>>I'm sure that owners of the upcoming Mondeo will be in for a real treat as result of sharing this platform.>>
But the Mondeo has always been an above average driver's car from its 1993 launch, so presumably the S-Max chassis is a real cracker?
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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True, but that of it's own accord didn't mean that the subsequent brand new chassis would be as competent or better. A drive in a MkIV Golf Gti was a bitter disappointment proving that new isn't always forward. The sorted chassis of the S-Max is a positive indicator right now for potential purchasers of the Mondeo, as the Touran was for the MkV Golf and if there are any bugs they'll have a chance to sort them out before then.
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>>>which leads to remarkable economies of scale.<<
Ah "economies of scale" - the enemy of lean manufacturing and the down fall of the US motoring industry.
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Just to elaborate on the economies of scale V lean manufacturing debate - that probabaly also explains why VW's factories are on their knees in terms of productivity and companies like Toyota continue to make huge profits and can't open factories quick enough at the moment.
I'm not saying that people do not want VW's - clearly they do but their productivity rate is woeful relative to the Japanese factories who steer well away from economies of scale.
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You?ll also have to tell me what your point is here as well. What does the productivity rate have to do with whether platform-sharing is a brand cheapener or marketing genius? I also don?t see how this addresses the deficiencies in your suggestion that a potential purchaser would be best choosing the cheapest example on any platform as they are all the same car? Why not stick with discussing these points?
Looking at the latest UK figures, surely steady positive sales growth YTD across VAG brands speaks for itself, just as negative sales growth YTD reflects on the relative success of Toyota and Honda in this market. It is true that VW, like most of the older car manufacturers has had to deal with engrained management, social policies, costly workforce and structural problems but everything I?ve read indicates that they are making progress on this, so fair play to them. Both parties have lessons to learn in that VAG needs to improve productivity and Toyota and Honda need to make their cars more desirable to UK consumers and I hope that they both succeed for the good of the industry and the punter.
To reduce the platform sharing model used by VAG, Ford and GM to a matter of economies of scale is simplistic and misses the point. The model is a holistic approach and the benefits gained in productivity, cost and product customization have seen it adopted by many market leaders across the manufacturing spectrum. This isn?t the right forum for this and I?m sending myself to sleep but if you want to know more I suggest that you look up recombinant modularity and prepare to be riveted.
Please tell me that this isn?t still about you and your VAG thing?
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They aren't all the same any hows. They share the same 'platform' and have similar technology and engineering-but they all look different, both inside and out, and probably feel somewhat different to drive. To say someone ought to get the Skoda because it's the same as a Golf, but cheaper therefore the best choice, is wrong.
It's like taking two identical houses in the same street, decorating them completely differently and then insisting that anyone who likes one but not the other is wrong, because they are fundementally the same.
It;s down to preference, and money.
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It's like taking two identical houses in the same street, decorating them completely differently and then insisting that anyone who likes one but not the other is wrong, because they are fundementally the same.
I was wth you up to that sentence.
If I was looking at houses which were otherwise identical but one was decorated horribly, I'd take the horrible one in a heartbeat if it was cheaper. The first thing anyone does when they buy a new house is rip out the decorating and start over anyway.
As for the Skoda vs VW debate, are Skodas so cheap any more anyway? I see them as being on par with any other make in terms of cost really -- it's more that VWs are vastly overpriced when you add all the "extras" that come as standard on a humble Kia.
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>>What does the productivity rate have to do with whether platform-sharing is a brand cheapener or marketing genius<<
It has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I was responding to a statement on economies of scale that Gromit posted above - Gromit do us a favour and explain to Martin Sweeney what economies of scale have to do with this thread. I think I know but he is struggling.
>>A bit of envy Type s?>>
Not really Dox - I always buy based on relaibility and customer satisfaction so VAG can sell as many brands as they like for me.
I think I have said before the type s and Golf GTI were my shortlist on this occaission and Honda stole on it on the relaibility front. The CBCB will explain why.
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>>Looking at the latest UK figures, surely steady positive sales growth YTD across VAG brands speaks for itself, just as negative sales growth YTD reflects on the relative success of Toyota and Honda in this market. It is true that VW, like most of the older car manufacturers has had to deal with engrained management, social policies, costly workforce and structural problems but everything I?ve read indicates that they are making progress on this<<
The thing you fail to understand is that everyone thinks that Toyota and Honda have come along with their new fangled manufacturing ideas. Toyota's production system started life in the 1950's and just continually gets imrpoved. It is not new. What's happening now is that other car makers are realising it is hugely succesful and are imitating it. Toyota are not asking their workers to work longer for the same pay as VW are - they already make cars profitably.
Toyota are world number 2 soon to be number 1 in terms of vehicle sales. And you think their success relative to VW is negative ?? Wow - strange thought process.
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Their sales success i n our market, the UK, YTD is negative. You still haven't shown how your comments on productivity are relevant to the point made in the OP. Again you would do better to lost the attitude and produce something relevant and substantial. It appears that Pologirl was right on the money on summing up the motivation behind this one.
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Their sales success i n our market, the UK, YTD is negative.
Probably nothing other than a blip in the ongoing success of Honda and Toyota.
The UK market seems to be uniquely brand sensitive - we as buyers get very hung up on brand image and it takes a very long time to sway our opinion. Compare that with, for example the US. Lexus launched there in around 1989 and immediately topped the satisfaction surveys. Sales went from strength to strength and now, if I recall correctly, the LS outsells the 7-series and the S-Class. UK (and mainland Europe) buyers are taking a lot longer to warm to Lexus. They are still seen by the man in the street as a poor man's BMW, when the reality is anything but. The story with the mainstream brands in the states goes back further, but I'm sure we all know that the Camry and Accord are consistent top sellers, and without having to offer the ridiculous incentives that the major US brands have to.
Incidentally, I read roughly the following in a stateside car mag early this year - "why do we love VWs, despite the poor build and sub-standard reliabilty? because of the way they drive." Almost the polar opposite of what we read here.
Would VAG be prepared to swap their clever platform sharing, strong UK market positon and struggling factories with Toyota's growing worldwide sales, lean manufacturing and mega profits? I think we know the answer to that one....
Back to the platform sharing - Seat is the brand that seems to be struggling the most with its identity. I'm not sure how their ambitions to be seen as the sporting arm of VAG fit in with the current midrange products - the MPV inspired Altea, Leon and Toledo. Platform-sharing, and the wide knowledge that this is the case, does do VAG a lot of good - VW and Audi seem unharmed by it, whilst Skoda and Seat appeal to buyers who want a VW but can't afford one. (I'm not saying that goes for all Skoda/Seat buyers but most people I know rate them because of the VW connection and the appeal of the VW brand).
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What?s a blip depends on your perspective how far you want to zoom out. The most accurate and relevant current UK sales data is this month?s, pull back to the last quarter, pull back again to YTD and the sales still show negative growth in this market. To be successful I would expect to see positive growth. I am not for one minute diminishing the historical or global success of Toyota but what I am doing is providing by pointing out the sales figures in the market we are in, is a counterbalance to and a degree of perspective on the off topic suggestion by the OP that VAG are running a hopeless production line which is on it?s knees whilst the likes of Honda and Toyota are sitting pretty.
?Would VAG be prepared to swap their clever platform sharing, strong UK market positon and struggling factories with Toyota's growing worldwide sales, lean manufacturing and mega profits? I think we know the answer to that one....? ? You can surmise all you want but I doubt that any of us do. VAG factories and global sales were doing very well last time I looked and I?m sure that a lot of people would be hoping that they don?t start producing Toyota clones and that we can maintain differentiation in the market.
?Skoda and Seat appeal to buyers who want a VW but can't afford one? It?s your opinion but I disagree, as they have models which are strong and instinctive in their own way. I can easily see someone looking at a Touran or a Golf and plumping for an Altea or Leon irrespective of price. Maybe you think that every Toyota driver desperately wanted a Lexus but just couldn?t afford it? I don?t subscribe to it.
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Their sales success i n our market, the UK, YTD is negative.
Who, honestly, gives a monkey's about sales figures in this country? We're insignificant compared to the world market.
In this country image is everything. Reliance on image is a euphemism for "can't be bothered to research what's the best product out there".
I'm sure VW would love it if the world were like the UK. If it were, VW would be producing cars with sub-Lada quality -- and getting away with it. BL did for years, until finally people in the UK got the message.
A silly little country with silly little ideas.
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?Who, honestly, gives a monkey's about sales figures in this country?? ? I?m guessing that as it?s one of the most profitable car markets in the world, probably the car manufacturers and many people in this country who depend on the industry. This silly little country is one of the richest in the world and we blow a chunk on expensive cars relative to many other countries. The rest of your post seems to be light on evidence and heavy on rant. What factual basis are you using?
Some people have silly ideas for sure but by and large I think it's a pretty good country with some great people.
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? I?m guessing that as it?s one of the most profitable car markets in the world, probably the car manufacturers and many people in this country who depend on the industry.
But it's also completely unrepresentative of the wider picture worldwide. When you have what will soon be the largest car manufacturer in the world as little more than a bit-player in the UK, what possible conclusions can you draw by looking at the UK in isolation?
As for "most profitable", surely this reflects exactly what I am saying -- the same cars are being sold here as in many other markets in Europe and around the globe, yet car manufacturers make more money here than elsewhere. This is in no small part down to the UK buyers' image obsession and willingness to continue to pay over the odds for the same product overseas buyers pay a lot less for. Part of this is our relative isolation as an island, but a lot of it is falling for the marketing-men's hype for certain products. And when we do find out about a car costing sometimes 25-30% less in Spain than here in the UK, we don't vote with our feet -- we grumble about it to ourselves and then go out and buy another one of the same model.
It's like the old nonsense about the EU. All the time we hear grumbling about leaving the EU, how it's no good for Britain (which is highly debatable but still). Yet every time a major party has stood on a Europhobic platform (Labour 1983, Tories 2001) they've been hammered in the election. Obviously not that important to people then is it?
countries. The rest of your post seems to be light on evidence and heavy on rant. What factual basis are you using?
I take it you are referring to the VW/Lada comment. Well look at it this way -- for as long as I can remember, a significant proportion of the best-selling cars in the land are the ones rooted to the bottom of the customer satisfaction surveys. People clearly don't give a stuff about quality, they just go with what they are told. Hyundai base their car on a 10 year old Japanese design -- ooh you don't want one of those, old recycled technology yada yada. Ford build the Escort/Fiesta, based on a 40-year-old engine design, with poor customer satisfaction across the board, not a peep out of these same people. Other markets around the world consider VW quality to be verging on unacceptable (the USA as referenced by Aprilia), but we're still locked into the image thing. It's markets like the USA that are keeping VW on the ball in quality terms, I am quite convinced that VW could take their quality significantly below French standards and still sell by the bucketload in the UK.
Anyway this is getting seriously off-topic, the basic point was that the UK<>the world.
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You'd fare better if you dropped the sneery attitude and discussed the points you raised in your OP. I and many others have suggested that there are some serious deficiencies in your arguments and that the cheap brand vs. marketing genius seems to come down on the side of genius. Why don't you actually comment on what are your points?
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>>You still haven't shown how your comments on productivity are relevant to the point made in the OP.<<
Martin I'm sorry if it is difficult for you but they are NOT relevant - Gromit raised a point on economies of scale so I just responded. But let me educate you in a non sneery way - just to help remember. I've switchted the sneery key off my computer. (you are such a sensitive bunny).
Right let's take this steady for you. Economies of scale (the point Gromit raised - nothing to do with me) are the fundamental principles behind the Henry Ford method of manufacturing flow. Toyoda and his team (before the Company was named as Toyota - they sold the loom business that made them the money to start car production and all that) studied and thought it was good. Unfortunately he did not have the volumes and hence the so called econmies of scale that everyone thought were good and so he introduced the start of the Toyota Production System including one piece flow and this is the principle behind all modern lean manufacturing. The fundamental starting point for the Toyota Production System (The machine that changed the world - it's a book) was based on the error proofing technique Toyoda introduced to the cotton weaving looms he subsequently sold to the UK in the late 1800's. He had no other choice because Ford had volume he did not - but what a breakthrough it was.
Now this has nothing to do with VW not making the same car many times (I told cheddar that in the other thread by the way so I'm with you mate) - it was an additional response to some discussion further up the thread.
Are you with me now ?
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>>Back to the platform sharing - Seat is the brand that seems to be struggling the most with its identity. I'm not sure how their ambitions to be seen as the sporting arm of VAG fit in with the current midrange products - the MPV inspired Altea, Leon and Toledo. Platform-sharing, and the wide knowledge that this is the case, does do VAG a lot of good - VW and Audi seem unharmed by it, whilst Skoda and Seat appeal to buyers who want a VW but can't afford one. (I'm not saying that goes for all Skoda/Seat buyers but most people I know rate them because of the VW connection and the appeal of the VW brand). <<
I totally agree bristolmotor, I did read somewhere that when the current VAG CEO took over from Piech he wanted to clarify the branding in peoples minds becasue of the huge amount of cross fertilisation in the products. I think he even said if people want a Golf let them buy a Golf not a different badged vehocle based on a Golf.
SEAT was supposed to be pitched against Alfa romea in his thinking - but then as you say proceeded to design MPV inspired products.
Subsequently the rpeorts we now read suggest his days are limited nd the current Porsche boss is being lined up to take over. Clealry the close ties with Piech and Porsche.
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>>I?m sending myself to sleep but if you want to know more I suggest that you look up recombinant modularity and prepare to be riveted.
Please tell me that this isn?t still about you and your VAG thing?<<
Martin, you shouldn't do this to yourself - your not that boring that you should send yourself to sleep.
By the way I am totally riveted by recombinant modularity - it's awesome. A very good read and extremely educational - I can now see what VAG are thinking about.
By the way this is not my VAG thing again - 4car.co.uk started it - you advised me to get over it last time and seek help and I did - the therapy worked really well. Thanks for the advice - I see you as a father figure now. I love you.
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Type, I?m not remotely sensitive but what is difficult for me is if you?re going to start a discussion at least stay on topic and debate it rather than coming out with childish sneering. Gromit merely pointed out that economies of scale could flow from the platform share whereas you used an ?economies of scale vs lean manufacturing? argument as a basis for shifting the thread and attacking VAG. Economies of scale isn?t a holistic business model like lean manufacturing it?s a potential benefit which can flow from various models, so to use it as a basis for criticising VAG productivity is meaningless. Well now you?ve read about recombinant modularity and I?m at once surprised and saddened that you find it riveting; I must lead a very exciting life. I?m heartened that the advice took, but as I?m already maxed out on the kid front, please take it as from a concerned forum member rather than a father figure.
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