I think it's a year since this has been raised - or at least thats what a search revealed - and then the thread sadly degenerated into the usual pro/anti police argument.
Without going into the specifics of any particular incident, we are all aware that many accidents/incidents on our roads result in the area being declared a crime scene - with the inevitable long delays.
As far as I am aware this is a fairly recent practice and it is surely without doubt that our roads are closed for much longer than yesteryear.
Does anyone know if a crime scene was always declared after major accidents?
Or:
Is it in response to a new law?
Is new Home Office guidelines?
Is it new Police protocols?
It would not appear to be the usual culprit - namely a Brussels inspired directive.
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Usually a crime scene is declared after death or serious injury.
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Hasn't this been, ahem, done to death?
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Hasn't this been, ahem, done to death?
Probably, but does that make it any less relevent?
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Yes it has been done to death, and I have strongs views about it. The problem is it keeps popping into the forefront of peoples motoring experiences because it happens with such alarming regularity and with such affect on peoples journeys.
Just to restate my views. Major road closures, for very long periods of time, while an accident investigation team sift through every atom at the site are not generally required. It does not happen anywhere else, and is a direct result of a blame culture.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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If the Highways agency have anything to do with it they would keep oads closed at the drop of a hat to make themselves look important ,they must be one of the most useless incompetent people on the planet.Took them three hours to put some cones out on the M62 last week in response to a HGV turning turtle and forgot to order the recovery crane, shut all day for a couple hours work even the driver was not injured then to cap it all they did it again on the M62 on Sunday morning the cars invoved were in a field not even on the road but they still shut the road down for the day, Pathetic.
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Does anyone know if a crime scene was always declared after major accidents?
>>Is it in response to a new law? Is new Home Office guidelines? Is it new Police protocols?
>>
cardew: the answers may be found in these previous replies:
This Nanny State - Fullchat Tue 29 Jun 04 00:16
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=23286&...e
Road Closures - Flat in Fifth Fri 19 Mar 04 13:28
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=20881&...e
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Dalglish,
I have re-read those links and it doesn't answer my query. Agreed, it states that certain accidents are to be treated as a crime scene - and that is not in dispute.
However that wasn't the case some while ago, or if it was, we didn't have such long delays. So what has changed and WHY?
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I have re-read those links
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1. as fullchat says in his first link, it has something to do with health and safety. to quote fullchat
...... a "scene" it has to be protected and made into a safe working enviroment. As to how that is done is up to the Officer in Charge. ....
as to when the step change happened in interpreting h&s rules to lead to raod closures, i do not know.
2. i asume you found the new link for the acpo "road deaths manual". that probably has a bit more to the reasoning behind current trends to shut down roads. the procedures for deciding on road closures are detailed in there (particularly in respect of identifying, protecting and securing the scene). and in one para it also blames the ec human rights legislation:
Article 13 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) suggests that ?when
an individual dies in suspicious circumstances? there is a requirement that the police
conduct a ?thorough and effective investigation capable of leading to the identification
and punishment of those responsible and including effective access for the relatives to
the investigatory procedure?. ... ....
This manual aims to standardise the way in which the Police Service investigates road
deaths and serious injury collisions. ....
Although the term ?road death? is used throughout this manual, the same procedures
and investigative practices could be applied to any incident at the discretion of an SIO. ..
The aims of all investigations are as follows:
● Investigate fatal and serious collisions to the highest possible standard. ....
This manual ..... provides a definitive document to assist all those involved in the investigation of a road death. ..."
all this probabaly will not satisfactorily answer your original question.
p.s. in my view, it is the standardisation of procedures and adoption of them as "absolute rules" which has taken away the freedom of the officer on the ground to use commonsense and good judgement. again, i do not know when this step change happened.
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Like most other departments the Highways Agency will have sub contracted most of their work to private companies. It was a bit more than a couple of hours work though.
Removing wagon, removing it's full load of sweets from the carriageway, cleaning carriageway of the diesel, replacing a long stretch of crash barrier (over 100m I'm led to believe) and replacing lighting columns which had been damaged.
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The subject wasn't raised to discuss if it is warranted to close the road for such long periods, but to find out if anyone knows why procedures have changed.
Is the declaration of a crime scene a police initiative, government legislation or ?????
I have never seen any announcement that wef a certain date new procedures are in force etc. These days the police are pretty good with their publicity explaining new legislation - child seats for older kids etc.
It would be interesting to know why it was introduced, especially as most legislation of this type is as a result of an EEC ruling; and I don't believe procedures have changed in Europe.
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Suspect there's no one answer to this but rather it represents the convergence of several strands of modern life, some positive and some regrettable. Scene of crime may get the mention in the traffic reports, but there will be other reasons as well.
First of all if there is a suspicion of crime, be it a fatality a suspicion of reckless or careless driving or a breach of health and safety regs there is a much greater concern to preserve evidence untainted. There may be a wait for IT and other forensic kit, and personnel trained in it's use, to arrive on scene. People today do not accept accidental death as something that happens, they want to know the exact cause and preferably have some body or person held accountable. . While those at the scene are working at least ot some extent against the clock defence lawyers will have unlimited time and funds to apply 20/20 hindsight to the investigation. The media will blowing any alleged mistake into a headline scandal
Rescuers, investigators, and later salvage crews etc. need to work in a safe environment; not aided by traffic squeezing by. Rubberneckers on the opposite carriageway only add to the hazard.
And finally can we exclude the possibility of a passing motorist claiming to be traumatised by being allowed past the scene and seeing the "carnage". I was born in 1959 and remember seeing shapes under blankets at the side of the road passing accident scenes in the sixties. Parents and a whole working generation who'd lived through WW2 coped, and rationalised such sights in the minds of the immediate post war generation such as myself. The same trait has not been passed on in those born after the seventies.
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