I don't think that it is necessary to have to go on a trackday to enjoy spirited driving. As people have said, driving fast is fun - surely the majority of people on a motoring forum such as this appreciate this fact. Hopefully, also people on a forum such as this are able to learn a lot about the ways in which they can improve their driving to enable safe, swift progress when conditions allow.
I really do not understand people who do not exceed speed limits simply because they are told not to. The classic example is someone who drives at 30mph past a school and hometime, and then goes on to drive at 45-50mph on a NSL road, thinking that they must be really safe drivers. An appropriate speed is the key.
Having said that, driving on the limit on public roads is not a good idea (i can say this after exceeding the limit several times due to youthful stupidity). However, the limits of modern road cars are such that a reasonably skilled driver should be able to have fun driving quickly staying well within the limits of the car.
|
I agree cabsmanuk, a track day is indeed the place for experiencing the ultimate in adrenalin fuelled driving.
I took a tiny single seater for a blast around knockhill a couple of years ago. I am no speed freak, but I was quite surprised how much closer to the edge I could go after just a few laps.
There is a time and a place for pushing a car/bike and yourself to the limit. I think we all agree that public highways are not appropriate for this although there is (and probably always will be) a minority who don't seem to recognise the boundaries.
|
|
|
There is a lot of pleasure to be had form driving to the limit, whether that be the limit of your own ability, the car or the road. The key is being able to recognise where that limit is, and unfortunately history tells us that many drivers are unable to do so.
The benefit of track days is that it lets you experiment and find out where those limits are without endangering others who have no desire to be involved in your idea of fun and it's associated risks.
And by the way, Owen, not exceeding speed limits is also not breaking the law, not getting fined, not getting points and therefore keeping your licence. Appropriate speed is the key - within those limits. No individual has the right to decide a particular law doesn't suit them, so what qualifies any one person to decide a speed beyond the legal limit is safe? It's unfortunate that you choose one particular characteristic and decide for yourself to apply it to everyone who drives legally - a totally different grouping.
|
There is no excuse for going through red lights or overtaking on a crest or bend which is plainly blind, though I have my own theories about why I see increasing examples of this.
As for other issues, I reckon the reason many cars aren't so much fun these days is because they're so darn competent.
If you want to have fun, go and drive a Mini 850, a 2CV, a Skoda Estelle 105, a Morris Minor on crossplies. Find out what 'seat-of-the-pants' feels like with foot to the floor, snatched gear changes, no servo or ABS brakes, unassisted steering - all without exceeding the speed limit and within their (for the most part) low-but-gently rather than high-but-abruptly reached limits.
Then compare it with going round a bend quickly in a Vauxhall Corsa... it's fine, safe, transport. But it rarely feels fun.
|
|
|
With apologies to Volvoman if I have got this wrong, but I understood the point of this thread to be the question: Can driving be fun without taking unsafe risks?
It was not supposed to be a rant about poor driving, although I concede that this may have become a little bit of a theme for V'man of late (sorry V'man).
I am surprised that no-one has talked about motorcycling more. There is no car I have ever been in that is capable of giving as much driving pleasure as can be gotten from the lowliest restricted 125. If only Mrs Joe would let me have one.
|
|
|
You know what, if you don't like the question, don't answer it.
Whining about it because you think it is not relevant, or boring, or obvious is silly.
If someone wants to ask a question, and if Dave and/or I and/or HJ think its ok, then there really is little else to be said.
And one thing more boring than an irrelevant question is a bunch of whining about it.
I'm going to go through this thread and take out the silly stuff. No doubt you'll get over it.
|
|
|
|
Not ranting or preaching just expressing a valid point of view as I believe we're all entitled to do and although I've done it a bit recently, I don't think it's excessive given the seriousness of the issue. Also, I don't think I've ever told anyone how to drive RF - what I have done is argue that speeding is reckless as are all other forms of dangerous driving.
Anyway, I think some here have finally hit the nail on the head. It is possible to enjoy motoring without driving dangerously. There is a time and a place for everything but who decides when/where that is when we're talking about public places ? Apply the freedom some drivers seem to insist upon to any other other aspect of our lives and you'll see what I mean and ironically it is the actions of the same minority which will eventually see us all forced to drive electric buggies limited to 30mph!
|
So V'man, what is your recipe for fun and safe driving? Apart from the chauffeur thing and the bike thing, I am mow at a loss. All the things that I can think of that are fun are also a bit risky, including the fun things one can do with passengers in darkened lay-bys....
Going quick is fun, but that's out. Racing is fun, but that is obviously out. Fast and accurate cornering on twisty roads is fun. No good. Handbrake turns in the snow in safeways car-park, nope that doesn't work either.
That's it then. Safe driving is no fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Have you ever tried lifting of the throttle halfway round a bend when you're close to the limit in a Corsa. The back end is so light it can let go. Unless your used to this its easy to be travelling backwards down the road, in my case towards an ambulance! I only let it happen once and fortunately got away with it.
In answer to the original question, There are a few bends where I will push a car to the limits of its grip, often just to see what traction is like on any given day. It makes the rest of the journey safer if I know this.
Yes its fun, but I'll only do it where I can see it is safe to push a car hard.
--
I read often, only post occaisionally
|
See? If the Corsa handled like a Minor on crossplies you might have been too scared to push the envelope to the final extent!
Scared, but giggling like mad all the same!
It's like that old adage about how we'd all drive more carefully if there was a big sharp spike in the centre of the steering wheel. A hoary old chestnut, but you can't deny it's true!
Not what you'd call fun though. Unless you're into that kinda thing.
; )
|
When I spun teh Corsa I wasn't pushing it to the limit, just not paying as much attention as I should have been. Knowing how your car handles on teh limit is very useful. Found a vary large area of spilt oil on the road home from work today. The car slid, yet I kept control without batting an eyelid as it went sideways. If I didn't practice occaisionally on the few bends where the visinility is good enough to do this safely, I'm not sure how I would have reacted.
--
I read often, only post occaisionally
|
Spikeyhead has hit on a very good point. An awfull lot of people don't know how to react or react wrongly to a dangerous situation. As mentioned above in a few posts Track days are a good way of finding out how to control cars on the limit.
I'm sure an awfull lot of accidents could be avoided if only people knew how to control a vehicle properly.
As for finding the limits on public roads that is up to the individual, personally I don't push my car on the roads because of other road users as they are so unpredictable but I do speed.
If I know a road well and there is very light traffic and conditions are right I will speed but not to the point of endangering myself or other road users.
There is a time and place for this type of driving and people need to learn this.
Unfortunately this is the problem and I doubt the problem will go away untill people are educated properly.
|
I'm sure an awfull lot of accidents could be avoided if only people knew how to control a vehicle properly. As for finding the limits on public roads that is up to the individual, There is a time and place for this type of driving and people need to learn this. Unfortunately this is the problem and I doubt the problem will go away untill people are educated properly.
Not just a reply to Marcos, but to a number of opinions expressed in this (really worthwhile) thread. There is NO TIME & NO PLACE on public roads for some dipstick to find the limits of a vehicle. What happens when those limits are over-reached? He/she wipes out an innocent road user normally travelling in the opposite direction. Most accidents could be avoided if people drove within their limits, at a sensible speed for the ambient circumstances, without driving too closly to the vehicle in front. Most people have no idea whatsoever of how quickly things happen when loss of control occurs - ALWAYS as a result of driving too quickly, too closely, leaving no room for an escape, given the circumstances prevailing.
Today I used the A55 expressway in North Wales (went to climb Snowdon - lovely day). Forgive me but I thought there was a speed purge in N. Wales, courtesy of Chief Constable Blunderbuss, with 000's caught so far this year. What a swine he is. Maybe they were caught because the speed limit signs were sneaky, discreet, or hidden? I have to tell you not. All speed signage was A1; and I stuck to the speed limit. What about the hundreds of drivers who overtook me at speeds 80+ in 50 mph zones? Or the idiot in the black Escort who only just managed to stop behind me because I had kept a safe distance from the car in front and had time to put on my hazard lights in the Conwy tunnel when a trailer lost a wheel that went bounding through the traffic? No sympathy from me for idiots who drive on the edge on public roads.
I wonder if Mr Blunderbuss will allow me to sponser a speed camera on the A55 (just give me 20% of the revenue and I'll sign up for at least five).
8 ball
|
There is NO TIME & NO PLACE on public roads for some dipstick to find the limits of a vehicle. What happens when those limits are over-reached? He/she wipes out an innocent road user normally travelling in the opposite direction. Most accidents could be avoided if people drove within their limits, at a sensible speed for the ambient circumstances, without driving too closly to the vehicle in front.
I fully agree with most of what you say. I already know pretty much where the limits of my Cavalier are. I enjoy, when there is sufficient visibility on a bend, to practice controlling the car close to the limit. It helps.
I, and any other sensible driver, will drive to the limits of my vision and ability, not just to the limits of adhesion.
Last winter I drove home from work when there was a few inches of snow on the ground. Two people I work with had accidents, fortunately no-one hurt. I was confident driving in the snow because I know how to handle the car once it started to slide.
I currently have no idea where the true limits are for my Imprezza, I need a track day in it and am happy to admit this. Better still a day out on a disused airfield, there is just so much more run off area.
i wish everyone on this forum safe driving, and will leave this thread with the thought that if you are driving within the limits of your vision and capability then you are driving safely.
--
I read often, only post occaisionally
|
So despite the efforts of some to stifle debate and prevent others expressing views they don't like we managed to get there.
I should answer Joe's question about what I consider fun driving and I suppose the easiest way to do this is to say that depends on when/where.
On a busy road I enjoy staying out of trouble and anticipating the antics, errors and/or needs of other drivers. I enjoy getting from a-b unstressed and in safety. I enjoy the fact that my kids have had a pleasant ride and haven't turned white and been sick. In town I enjoy not making the lives of others miserable, letting drivers out of junctions, letting pedestrians cross the road (where safe, of course), reducing all that congestion and rage building up ahead by NOT blocking that exit. I enjoy driving in a way that is courteous and doesn't annoy others to the point where they then take risks. I let people overtake even when they're speeding. I'm not going to put myself or anyone else at risk by trying to stop them. If someone tailgates me I let them pass as soon as is safe. I never touch the brakes or just carry on going regardless thereby adding to the danger.
On the open road, sun shining, visibility clear I enjoy driving within and up to the speed limit. I find this fast enough and don't see it as some sort of challenge to my manhood. The sort of roads RF talked about are still fun to drive on at 70 or with whatever speed limit applies. Taking bends, driving over undulations etc. can be fun without pushing it to the limit.
I've done a Rally Course a Brands Hatch and found driving around a very tight and rough course in an RS200 exhilarating. I can see the benefit in learning how to handle our cars in emergency conditions and feel this would be a good addition to the test if it weren't impractical.
I don't however feel it's right to try to get my fix of excitement on public roads where my actions might well affect others.
|
|
|
|
|
|
