Yep, just got one and maybe two more on the way!!!!!! Ain't driven any distance from N. Devon for years and got knobbled two weeks ago doing 38mph. Dual carriageway, traffic lights everywhere, but poorly lit and blah blah blah etc etc. So I've got it and that's that..................Now, did I recall recently an ongoing case (test case) I believe, where the defendant was suggesting that he/she/they did not have to incriminate themselves. Does anyone know anything about this and has a precedent been established. I didn't actually realise that you can't concentrate on the driving anymore.
MD.
p.s. Flashed front front. Violet light. Quite shocking actually.
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Take lrgal advice but maybe a well known Cheshire Solicitor might be booked out solid for a few months.
See yesterday's posts
There is a website (Pepipoo or similar spelling that covers all this - google it - it must come up)
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It's called a PACE note. www.pepipoo.com me thinks
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I am going down the PACE route at the moment. To get the full benefit from Pepipoo you will have to take out a 3 month sub for (I think) £12.95. This will give you access to prepared tamplates, statements and letters which you can send. Basically, you send the NIP back with a separate letter giving all the details requested on the NIP and stating that the information is being given under threat and duress and this is against the provisions of PACE. You then ignore everything threatening that comes back to you, until a summons arrives and you then send another letter requesting deferrment of the court hearing, on the basis that the PACE defence is being ruled on in the High Court in UK and their ruling will be delayed until the EU CHR has ruled. e mail me for further details if you wish.
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Thank you A.S. Am thinking about all this carefully. Is it a fine and three points for this or just a fine.
best regards..........MD.
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Points and fine. The points and fine depends on the speed limit and how fast you were going. If you were doing 38 in 30 then it's 3 points and £60 fine.
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To expand slightly on the PACE thing. If you fill in the NIP you are incriminating your self without caution ie making a statement ,and if you don't fill it in you are guilty of witholding information - the penalty is the same in either case! If you are going to make a statement you should be told "You do not have to say anything. Anything you do say etc etc etc" Going the PACE way you are coomplying with the requirement to identify the driver but in a form which may (or may not!) protect you from conviction! How do you feel about going to court to fight your corner? It could be a long journey, at your own expense! However with the number of NIPs you have coming, some sort of action is needed.
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I could understand this effort if you weren't actually speeding and you'd been wrongly accused, but actually you have broken the speed limit and got caught, so wouldn't it be a lot simpler just to admit it, take the points and maybe pay a bit more attention in future?
I'm not a strong advocate of speed cameras one way or the other, but it's not as if speed cameras are invisible is it? I'm not looking for a huge debate about whether or not speed limits or cameras should be there, just saying that if you've broken the law, you should take the rap. I speak from experience - there was a time when my licence was far from clean, so this isn't a holier than thou opinion.
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PG I totally agree. OP has unfortunately been caught speed and should deal with it and not try to evade consequences. If we all did that in life then ....
More worrying is he thinks he has another two NIP's on the way, presumably after seeing a flash from a camera. But the first camera flash should have made him realise he (1) drives too fast and (2) cannot see a speed camera. And therefore should drive more carefully.
If he has one, and two on the way, then very quickly he'll be reliant on public transport.
I remember a colleage being stopped doing 47mph in a 30mph zone (near a school as well). Police asked him how fast he was going etc. and he basically said he thought it was a 40. But he was doing 47 so was speeding for even a 40 zone. He was lucky and got the standard 3 points and fine.
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IMO there are two things at stake here.
One which we can all agree on is road safety. Speed needs to be kept down for a reason.
The other issue is a cornerstone of our less than perfect criminal justice system. I say less than perfect because no criminal justice system is perfect, but ours is arguably quite good compared to those of some other countries. Many here seem to overlook that. If we allow ourselves to be done over wrt to this right, it will eventually be eroded and we'll find that the legislators see a meek law abiding section of the british public that are prepared to have their rights sapped away over time. NO THANKS!
What we need here is some kind of judicial review of how this system should work in conjunction with the criminal justice system. It's a sorry state when a car theif can own up to a crime without being properly cautioned and effectively get away with it on a technicality, whereas Martin is obliged to cough up the info with no caution, no rights at all and is expected to lie down and take it.
Words "cat" and "pigeons " come to mind
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I will keep this as short as I can - I have posted along these lines last year. We have a system which lays down laws by which we have to abide, or face the consequences. Further to this, it is laid down how people shall be cautioned, make statements if they wish to, and be tried in court or by some other process, to determine their guilt or innocence. If we break the law we might be apprehended and if we are we shall probably be charged. If the authorities responsible for handling this cannot or do not comply with the laid down procedures - laid down by the authorities by the way, not us, then the prosecution will fail and rightly so. Broadly speaking, statements made when not under caution are not admissible in evidence. I have received a NIP, I am not happy with the way these things are handled and I am fighting it because I am old, bolshie and have nothing better to do with my time and/or money! It is a silly game, there are two sides involved and I am not going to give them a bye into the next round!
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The Talivan parked on the pavement who got me going downhill over 30 must have had badly clibrated equipment as they said I was going faster than I was. The NIP didn't state the speed, amazingly, they're not obliged to apparently! There was no speeding course offered as an alternative etc. I've notice them parked in strategically placed positions to catch people when a national speed limit road (60 in this single carriageway) restricts to a 30! They don't have to justify themselves really; the calibration certificate is not worth the paper it's written on and get's (re)produced at will. Cynical? Maybe. It was a lot better when patrol cars/officers would have a word with you and use their common sense! With all these stealth taxes, no wonder there are so many illegal drivers in unregistered, uninsured, untested and untaxed cars.
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Whilst I agree that you should be taking it on the chin, we mst ensure that the SCPs follow 'due' process - hence check that NIP was issued (ie posted) within 14 days of the offence, and by 1st class post. Not all are, and if not they are invalid.....
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Hugq and A S, I agree with both of you.
I hear on the news that the man who cold bloodedly clubbed his parents to death and was arrested at the scene after a police seige is to plead not guilty. The "due process" will now mean pschiatric reports, all and sundry jumping on the band waggon etc. The CPS will now have to prove him guilty. He was caught "bang to rights", as some will say the speed camera does, but even for a major crime he can plead not guilty. It seems right to me that the perpetrator of a lesser "crime" should be able to put up a fight in the same way and not be effectively forced to roll over and give up.
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Not a topic I get into much but chatting with a friend last night who "claims" they genuinely can't remember who was driving when caught by a camera 10 days ago. Busy busy family day on holiday apparently with shared use of a car... so they say.
Let's forget the issue of them telling the truth or not. What is the official process if you are honestly unable to put down the driver on the form? Can you request a picture that will show it?
MM
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Ask Neil and Christine Hamilton! They got away with this line. The fact is that, if you say you have made every effort to determine who was driving at the time and can't get a result ,that should be the end of the matter. You obviously can't guess because you might then be making what is a effectively a sworn statement which might be false. Normally you don't get a picture until a court case and if it was a GATSO, taking the rear of the car it won't help. If it was a Truevlo or a Talevan the picture might enable one to determine who was driving (beard/no beard etc!)
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So you can request an image... and if it shows a bead it's the missus for sure?
MM
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Even though the OP was speeding, he should still fight the state's move towards mechanised/computerised/automatic policing. If the Police had have stopped him at the side of the road at the time of the offence and in the same environment, cautioned him, and listened to his explanation before deciding on what action to take then I would say' it's a fair cop gov'.
If the government want to install computers and cameras to scrutinise every every day activity and send automatic fines in the post two weeks later using very shaky legal procedures, then I say fight them, the law is on your side. Our forefathers saw a day when we might have a government such as this and put measure in place to protect us in law, what a shame people are letting this protection go without a murmur.
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Yes, you can 'request' an image buy you may not get one. They may say that you will get one if you got to court. You can request one earlier, as the prosecution are meant to disclose their 'evidence' pre-trial, and you can't prepare your defence with out it. This could lead to an adjournment. Re the photo, it is good enough to determine the sex of the person driving, and you say it was either you or your wife, then they have the answer and so do you!
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This sort of post seems to do circles doesn?t it, but here goes again?because it?s important.
I agree with the above re having a decent legal system compared to the rest of the world and that means we should ensure..1, it is properly complied with AND ...2,the legislation is appropriate in the first place.
1, with what has happened to MD and others, the basic principle is that when you are suspected of an offence you are cautioned and the caution starts " you do not have to say anything......" and relates to you not having to incriminate yourself. In other words it is up to the state to prove you've done wrong, not you to prove you haven't. This is what the PACE statement hoo-hah is about and rightly so................it's not just about getting off offences, it's about the law of the land being complied with by all, inc the state.
2, the second part is the offence of speeding. There are many many offences on the statute books that are utterly ignored by all, inc the police and judiciary, because; - they have become ridiculous and out of date or - have always been extremely minor or - are not worthy of consideration at that time, but you might consider it with different circumstances?. It is still an offence to break it though isn't it, although common sense has to come in.
In some people's minds.....inc mine......... some speed limits have come into disrepute, because they are naturally set very low to combat the worst conditions that could apply on that road e.g. wet, unthinking driver, poorly maintained car, kids on way to school etc........ at other times e.g. dry sunny morning, early hours, kids not present, decent driver and car etc there is no real problem.........cameras zap everyone with no discretion, cops have discretion and should/could use it.
Variable speed limits are the only answer. Slow down in the wet, slow down when kids are on way/coming out of school etc....
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i'd also like to add that to some people blind obedience of the law no matter what, is easier for them, because they don't have to think too much, are often not all that aware & can become bored..........however those that drive at a speed appropriate to the conditions and constantly vary it, do think (they have to), are aware and are not so bored..
which one will react better in an emergency?
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"Re the photo, it is good enough to determine the sex of the person driving, and you say it was either you or your wife, then they have the answer and so do you!"
No law against cross-dressing yet, I believe...
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No but the beard would still be a giveaway!
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What the PACE argument overlooks is that IF they proove that the law is at fault the law will be changed so it is not.
Success WILL NOT result in removal of the cameras or change the system.
The ONLY way to get rid of the cameras is to comply with the speed limits - no revenue, nothing to pay the staff , whole system falls apart - no more cameras,
I have been caught twice (so far) 81 in 70 and 35 in 30. Guilty on both so why fight the system! As I understand it in many areas the PACE letter just results in a summons to court where you are asked the question under oath - I value my time more than to waste it in fighting lost causes! Now if I were on 9 points I might feel differently - but I would make damn sure I stayed within the limits as well.
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But if we just do nothing then we will sleepwalk into a world of Big Brother ala todays news. Nowhere else in the world is anywhere as bad, even China from my experience. The problem is the British character will just take it and take it and then explode instead of having a more managed approach. It's the same with everything - housing, immigration, economy, youth.
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Summons to court to be charged with what? They can't prove you were the driver, you can be silent in court and the information you have given in your PACE statement cannot be used against you as that is a condition under which it was supplied. The whole matter is going thru the High Court and EU CHR - until that is decided there can be no action against anyone who has supplied a PACE statement SFAIK. I value my time highly enough to spend it ,and my money, fighting incorrectly applied 'law', improper police procedures and all the other dross that the system throws at us. Each to their own!
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Ever so slightly off post, I recall a guy who got done for exceeding the limit and then a bit further down the road got done again. He already had some points on his licence and would have been banned. However, his defence was that this was not two seperate speeding offences, but the second one was mearly a continuation of the first. Anyone know if this defence was successful?
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My father was done, by real life coppers, for speeding 3 different speed limits, only got three points because the court said that hte coppers should've stopped him in the first limit.
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Which case are you referring to?
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Which case is who referring to? Can't answer without more info!
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Flat view is a problem!
AS, it was the case you referred to in "... the information you have given in your PACE statement cannot be used against you as that is a condition under which it was supplied. The whole matter is going thru the High Court and EU CHR".
What case is that?
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Stevie
Lakland 44-02 Sunburst
Yamaha YTS-23
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Failing to complete the NIP ?
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">I am fighting it because I am old, bolshie and have nothing better to do with my time and/or money<"
Perfectly reasonable ;-)
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