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I know computers dont drink alcohol, or fall asleep but they have been known to have bouts of unintended, stupid and dangerous behaviour especially when presented with new scenarios that the programmers and hardware designers never anticipated or poorly designed. And with the very likely prospects of hacking we could be handing a useful weapon into certain individuals hands.
This is is what can happen with 2 lorries and another vehicle gets involved.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/26/several-die-cr.../
Tragedy.
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I can only assume that this will be introduced on April 1st....???
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The Government should use more energy punishing those responsible for scenes such as on the M1 which brum linked us to there. It's not tragedy it's stupidity and it never seems to stop.
Lorry drivers in particular are concerning. I've met plenty of them via my work and most of them are okay, but an alarming minority are the sort of imbeciles you hear about with laptops, televisions and roast dinners all on the go while driving.
It wasn't that long ago they had the story of the one who was staring at his phone and piled into the back of a queue of traffic, killing someone. On that basis you have to like the principle of taking the lorry driver out of the lorry but this proposal isn't the solution.
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I think the "can't possibly work " lobby are in for a big shock.
Go back 20-30 years and the same would have been said by many about:
- satnav which can locate position to within a few feet, and generate a 500 mile route to a new destination (generally correctly) in seconds.
- Skype allowing me to video call anyone anywhere with an internet connection
- internet on the move
- cashless society if you want it
- automatic parking capability, lane, control and emergency braking
- several hundred media channels - most of which are a waste of time
Nothing about driverless vehicles is fundamentally new technology. It just needs work to make the technology perform better than human beings. The question is not if but when.
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None of that stuff you list there is dangerous. Controlling two following lorries' speed with a wi-fi connection from the first lorry is dangerous, stupid and unnecessary.
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There's nothing stupid about the idea of moving over to electric cars.
On the other hand, allowing experiments with driverless lorries is scary. The concept seems to be that several 'driverless' vehicles would follow one being driven by a real driver.
In this country we don't allow lorries to pull more than one trailer - e.g. double-artic. There have been calls to legalise them and one was trialled a few years ago. If the government doesn't see fit to allow double-artics, how can it be sensible to allow a lorry to have another vehicle following it automatically with no physical connection at all?
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It is quite wrong to assume concern about new technology has not been related to dangers.
The steam train was expected to make cattle barren and cause famine. There was also concern that the human body could not take the stress of traveling at over 30mph.
Cars used to be preceded by a man carrying a red flag to warn other users.
We rely utterly on computers to deal with money and logistics. There's no back up plan - within 2/4 days shelves would be empty and within 2/4.weeks the country would be subject to martial law and extreme public disorder.
Without IT military systems and weapons would be rendered ineffective. Planes would be unable to fly or fall out of the sky.
We accept these risks because relying on technology gives huge benefits. Electric cars and driverless technologies will do the same, the only question being when.
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If the proposal here was driverless lorries then you may have a point but the idea being put forward is having a human driven lorry controlling the speed of two following lorries via a wi-fi connection. That is a stupid idea.
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Lets hope volvo isnt involved
youtu.be/o9O-aejD0vI
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Eventually, and a long way into the future, vehicles will probably become autonomous, when the technology has developed further to eliminate the risk of unforeseen circumstances leading to disastrous outcomes. The ultimate goal of driverless vehicles is to enable them to travel from one place to another automatically.
The lorry convoy thing is all about allowing several lorries to automatically tailgate a leading lorry driven by a human driver. In test condidtions, when all the parameters of the vehicles involved can be matched, that might work. But in the real world vehicles with different braking distances would be expected to work together.
If the tailgating technology finds its way onto production vehicles, it will still be a feature that can be activated by a driver when they choose. I would guess that most drivers would choose not to use it like a lot of car drivers switch off stop / start because they don't like it.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 27/08/2017 at 00:47
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We have the best alternative to the stupid driverless trucks.
They are called trains.
One driver and a HUGE load of merchandise delivered anywhere across our country. WOW
The government continues to show its ignorance and stupidity. This will all end badly.
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Trains are 19th century technology and wholly unsuited for modern infrastructures:
They require a network of freight yards at start and end termini
Lorries will need to take them from factory and deliver to end customer
Probably needs standardised container sizes
Ports will probably need new rail links into the rail network
Network may need separate tracks to avoid conflict with passenger network
Goods handled at least three times, not once
The alternative way to use the rail network efficiently is automated containers from factory to freight yard with automated scheduling and loading. Most of the other weaknesses of expanding the rail network remain.
Only real benefit from the extra expense is likely to be reduced way traffic volumes - it would be better to spend the money on roads that can benefit everyone, not just freight services.
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I'd agree trains are an outdated relic when it comes to passenger transport. I'm 33 years old and for my entire life I've heard about how billions are going to be invested in the train network, but every week there's something on the news suggesting it's no better. Overcrowded, unreliable, journies taking 7 hours when a car would do it in 1. I really do think they should give up on trains, at least in this country as we obviously can't do it.
Trains are however useful for freight I'd argue - and a lot of freight already goes on the trains if you've ever actually seen the trains which go in and out of the major container ports, they're about 100 containers long. Freight is often the same stuff going to the same places at the same times, so a train works well for that.
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disagree for passenger transport... look at China, gone from zero to hero with train travel, France with it's fast trains, Japan, Germany, even the UK, I regularly use the HS1 to get to central London in a way car travel would take considerably longer. HS2 and HS3 will be the same ... even down to the excessive cost aspect.
Look up your history books, nearly every train opeator who built new lines went bust .. but then the legacy was sucessful, (even the link to France in our days).
I agree about freight, much more needs to be done to get it onto the trains, certainly a trains service for HGV's from the Midlands to Calais would be of immense benefit, less congestion, less pollution, safer for all but probably difficult to bring about unless there is legislation to make it be used, still need to pay the HGV driver so the fare must not exceed the cost of fuel & wear & tear on the vehicle and journey time / train frequency will have to make it time efficient.
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Only real benefit from the extra expense is likely to be reduced way traffic volumes - it would be better to spend the money on roads that can benefit everyone, not just freight services.
Are you advocating building more roads? God help us, there are quite enough already. And trains do benefit people. Unfortunately (and I'm sure plenty of people will be along to disagree), Beeching and Marples decided that roads would be superior to railways and took out half of the useful links that would have made a lot of sense today if they had been kept.
The government have a pretty poor track record of spending on the roads now., let alone the future.
I know this is a motorists forum, and I'm interested in all things engineering, cars included, but I can see that they're becoming a serious problem due to the sheer number of them linked to a growing population.
The fact that we have to think of ways of linking vehicles together shows that we're getting too big for our boots, living our unsustainable lives. Cars have only been around for the last 130 years and they're already becoming obsolete.
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Long befpre any of these lucrative experiments bear any fruit there will be some reckoning, as Corax says we've become too big for our boots, too many roads and far too many vehicles, unfortunately our biggie is too many people already crammed onto a tiny island and more piling in every day and that is why we need so much commercial transportation, which the railways will never cope with.
We'll be having a reckoning alright, but i fear it won't be quite the gentle orderly shift from fossil fuels to nuclear/renewaable electricity, nor will the environmental benefits of futile experiments in platooning be of any consequence when the quangos and hangers of have finally finished spending someone elses (our) money on this cobblers.
We won't be carrying on as we are, and nor will the rest of western europe, what's coming will change our lives and those of our childen forever, if you can't feel it bubbling away under the surface nor see the changes for yourselves in how you conduct your lives or choose where you go to, then i suggest you avoid the mainstream versions of news and current affairs for a while and start to think again.
It won't be an electric car you'll wish for to travel safely around in, it will be something rather tougher and more likely to protect you as the shifts happen.
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I reckon we should connect more than three HGV’s together,
Why not fiftyor more? Then, why not call them a train? put them on tracks
and get them off our roads!
I say this after a return journey from Cheshire to Essex, suffering halfwits overtaking
Each other for miles at + half a mile an hour or pulling out in
Front of me without indicating
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Perhaps there is some truth in this. The need for movement of freight will not reduce, although the processes could be much slicker. But but the demand for travel may.reduce.
100+ years ago people rarely moved far from their home town or village. Two world wars and the growth of commuter land changed aspirations and expectations. A little over 50 years ago air travel became accessible.
The genie is well and truly out of the bottle. But it is possible that the cost, unpleasantness and couch potato mentality could see demand fall.
Air travel used to be an exciting experience, now it's a complete pain in the .......... Shopping is now best undertaken on line. Contacts with friends and families is conducted through Facebook.
I am not sure I like this future - but I won't be around long enough to be greatly impacted!
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Two world wars and the growth of commuter land changed aspirations and expectations. A little over 50 years ago air travel became accessible. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle. But it is possible that the cost, unpleasantness and couch potato mentality could see demand fall. Air travel used to be an exciting experience, now it's a complete pain in the .......... Shopping is now best undertaken on line. Contacts with friends and families is conducted through Facebook. I am not sure I like this future - but I won't be around long enough to be greatly impacted!
Quite so. The very things that were supposed to be make our lives easier, more convenient and pleasurable now seem to be giving us more stress.
Regarding air travel, I find it hypocritical that the government wants us to buy new, cleaner cars to supposedly cut emissions, yet at the same time subsidises jet fuel (one jumbo burns a gallon of fuel a second and uses 36000 gallons on a ten hour flight) and has plans to expand airports.
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In case you have not noticed our roads are overloaded, and traffic speeds are slower than they were 30 years ago, and the government does not seem interested in expanding the network to cope. Opening the emergency lane as the fourth lane on a motorway will not make a big difference.
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Are you advocating building more roads? God help us, there are quite enough already.
I think Gordon is closer in stating there's too many people in such a small country, that's the main issue but I'd still disagree with the idea that there's quite enough roads. The road network in this country is quite appalling having seen pathetic low levels of investment for decades and expected to continually meet the demands of a country which keeps getting bigger.
The A14 is a case in point, I use it regularly and it's a major route for lorries with one arriving at and leaving from the Port of Felixstowe probably every 15 seconds and it's still only a dual carraigeway all the way to the Midlands. That's absolutely ridiculous, it should be four lanes on each side at an absolute minimum given the work it's expected to do.
The motorway network is pathetically small, proven by the fact it rarely moves. The M25 was designed for around 80,000 vehicles a day and was carrying 200,000 a day less than 10 years after opening and a similar story can be found on other major motorways.
Most of the motorway network dates back around 40 years and a lot of the other inferstructure dates from the Victorian era and we expect this to serve the needs of a country which lets an extra 200,000 people come and live in it every 12 months. They keep piling housing estates onto the edges of towns which used to be small and expect a 40 year old road to cope.
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We sometimes drive to a big Ikea store in Rennes, about 85 miles door to door from our little hamlet out in the sticks. Newish dual carriageway all the way, no roundabouts, no traffic lights, apart from our 10 minute drive to get on it, very little traffic our end , gets busier near Rennes but no tailbacks.
It usually takes us about an hour and a half not hurrying.
Back roads are fairly decent, dual carriageways are pretty good, no road tax over here and no road tolls in Brittany.
The UK is an overcrowded ant's nest by comparison.
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No surprise there: France has about the same population as the UK - c. 60m - but something like three times the geographical area. Generally I agree: the UK is appallingly over-populated, although we can comfort ourselves - I think I have the figures about right - that only 5% or so of England, 2.5% of the UK, is built-up.
But it depends where you are in the UK: I can't complain here in north Dorset. I can drive 2 or 3 miles to play the organ in a neighbouring village church, as I did today, or walk a few hundred yards to the church, or indeed the pub, in this village, and not see another car between the villages.
Edited by Avant on 28/08/2017 at 01:20
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Avant you make it sound wonderfully quaint!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096
The above article concludes 2.27% of the country is built on so with that in mind I could never subscribe to the idea that we've got enough roads and people who flippantly say 'oh they've concreted over everything' are clearly wrong.
70 million people mainly crammed into 2.27% of the country and we wonder why people are stressed all the time.
You're right that it depends on where you live. When me and my then-girlfriend went to Wales last year we were astonished by how there didn't seem to be anybody there. Rush hour was three cars at a roundabout.
I live in Suffolk which in my lifetime has become more 'popular' and gentrified. Back when London first got too expensive to live in, people moved out into places like Essex and you got the 'commuter belt' effect. Well now even Essex is too expensive so they're branching out even further beyond the home counties. Towns in Suffolk which people never used to care about are now full up with thousands more rabbit hutch style homes in the pipeline.
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I live in Suffolk which in my lifetime has become more 'popular' and gentrified. Back when London first got too expensive to live in, people moved out into places like Essex and you got the 'commuter belt' effect. Well now even Essex is too expensive so they're branching out even further beyond the home counties. Towns in Suffolk which people never used to care about are now full up with thousands more rabbit hutch style homes in the pipeline.
There is and was an entirely different reason for the massive departure of so many from those city areas, and cost wasn't the prime one, or the so many million new city dwellers, most of whom hadn't got a bean, wouldn't be living there.
This isn't just a London thing, many of the large cities have seen the same flight, which has led to surrounding suburbs villages and small towns becoming reassuringly expensive enough to be safe, for the time being, havens.
The great experiment hasn't worked, anyone who knows what these cities were like 40 or more years ago could tell you that, but the answer from our leaders is more of the same, anyone who objected saw their political career destroyed, and those with good careers outside politics learned to shut up too.
Not blaming the leaders alone, the electorate put them there and did so time and again so presumably wanted what has become, but future elections in certain areas will see a different sort of politics, we've seen this in many instances in recent years already.
Some here won't like this post, but i've tried to be as delicate as i can, there already are many areas most posters from here wouldn't venture to unless absolutely necessary and they'd be even more cautious taking certain members of their family with them, if anyone thinks this situation is going to get any better they are going to be disappointed.
Our grandchildren will not forgive us for failing to defend our Jerusalem, though luckily they'll never (be allowed to) know what it was like because they will go through the education system, and anyone or any book/film who/that isn't on message will be, as at our beacons of learning, no platformed.
Edited by gordonbennet on 28/08/2017 at 07:04
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Driverless lorries are the next (logical?) link in the chain of "development". The rot started with conductorless buses and continued with cashierless banks, (almost) staffless shops, hourless contracts and finally the crowning glory of inhabitantless investment properties (used to be called homes) in the capital. Brought to us by hopeless, brainless politicians.
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Driverless lorries are the next (logical?) link in the chain of "development". The rot started with conductorless buses and continued with cashierless banks, (almost) staffless shops, hourless contracts and finally the crowning glory of inhabitantless investment properties (used to be called homes) in the capital. Brought to us by hopeless, brainless politicians.
The best one in that line is self-serve supermarkets - it takes far longer to 'do it yourself' and how often does the machines throw a wobbly? Most can't even differentiate between a carrier bag and a (for example) rucsack in the 'bagging area' even though they have scale built in. Mostly they need at least a couple of staff to keep entering override codes to keep the queue moving. How do the people who think up these hair-brained schemes get to their lofty positions?
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Driverless lorries are the next (logical?) link in the chain of "development". The rot started with conductorless buses and continued with cashierless banks, (almost) staffless shops, hourless contracts and finally the crowning glory of inhabitantless investment properties (used to be called homes) in the capital. Brought to us by hopeless, brainless politicians.
The best one in that line is self-serve supermarkets - it takes far longer to 'do it yourself' and how often does the machines throw a wobbly? Most can't even differentiate between a carrier bag and a (for example) rucsack in the 'bagging area' even though they have scale built in. Mostly they need at least a couple of staff to keep entering override codes to keep the queue moving. How do the people who think up these hair-brained schemes get to their lofty positions?
On the other hand, online banking and online shopping (not groceries) are a boon as it saves going anywhere.
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On the other hand, online banking and online shopping (not groceries) are a boon as it saves going anywhere.
...assuming they've got the correct level of security and don't get all our details stolen by hackers or leave them on a laptop on a train...
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On the other hand, online banking and online shopping (not groceries) are a boon as it saves going anywhere.
...assuming they've got the correct level of security and don't get all our details stolen by hackers or leave them on a laptop on a train...
No different from buying in store or banking in person - you still need the secuirity to be properly in place.
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On the other hand, online banking and online shopping (not groceries) are a boon as it saves going anywhere.
Internet shopping is a boon. I've lost count of the number of obscure, specialist things that I've bought that would have been unobtainable by trawling around the shops in the local area.
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Doing away with drivers and replacing with robots is going to cause even more job problems, lots cant get jobs now, so whats going to happen when all paid drivers lose their jobs
and with the government saying more people are in work now than ever before, I wonder what planet they are on cos it aint the real world
electric vehicles are fair enough,(Climate change and all that) but to lose drivers to computers is one step too far imo
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and with the government saying more people are in work now than ever before, I wonder what planet they are on cos it aint the real world
There are more people working but for peanuts and on zero hour contracts - looks good for governments annual records.
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and with the government saying more people are in work now than ever before, I wonder what planet they are on cos it aint the real world
There are more people working but for peanuts and on zero hour contracts - looks good for governments annual records.
True, and there needs to be recognition of the true economic and social value of jobs. There are no employment taxes on robots - maybe there should be.
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Just wait until someone invents the transporter, there won't be any need for cars/lorries,
"energise"
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Just wait until someone invents the transporter, there won't be any need for cars/lorries,
"energise"
Scientists say 100 to 200 years before that will be possible, even though one atom has been beamed onto a satelite already, but takes a lot of current to make it happen
I`ve been tryng to find a report that said lead acid batteries are being tested and appear to be able to store 6-8 times the power for longer than Li ion batteries in a smaller unit size
that includes making connectors between cells more efficient and faster at transfering electricity from one cell to the other, a university is carrying out research into this, if it works we wont be reliant on li ion batteries for electric cars
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On the other hand, online banking and online shopping (not groceries) are a boon as it saves going anywhere.
Internet shopping is a boon. I've lost count of the number of obscure, specialist things that I've bought that would have been unobtainable by trawling around the shops in the local area.
Agree with the above....However I have just had a request off PayPal for more identification verification info for my account (apparently this is bieng Rolled out to all account holders) they are asking for a copy of Photo id along with copies of utility bills) I gracefully declined as I am very carefull who holds my photo id details, and no it wasnt a scam, I contact their verified helpline, to be told...basicly nothing...so I closed the account. perhaps I am bieng a bit old school but...hey ho.
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On the other hand, online banking and online shopping (not groceries) are a boon as it saves going anywhere.
Internet shopping is a boon. I've lost count of the number of obscure, specialist things that I've bought that would have been unobtainable by trawling around the shops in the local area.
Agree with the above....However I have just had a request off PayPal for more identification verification info for my account (apparently this is bieng Rolled out to all account holders) they are asking for a copy of Photo id along with copies of utility bills) I gracefully declined as I am very carefull who holds my photo id details, and no it wasnt a scam, I contact their verified helpline, to be told...basicly nothing...so I closed the account. perhaps I am bieng a bit old school but...hey ho.
Not old school just carefull, as far as I`m concerned too many companies get hacked because sucurity is terrible, paypal is one I do not trust regardless of how secure their systems are- or claim to be!
I only used them once, and got fed up with constant emails reminding me I`d used them and to open an account, if I want one I will open one....
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“sandy56
In case you have not noticed our roads are overloaded, and traffic speeds are slower than they were 30 years ago, and the government does not seem interested in expanding the network to cope. Opening the emergency lane as the fourth lane on a motorway will not make a big difference.”
The A6 in our area, Hazel Grove to Whaley Bridge, is a case in point – opposite point. The A6 is overloaded and if there is a blockage, caused by any reason, the tailbacks are horrendous. But, the authorities seem to be engaged in ‘traffic calming’ measures. This entails delays due to digging up the road and leaving the holes for weeks on end and nobody seems to be working. More road-works are forecast.
A few years ago there was a scheme mooted to build a by-pass road that would go through New Mills and cause the main local source of employment to close. There was a meeting held to which the public were invited and the scheme explained. The public responded with such ferocity at their homes being demolished to make way for the by-pass, and their source of employment closed, that the scheme was ‘shelved’.
Now the impression is given that the delays due to the work on the A6 are planned to form opinion in support of the new by-pass.
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