to paid for somehow. personally I would be in favour of les personal tax and more indirect taxes which are only levied at the point of purchase.

Cheers Concrete

The main point about indirect taxes is there is some sort of choice. You can choose to buy, not to buy, buy cheaper etc. trying to 'means test' people according to their wealth before they buy anything is a nightmare and possibly unfair. Why should I pay more for a pint of beer or litre of fuel because I earn more than my neighbour, it doesn't make any sense. Direct taxes however are virtually unavoidable and taken at source, so no choice exists. Indirect taxes would normally collect more from the wealthier because they tend to spend more and buy more expensive items. There is a case for any system but in general I favour letting people keep most of their income and they choose themselves how to spend it.

Cheers Concrete

The main point about indirect taxes is there is some sort of choice. You can choose to buy, not to buy, buy cheaper etc. trying to 'means test' people according to their wealth before they buy anything is a nightmare and possibly unfair. Why should I pay more for a pint of beer or litre of fuel because I earn more than my neighbour, it doesn't make any sense. Direct taxes however are virtually unavoidable and taken at source, so no choice exists. Indirect taxes would normally collect more from the wealthier because they tend to spend more and buy more expensive items. There is a case for any system but in general I favour letting people keep most of their income and they choose themselves how to spend it.

Cheers Concrete

Indirect taxes are only partly avoidable, given that some items need to be purchased. The reasons why you should pay more tax than someone else who is poorer are the same reasons you pay more income tax. That is the basis of the UK today. Those more able to pay support the NHS, police, schools etc. Taxes on goods hit those who cannot work due to disability or age, or lack of jobs. They also disproportionately hit those with children over single people. I’m of the view that well off middle class people such as myself do not pay enough tax. And the Tories want to reduce taxes further.

Sorry, but I disagree. Couples and families benefit enormously from economies of scale, especially on items that are BOGOF, services that have reduced 'family rates', etc. Despite being forced to by the EU and pushed (previously) by (money-grabbing) Treasury Mandarines, most foods, children's clothing and some other items are STILL zero rated for VAT.

Additionally, older couples still get the 'married couples allowance', and couples can more easily transfer money between themselves without attracting inheritence type taxes. Couples and families also pay, per head of household, significantly less Council Tax than single people, who only get a 25% discount, despite using approximately half the services of a couple and even less than families with kids.

I personally don't begrudge this as people raising families is the lifeblood of our nation and will generate wealth for it in future years. I DO think we as a nation pay WAY too much in tax - its because those spending it in our Public Services have got so lax and wasteful when doing so that I think many people want taxes raised.

I've seen first hand how wasteful the Public Sector is, and at the 'couldn't care less' attitude of many staff, especially managers, who have no incentive to innovate or do a better job than last year (unless they get paid more or get more resources first, a LOT more) or copy/improve on best practice from elsewhere in the world/Private Sector unless not doing so would be so obvious (e.g. new medical techniques/treatments that are widely publicised), because they know if things go badly, they'll get bailed out with money taxpayers money, unlike the Pricate Sector firms, which won't survive because a better-run firm takes their business away through consumer choice.

In my view, pubs are being taxed out of business by successive governments in-hoc to the all-powerful Treasury mandarines, who are almost the worst at their jobs as the MoD, Home Office and NHS.

This is not helped by (in my opinion) corporatist pub chains who bleed publicans dry with tied agreements and extortionate charges for produce, plus supermarkets (and, to a lesser extent, Off-licence corner shops) selling cheap booze 24/7 on loss leader arrangements or at cost (as they do with fuel) to attract customers in to buy heavily marked-up items like sweets, convenience foods and some other items.

It has been shown, time and again around the world, that low taxation in general leads to a generally more prosperous country, for rich and (the realtive) poor alike. What doesn't help matters, especially here in the UK, is many of the less well off (who are often less educated [which isn't always the fault of government, more their upbringing IMO]) tend to purchase food and goods that attract higher taxes, such as:

• Tobacco products;
• High strength booze;
• Unhealthy foods, especially conveninece foods (ironically which are far more expensive than making a meal from scratch [even basic ones that don't take long to prepare/cook] with nutritious ingredients - its just laziness most of the time) and high-sugar sweets and drinks (often purchased to shut kids up [which shows, to me, a general lack of concern for their well-being]);
• Computer/console games (see above about kids);
• Driving their children to schools, etc within walking distance (yes, sometimes, this is required because they need to go to work, but again often its laziness, as I've seen some who organise rotas for parents to walk small children in groups to school, or get the assistance of neighbours/older children going there in they all work) and going shopping in their cars any distance over 100m away from home. What a waste of fuel;
• Expensive satellite/cable TV, internet and mobile phone packages - my 'middle class' family do perfectly OK without any of these;
• People running older (or not) expensive German cars that they really can't afford to run just to keep up with the neighbours/work colleagues/friends (showing off);
• People not buying clothing that lasts or buying expensive stuff to show off;
• People who don't like being associated with being 'thrifty' (being associated with being cheapskates), whether this be buying decent items only when they are (required and) on good offers and keeping track of spending generally (budgeting) - too much 'hard work', as it often involved research (more 'am I bovvered').

With a lot more common sense all-around and better management, we could do a whole lot more a whole lot better for a lot less. You don't have to lead a boring life, but, as previous generations (my parents and grandparents) learned, if you don't have that much money, then you need to wise up and often be creative. Its certainly helped me get through some very hard times, especially over the last 10 years. You also feel a sense of accomplishment from your hard work, rather than having to rely on others, and especially the State.

Sadly that attutude is less common in younger generations, especially the 18-40 crowd, as evidenced by how many of them voted for Corbyn and his bunch of idiot Marxists cronies, despite their whole ethos being thoroughly demolished decades ago. Probably because most of today's 'Tories' aren't real Tories, but Blaitites under a different name, and who are managing decline in our country.