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It's not only sales. Our Aygo was in for annual service MOT today and the garage owner was telling me owners are skimping on servicing. If he calls customers to say an additional job needs doing more often than not they ask if it is urgent, or if it will wait until the MOT is due.
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Public sector job losses will have had an effect. PWC reported for the year ending June 2011, 290,000 public sector jobs had been lost - 17,000 of these in Yorks and Humber - with the North East and West Midlands being hardest hit. GMB reported in December 2011 that public sector job losses totalled 376,000 - 26,000 in Yorks & Humber. This isn't just local authorities but also central government, and compares to estimates of 400,000 public sector job losses by 2015. Some public sector bodies have 'front loaded' their reductions - making large cuts initially.
Whichever sector job losses occur in, there must be an additional impact on consumer spending.
I think Auristocrat has hit the nail on the head in terms of the sudden downturn in late 2011. Tony g , I wonder how many of your usual customers have at least one member of the family in a public sector job - I suspect a very heavy percentage?
The public sector is being very hard hit, with no worker getting off without some kind of hit e.g. even if you've kept your job (for now), you'll be in the middle of a 2 year pay freeze and facing at least another year or two of further job losses. This is a real shock to people that previously put up with less than glamorous salaries, but thought they had job security. Many won't have significant savings to fall back on and will be cutting out costs wherever they can.
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This is a real shock to people that previously put up with less than glamorous salaries
Don't think the workers in Woolies were on very glamerous salaries. Or pensions. Or working hours...
Whatever hits the private sector will ultimately hit the public sector via reduced tax revenues. The notion that the public sector should be immune from redundancies in order to maintain the illusion of a fantasy economy is quite wrong.
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This is a real shock to people that previously put up with less than glamorous salaries
Don't think the workers in Woolies were on very glamerous salaries. Or pensions. Or working hours...
Whatever hits the private sector will ultimately hit the public sector via reduced tax revenues. The notion that the public sector should be immune from redundancies in order to maintain the illusion of a fantasy economy is quite wrong.
Unthrottled - I wasn't saying the losses were wrong (although having suffered redundancy myself in the past, I know it's a very unpleasant experience). The public sector did grow very fat under the last government and in these straightened times it's now wide open to cuts. Whatever the rights or wrongs, I was simply reinforcing the logic that this would be having a major impact on many of Tony g's potential customers.
Tony G - I just hope you can bunker down and survive until things improve (which they will of course). My FIL always buys from a local dealer that sounds like a very similar business to your own. I know that this particular dealer is now chasing old customers and even if they can't afford to change car, he is looking to earn by helping them to keep their cars on the road e.g. via economical 'make do and mend' work. At least he is keeping his name in the frame and will hopefully be the first port of call when people do want to buy.
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Tonto1
I agree; I know from experience-redundancy sucks. I know plenty of public sector workers and I don't think that they work any less hard than their private sector counterparts. The privater sector has plenty of its own wheezes when it comes to wasting money!
But when you listen to a Unison rep talking, you'd think that everyone in the private sector was a hedge fund manager or a banker. They never make comparisons with checkout staff in Tescos!
Whether or not the private sector takes up the slack doesn't really affect the decision to make cutbacks. If the debt grows too big then interest payments become unbearable-and then the cutbacks kick in-and hard!
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Thank you all for your observations .
The two that struck me as particularly interesting are the loss of public service jobs,17000 in Yorkshire alone.I'm not sure how many people are employed in private and public in Yorkshire ,but to loose 17000 ,must be a substantial percentage.
In addition I wonder how many other private sector jobs have been lost ,that were dependant on public sector workers.
Didn't the government say that their would be large increases in employment in the private sector to redeploy these public service personel ?
The second point, is the suggestion that perhaps for the first time in a long time,people are saving to pay for christmas rather than using credit cards. Would that account for a reduction in sales before Christmas ,perhaps because buyers are not paying off large bills after Christmas, could sales improve then.
All in all though, we all agree that times are desperate ,however what strategy would you suggest I adopt to keep my business alive .it seems likely that it will be a least a year before things return to normal.
Tony g
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All in all though, we all agree that times are desperate ,however what strategy would you suggest I adopt to keep my business alive .it seems likely that it will be a least a year before things return to normal. Tony g
Your original post gave the impression that your stock was tailored to the demand in your area until sales dried up - I guess you need to use all your skills and knowledge to understand what sort of cars your potential customers need now - it may be that changing your stock for more cost-effective models, cheaper to run and/or buy might bring them back.
You would of course need to carefully manage your change of stock to avoid losing big time.
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This would seem a sensible approach.
Some additional thoughts:
Has your stock been with you for a while? If people perceive that you've had the same cars for, say, three months, that could add to the impression that you're not doing as well as before. Some change in stock, however limited, may be worth thinking about.
Additionally, you said that approx four dealers have closed in your locale - would some limited advertising be worth thinking of, to highlight the fact you're still there and that others have gone - enhance the feeling of stability, etc.
Don't think the bike idea would work - you're competing with the likes of Halfords, etc and as we're in winter, it is not the best season to be selling bikes (especially now Christmas has come and gone, together with the surge in sales).
As regards giveways (eg lawnmowers were mentioned), this tends to be desperation marketing. Again, what season are we in?
I suppose people would be more interested in price reductions, or added accessories (only bought or added when sales are confirmed - car mats, etc).
What are your finance rates like - are they competitive?
Car manufacturers are struggling as well. Skoda, Mazda, Suzuki and Seat have been offering new cars at a discount (VAT-free supposedly). VW are discounting the Polo, etc. Honda is offering four year warranties and a choice of other four year offers (servicing, etc). Some of these offers may have meant people have bought new rather than used.
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Edited by tony g on 10/01/2012 at 19:06
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Tony g,
Get on your bike, or at least start selling them. Really. As a car owner who, if I am honest, can live without a car I would buy a bike instead. Biking is the new-age way of local transport.
And before anyone raises the issue about my previous HJ views on bicyclers, my other stance is if you can't beat them, join them. My choice is to go for an electric assist type and I see a strong market for them in the future. It is the perfect electric get-about.
If selling bikes is not an option, then tough it out and the new MOT standard will be driving people back to good second-hand cars in short time.
Regards
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Hi Tony,
I'm sorry to hear sales have dropped off for you. In the winter I sell motoring literature on ebay. Sales are noticeably worse this winter.
How about offering a free lawnmower or a week's stay in a holiday cottage to people who buy a car above a certain value? Maybe something of lower value to the other buyers, e.g Gift vouchers which can be redeemed at selected privately run local businesses. In return, maybe those local businesses would let you advertise cars on their premises. That way you'd be potentially helping each other.
In the run up to Christmas, perhaps a Christmas Hamper. If you can think of a promotion which makes you stand out from other dealers, it could make a difference.
I hope this year turns out to be better than you're anticipating
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Hi sirion,
I'm not sure about the electric bike theory ,we live on the edge of the pennines,it's rained for a month here ,so bicycling is not popular.Most people who own a bike here have the mountain bike type and use them at weekends for recreation.
The new tougher MOT regulations could produce extra sales ,let's hope so.
Tony g
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Although I would like a newer car/upgrade I just cant afford it right now.
My wage is decent (compared to most) but the same wage 10 years ago would have bought a lot more. Wages have not changed, but the true 'value' of money has decreased. I assume most 'professionals' are in the same boat
My father-in-law to be owns a petrol station/garage in Yorkshire and also happens to buy and sell cars on site too. His car selling business was doing amazingly well since around 1995, he used to sell around 9 cars a month. Last year he sold around 2-3 cars a month....times are hard
I wish you all the best
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All,
Thank you for your observations,I particularly like the idea of offering a freebie with each sale,
It's something that's been done in the trade before,particularly many years ago when AFG had the franchise for Nissan in the Uk,
I remember Nissan dealers having displays in their showrooms ,not just of bluebirds and cherries ,but also of colour televisions ,and fridge freezers,you could pick what you prefered when you collected your car.
I wonder if they put the freebie in the boot as you collected your new car.
Didn't AFG have a major falling out with Nissan the manufacturer during the 80s.that led to the collapse of the company.Strange really because I believe AFG established Nissan as a major brand in the Uk.
Regards
Tony g
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Nissan UK was a privately owned company owned by Octav Botnar and held the contract to distribute Nissans in the UK up to late 1991. Nissan wanted to establish it's own distribution network, but could not afford to buy out Nissan UK. Eventually Nissan reported Nissan UK for VAT fraud, as there were discrepancies between the number of Nissans imported, the number of Nissans sold, and the amount of VAT Nissan UK paid. Customs and Excise raided the Nissan UK headquarters, and Octav Botnat fled abroad. Nissan set up it's own distribution network called Nissan GB. Most Nissan dealers migrated to Nissan GB.
AFG were wholly owned by Nissan UK. They continued to sell Nissans in the UK through part of 1992 - sourcing cars themselves from Eire, etc. They also tried to continue beyond this by selling Fiats. Eventually when Nissan UK was wound up, so were AFG.
We bought a new Micra in February 1992, and went with a Nissan GB dealer. There were trim differences between the Nissan GB and Nissan UK cars, and only the Nissan GB cars came with the full Nissan manufacturers three year warranty.
Edited by Auristocrat on 10/01/2012 at 23:23
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I agree; I know from experience-redundancy sucks. I know plenty of public sector workers and I don't think that they work any less hard than their private sector counterparts. The privater sector has plenty of its own wheezes when it comes to wasting money!
As somebody who's worked in both sectors i can say many stereotypes arent true in either case but there are marked differences in culture and management. I think ive noted before that incompetance in the private sector generally leads to dismissal where as in the public it results in 'training.'
But when you listen to a Unison rep talking, you'd think that everyone in the private sector was a hedge fund manager or a banker.
See i have vague sympathy for the under-threat public sector workers until their Unison reps open their mouths, then i find my sympathy draining. I got bored of caring about people banging on about pensions long ago and the unions do an excellent job of making the entire private sector out to be faceless emotionless corperate stooges on £200,000 a year. In their view the public sector are low paid amazing people and 100% of private sector people earn 200k+
I also find it distasteful that people in secure jobs with secure pensions feel the right to line up in the street on strike when millions who have less than they do are suffering much more.
The two that struck me as particularly interesting are the loss of public service jobs,17000 in Yorkshire alone.I'm not sure how many people are employed in private and public in Yorkshire ,but to loose 17000 ,must be a substantial percentage.
Places like Yorkshire depend more on the public sector for employment than the south, thats no secret. Local authorities such as those in Yorkshire have also been given the harshest budget cuts leaving them more vulnerable than other areas. The public sector is a major employer in Yorkshire, with 17,000 of them losing their jobs its clearly going to have an impact. Obviously theres some political risk assessment behind the location of the cuts. Merseyside, West Midlands, North and South Yorkshire are mostly Labour held and seats which the Tories have no chance of winning so its no loss to the Government to slash their budget harder than Warwickshire, Northamptonshire etc.
Whatever hits the private sector will ultimately hit the public sector via reduced tax revenues. The notion that the public sector should be immune from redundancies in order to maintain the illusion of a fantasy economy is quite wrong.
You're right but i should make a point in favour of the public sector following my earlier comment. The Government's main argument when they talk about cutting public spending is that it'll be a 'good deal for the taxpayer' but one area where the Unions are right is that their members are also taxpayers. The Government's done a good job of seperating both sectors to portray it as the Private sector funding the public sector and the public sector being merely one level above benefit thiefs. But the fact is those sacked public sector workers will only end up dependant on the state and in some cases receiving more money in benefits than they received - from that same state - as a salary. So i have to ask how exactly does it benefit the taxpayer?
Tony. Sorry for all the babble, this is your thread after all. If i may make a suggestion i'd advise altering your stock policy slightly, you say you stock low mileage cars below £7,000 and thats great but i think you'd have more calls (particularly now) for cars of under £3,000 with full service histories and reasonable mileages. Car Insurance is an issue in Yorkshire along with the Midlands and Merseyside so cars with low insurance groups are also a must. If your location is somewhat 'out of the way' then more advertising is required, talk yourself up, advertise that every car is HPi checked, non pushy sales staff, flexible opening hours and the ability to 'reserve' a car for viewing for an hour or so which can make buyers from further away more confident about making the journey. If you're not on ebay then get on there as its a great way to communicate, you could send potential buyers specific photo's of the car and further information which again could entice buyers from further away to feel confident about visiting you. Perhaps guarantee a minimum of £250 for any part exchange and if it really is total scrap you could make some of it back by selling it for spares. Plenty of 'home part time traders' are put off selling their own car by the new insurance rules so they flock to WBAC, you need to make yourself a better option.
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I wonder if they put the freebie in the boot as you collected your new car.
A fride/freezer in an mpv. A slimline LED TV in an MX-5. :)
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Car insurance is no more or less of a problem in Yorkshire than it is in any other part of the UK,if a product does not sell it is either the wrong product or the wrong price 1st rule of marketing.
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Collos,
Sorry you're wrong about car insurance.
Certain areas of the country have real problems with car insurance ,Bradford ,burnley ,Blackburn,parts of Birmingham,
The reason for the incredibly high cost of insurance in these areas are.Huge and often fraudulent personal injury claims,and the large number of drivers who drive without insurance.
The dvla said recently that 40% of the cars registered to the BD3 post codes are not insured.
My daughter recently moved to a BD2 postcode ,she tried to insure her Clio ,using online comparison sites .The three cheapest insurance companies refused to quote for a BD2 address.
The first rule of marketing ?,well that's worked well for me for the last 5 years.
I stock low mileage diesels or smaller petrol cars.No high mileage ex company cars,no big old jags,or volvos etc.
I advertise every car with a free MOT and VOSA check and put a new MOT on every car I sell.
I have an auto trader web site and ensure that the price I offer makes my cars some of the cheapest in the country.
As I said in my earlier post,business was growing until sept last year ,it stopped almost dead at the point.
What happened in oct ,sensible suggestions were, people saving for Christmas and redundancies taking hold.
I know it's not marketing or price,
Any more suggestions.
Tony g
I have a website on auto trader and ensure that every car is one of the cheapest in the country.
The business model worked well for me,until sept last year ,then sales and enq
Edited by tony g on 11/01/2012 at 11:47
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Collos,
Sorry you're wrong about car insurance.
Certain areas of the country have real problems with car insurance ,Bradford ,burnley ,Blackburn,parts of Birmingham,
Yes exactly, but because i said it then Collos feels compelled to ignore fact just to make out im wrong. He cant help himself. If anybody else said it he wouldn't bother posting. I could say the oceans are quite wet and he'd still say im wrong so just ignore him. Certain areas have major car insurance issues, thats just fact.
The reason for the incredibly high cost of insurance in these areas are.Huge and often fraudulent personal injury claims,and the large number of drivers who drive without insurance.
Wasn't Yorkshire the centre of one of the big 'crash for cash' scandals a couple of years ago?
no big old jags,or volvos etc.
Well you've lost me as a customer :P
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Hi,Jamie ,you're right about west Yorkshire being a cash for cash area.
Several people have been jailed in the north for these scams.
It doesn't seem like much of a problem until you realise millions of pounds are involved ,individuals were committing multiple frauds.
Even insurance assessors were being bribed and were consequently jailed.
So collos ,you've read my reply to your post,any constructive thoughts or is Jamie right.
Jamie ,if you really,really, wanted a jag /Volvo smoker.the auctions must be full of them,I can't imagine they bring more than scrap value now.time for a bargain?
Regards
Tony g
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What cars are you selling?
Buyers are now having to look at mpg and VED as cost cutting, not just purchase price.
My next car will have a lower VED group, and my a little more economical.
Its the running cost of cars thats the problem.
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Its the running cost of cars thats the problem.
More of a perceived problem for a lot of people. Still amazes me that people people are happy to lose thousands in an unneessary depreciation hit to save fifty quid a year on the tax disc...
Great economics!
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So true unthrottled.
Makes one wonder if it's one of the modern ways to feel good, buy something very expensive, smile for a couple of weeks and then reality returns, oh eck what have I done, how do I pay for this thing. Oh yeah let's borrow or take a loan and pay it off over x-years.
When a mate of mine gets the urge to buy something it seems to burn away inside of him until he has to buy, only then does he get relief, seems like plenty of other people go through the same type of thing.
Cars sales in decline - well they move up and down anyway, good used cars are popular but the car trade tends to be quieter at this time of the year anyway.
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When a mate of mine gets the urge to buy something it seems to burn away inside of him until he has to buy, only then does he get relief, seems like plenty of other people go through the same type of thing.
Couldn't put it better myself. I would perhaps understand it better if they didn't contrive specious arguments to convince themselves that it is a good idea! Projected fuel savings are another classic argument evoked in order to make tyre kicking seem like a shrewd move.
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Projected fuel savings are another classic argument evoked in order to make tyre kicking seem like a shrewd move.
I love the dubious posts on forums when a total lunatic has bought himself a brand new car that is failing to match the "promised" economy figures. They go on to say they are selling the car and buying a "whatever" because they are better on fuel. How much will they loose on a few week old car and how much will the new one cost on top, in one case the payback time was 10 years and the poster was that thick he could not see it. They also cannot see that the new "whatever" will not meet the promised figures either.
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Have you not read the op.
The cars are cheap, so very little is loss in depreciation.
You can pick up a runner for a few hundred pounds, but spend that on fuel in a month.
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Have you not read the op.
The cars are cheap, so very little is loss in depreciation.
You can pick up a runner for a few hundred pounds, but spend that on fuel in a month.
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Hi x trail,
If you do a search on auto traders more detailed search ,and type in Eccleshill cars,in the bottom left hand corner you can see the cars I currently have for sale,
They most expensive is a an Audi a3 diesel with 45,000 miles at 6750 ,the cheapest would be an 06 mondeo with 52000 miles ,at £3250.
I have cars with cheap road tax ,a Suzuki swift diesel £30 a year to tax and 50 mpg. All are the cheapest available.
Depreciations not a major issue on cars that are over 4 years old.Some of the cars I have for sale have already lost more than 3/4 of their value.as I said before all the cars have service history,a new MOT,and a VOSA mileage check.
I believe that the Market for used cars has dropped to 25% of what it was and will stay that way for another 12 months.
The link below should take you to the site.
Tony g
www.autotrader.co.uk/dealer/228876/stock/used/cars...u
Edited by tony g on 11/01/2012 at 15:28
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I dont agree with the people here who frankly sound like middle class toffs going 'depreciation is always the biggest cost you know' because the fact is the day to day running costs are more relevent for the potential buyer. Depreciation doesnt make you open your wallet every day, depreciation doesnt send you to the petrol station, depreciation doesnt come up as an MOT failure. Depreciation is only relevent if you want to sell it, if you dont want to sell it then it doesnt matter. Or if you buy at the lower end of the market of used cars which have lost most of their value anyway then its really a non issue.
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Depreciation is there whether you like it or not. It's the stealth cost. It doesn't come out of the cash in your pocket or appear on the credit card at the end of the month, but it gnaws at your wealth just as surely.
This is why I pay the same sort of money for my cars as other people do for a sqaure meal ...
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Yesterday, as I had permission from SWMBO, I started the search to replace the epica, which in 7 months will celebrate its third birthday. Why am i starting now? well, i'd like to get it out of the way one way or the other, and I have always been a practitioner of the "long manufacturers warranty" type. There are some stonking deals available on pre-reg and demo cars available, there is one, 25% off, 5 years warranty, balance of, 5 years 0% finance (nice but not essential) and its a car I like. I got the epica at a very sensible price when they were being liquidated (my words) so depreciation isn't going to hurt too much, not like the old boy I saw recently who paid full list for his! £19000 and it is about £4000 trade for his which is in poor physical condition. I can get £4400 for mine which is book at the moment, so happy with that. One of my friends still in the trade says business has fallen through the floor, He is an indie, and has had to let one mechanic go, because people are just not servicing their cars at the moment.
We are all of the opinion that the new mot regs will certainly drive some older cars off the road, and for a certain "price-sensitive" type of buyer it will mean a move further down into banger territory, and the winners will be those who can afford to buy the new/nearly new long warranty cars and can put up with the main dealer servicing to retain the "goodwill" element.
however, having looked at the market, we are in no rush, and it may well be worth buying the extended warranty from chevrolet to make the car easier to sell at 3 years. £650 for 2 extra years as per original warranty....
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There are some stonking deals available on pre-reg and demo cars available, there is one, 25% off,
Sorry, Roverboy, but most of those discounts are phoney. If you plan to sell the car at £10,000, you set the list price to £12500 and immediately knock 20% off-or claim it's VAT free or whatever the gimmick is. Oldest trick in the book. The only snag is that the high list price immediately rules you out of the fleet market since BIK tax is based on list price.
Extended warranties cost money, professional servicing costs money-more than negating any extra resale price. To me, the only reason to change a car is to buy something substantially better or to replace something uneconomic to fix. But to keep replacing functional cars every three years with something almost exactly the same makes no sense at all!
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unthrottled, I replace my functional car every three years so that i have 3 years of warranty, or more if available... my losses on the epica would ok by me, some people want to buy new, and thank heavens we do, because that way there are older cheaper vehicles for people to buy. I have always extolled the virtues of dealer servicing for cars in warranty and wouldn't change that. For the extended warranty, i don't have to do it till mid july, so there is time to think about it all
who knows what deal i will find, and as you say some discounts are phoney, but if you look, and after a working life in the trade I know how to look, you will find!
I once got a car from a dealer mate of mine for 50%off new, his customer was tading in her Rover 827 vitesse for an audi because she DIDN'T LIKE the vitesse (it was while back) and i got the car at 6 months old. and when i sold that one a year on I didn't lose a penny.
And when I find the right deal I'll get it...
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some people want to buy new, and thank heavens we do, because that way there are older cheaper vehicles for people to buy.
Very true!
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Depreciation is there whether you like it or not. It's the stealth cost. It doesn't come out of the cash in your pocket or appear on the credit card at the end of the month, but it gnaws at your wealth just as surely.
Absolutely right. This was a major deciding factor in my last purchase. At the risk of appearing to spout 'management speak' it is the total cost of ownership that counts.
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What you say is true Jamie, but the habit of changing a car unnecessarily seldom goes away. Even the shiniest of new cars starts to look hum drum when your colleagues/neighbours start to replace their cars. Then the whole process starts again.
I'm not saying that changing a car is a foolish idea or that everyone should drive bangers.
But if the £220 cost of a tax disc makes you wince and there's nothing mechanically wrong with your existing car, you shouldn't even be thinking of buying a new car.
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Am I one of the few people who doesn't care about the tax disc or the mpg very much? Mine's a £210 VED and as long as it goes when I put petrol in it, I'm happy. My biggest concern when buying a car after the outlay for the vehicle is the insurance cost. I think I'll be able to get myself some decent bargains in the years to come if everyone else wants a teensy little £30 VED car. I prefer having a big car, or something a bit mad.
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Am I one of the few people who doesn't care about the tax disc or the mpg very much? Mine's a £210 VED and as long as it goes when I put petrol in it, I'm happy. My biggest concern when buying a car after the outlay for the vehicle is the insurance cost. I think I'll be able to get myself some decent bargains in the years to come if everyone else wants a teensy little £30 VED car. I prefer having a big car, or something a bit mad.
You're not on your own - but we're a minority.
4 years ago I needed a new car which had to be 4wd - the obvious choice for my needs was a new Volvo XC70 diesel at around £30k but a Backroomer suggested a year-old Subaru Outback petrol for £15k - despite being a "gas-guzzler" I saved a lot over the 3 years of ownership.
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Well I figure, if you've got to drive somewhere, you've got to put the fuel in to do so. I don't feel I have very much power over the price of fuel (except choosing to buy it from a garage that has it 2p cheaper or something!!). So it's futile worrying about it, in my case. Sadly, for a lot of people, after their mortgage, fuel is often the biggest cost in life (myself included).
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I suppose the real question is what does make a car change neccessary? Buying a new car to show off your 61 plate grey derv machine in the work car park is a stupid reason to buy a car i agree, a woman who works where i do has a brand new Astra and upon seeing my Jag commented about how i must get paid too much. Her car is more expensive than mine.
The £460 tax disc for my car doesnt bother me a huge amount, if all i wanted was to save money i'd have stuck with the 406 (which i still have by the way) but i will sell the Jaguar this year while its still worth something so i suppose its value does matter to me somewhat but it'll depend on circumstances as to if i bother or not.
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I dont agree with the people here who frankly sound like middle class toffs going 'depreciation is always the biggest cost you know' because the fact is the day to day running costs are more relevent for the potential buyer.
Sorry Jamie but you sound very naive when it comes to money.
One of the reasons we as a country are in the mess we're in is due to far to many people paying far too much for things, due to having the day to day costs at a level they could afford at the time, rather than thinking long term.
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Tony,
Did you know one of the interior photos of the Mondeo is actually an interior photo of a Citroen? :)
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No its not.
We are in this mess only because people borrowed more than they could afford to repay.
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No its not.
We are in this mess only because people borrowed more than they could afford to repay.
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I appreciate your margins are, with the sound of it down to the bone, but there's many people on low incomes now.
The brother in law lost is low paid warehouse job, so his old car was the first to go, the head gasket blowing was the final straw.
He's since got another job as a security guard, but still can't afford to get back on the car ladder, he's never been able to get onto the housing ladder.
So i believe more and more people in unskilled jobs are now in that position.
He's clever than some though, and isn't mug enough to borrow more than he can repay.
He now walks to work, lives in a council flat near town, and can afford a drink in the pub.
His luxury is having sky sports.
I think motoring is now beyond the means or the desire, of many like him?
Edited by xtrailman on 11/01/2012 at 22:55
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?Sorry Jamie but you sound very naive when it comes to money.?
I wasn't going to bother replying to such nonsense but you'll get the reaction you're looking for anyway. A) You dont know me or what you're talking about B) Seeing as handling money, budgets and finances are my day job i dont accept criticism from some internet hack and C) Should i take a leaf out of the book of financial thinking which resulted in a £500billion bailout and entire western nations having debts in the billions because of course thats perfect and anything else is 'niave.'
Mind you they still get a bonus big enough to buy a house despite destroying their company and needing a multi-billion-pound bailout so perhaps i am in the wrong job.
Give me strength.
We are in this mess only because people borrowed more than they could afford to repay.?
Im sorry i couldnt help but laugh when i saw this. The only reason? Really? What about the idiots who loaned money to people who didnt have any? Surely thats rather stupid? Very easy to switch that argument round.
There was me thinking there were other factors such as US housing market crash, crippling national debt, banking meltdown caused by greed on a grotesque unimaginable scale, poor management, Goldman Sachs scandal, Government budget deficits, eurozone debt crisis etc and you're telling me this is all caused by normal people getting a loan on a Vauxhall Astra?
You do know the Eurozone summits recently are not about ordinary people taking out car loans, right?
Edited by jamie745 on 12/01/2012 at 01:40
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And wasn't the reason,
(or one of them, before you have to laugh again, and jump on my back,)
the housing market crashed, due to people borrowing more than they could repay?
Is the lender solely responsible, do you really think its ok to borrow money, simply because a lender is willing to give you it.
I find you reasoning, risible.
"and you're telling me this is all caused by normal people getting a loan on a Vauxhall Astra"
And no sorry, i dont think i mentioned only car loan, so you must be telling me??
Edited by xtrailman on 12/01/2012 at 08:21
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Just because an idiot bank will loan you more money than you can comfortably pay back should not stop a sensible person thinking about it themselves and realising that they are taking a big risk. Problem is people do not think carefully, they just jump in and hope someone will pick up the pieces later.
The young today are impatient, they cannot wait. House next door is for sale, good price and you could move in tomorrow with no work. Young couple came to see and agreed to buy but they wanted extensions, new kitchen, bathroom, garage etc and could not afford all the work. When I bought mine 35 years ago I spent 6 years doing that type of work as and when I could afford it but I had patience and realised that I would get it sorted eventually. I could still afford holidays and cars without getting into major debt.
When I buy a car these days I am in the fortunate position not to have to borrow money, I set myself a max amount to change and stick to it. The dealers don't listen and try to sell you a car way more expensive, when you tell them its outside your budget they simply tell you to get a loan, they either listen to what I tell them or I walk out, plenty more garages.
With regards to the orignal posting a small car lot down the road from dad, probably 20 to 30 £3000 to £7000 cars, been there 20 years or so and traded elswhere before, good reputation with a small workshop suddenly cleared all the cars off the site between X-Mass and New Year and now only sell white vans, must be a better market. Perhaps you should look into this, selling an odd van in addition to the cars may help.
Edited by thunderbird on 12/01/2012 at 08:39
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Thunderbird,
The local used van retailers just closed down,does that sound like an opportunity or a warning ?
Tony g
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Just because an idiot bank will loan you more money than you can comfortably pay back should not stop a sensible person thinking about it themselves and realising that they are taking a big risk.
Dont you think people paid 30x the average wage should be taking a bit more responsibility than merely let off with a mention of being an 'idiot bank.' May i remind you these are people who required a £500billion bailout, paid for by the taxpayer which is you, me and everybody else including the people you're blaming for this mess. If i destroyed my company and needed £500billion from the Government i'd spend the rest of my life at the Job Centre yet somehow they're still employed and raking in millions. How can that be possible?
Problem is people do not think carefully, they just jump in and hope someone will pick up the pieces later.
Much like the bankers who receive only reward when they get lucky but zero punishment when they get things wrong. So they can just lump risk upon risk knowing someone else will pick up the pieces (The Government, taxpayer etc) and it'll never affect them. The banks had no problem taking money from those who didnt have any during the good times did they?
Now lets review the rest of your post
Daily Mail nonsense garnished with 'when i was a lad i was so much better' which is getting boring.
Right lets move on...
And wasn't the reason,
(or one of them, before you have to laugh again, and jump on my back,)
the housing market crashed, due to people borrowing more than they could repay?
No that didnt have anything to do with it. Housing became so expensive that the only way to get on the housing ladder - without rich mummy/daddy/trust fund/50k job in a bank etc - was to borrow hugely. Prices like that were never sustainable and it was always going to crash. If you're not rich then a house is something you'll probably never be able to acquire without borrowing money of some sort.
Is the lender solely responsible, do you really think its ok to borrow money, simply because a lender is willing to give you it.
If nobody ever borrowed money then millions more would be out of work as a huge part of the economy would vanish. Typically people who have money dont need to borrow any so therefore lending it to anybody is a risk of some sort. Do you think its ok for Ireland to borrow money purely because the EU is willing to lend it? In short the lender is 100% responsible because they have the most to lose if the loan/investment etc goes wrong.
And no sorry, i dont think i mentioned only car loan, so you must be telling me??
Well the last time i looked this thread was about falling car sales yet its turned into a Daily Mail message board full of nonsense and bizarre rubbish so i presume the link must be car loans. Its easy for rich people to sit here and say how they bought their first house 70 years ago for £5.47 and how they're so much better than everybody else but you never stop for just one moment to think about the people less fortunate than yourselves. The people who took out loans they couldnt afford didnt do it for fun, most people i've met who ran into trouble took out loans just to get by and then lost their job which was something out of their control. Do you think people enjoy being in debt? The reality is putting the public in debt keeps the wheels turning at the top and its exactly what the financial institutions want. People were merely following the path laid for them and nobody minded when times were good.
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The housing market spiralling out of control is Gordon Brown's fault. He said he wouldn't let it happen, but he did. That's that sortted. :)
Anyway, I do feel sorry for Tony G. Like so many threads this has gone a little wayward, off topic and descended into someting else. Perhaps Avant or another moderator can set up a section 'Arguments', so when one develops, it can be removed to another section.
Also, I feel sorry for people who come on for the first time to ask for advice. Then they find their thread has a discussion going on about something not at all related to their query.
OK, I'm guilty of adding to going off thread. I was going to post the previous two paragraphs elsewhere, but thought this was as good a time, as any.
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I like the idea off the 'Arguments' section! 'Spect I'd be in there a lot...
To be fair, threads like this the are almost certain to drift, since responses will be subjective.
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Sorry but i don't know were you get the impression that i'm rich?
Both my son and daughter have large mortgages, and live in a comfortable sized house.
Neither one borrowed more than they could repay monthly, and only one in each household works.
I have had two large mortgages in my life time, and paid both of very early, due to being highly paid, as in living at work.
I was one of the lucky ones that retired at 52 with a private works pension, and thats what i live on.
We are in this mess because the young of today, not all, but most, want now what we worked towards for years.
My first car i bought at auction for cash, it was a banger with 100K plus on the clock.
I have never bought a car other than cash.
While i sure many do, and then find themselves in the trap of paying one loan off, only to take yet another one out to buy the next car.
Thats my last post on the subject, as i think you are getting personal.
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I was one of the lucky ones that retired at 52 with a private works pension, and thats what i live on....
...We are in this mess because the young of today, not all, but most, want now what we worked towards for years.
The decadent young can expect to work much longer than you did xtrail...
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Sorry but i don't know were you get the impression that i'm rich?
Well let's see...
Both my son and daughter have large mortgages, and live in a comfortable sized house.
Neither one borrowed more than they could repay monthly, and only one in each household works.
I have had two large mortgages in my life time, and paid both of very early, due to being highly paid, as in living at work.
I was one of the lucky ones that retired at 52 with a private works pension, and thats what i live on.
I think all of that sums it up. You keep saying they/you never borrowed more than they could afford to repay, an easy principle to keep to when you can afford quite a lot. The vast majority of people dont have big houses/mortgages with only one worker in the family, the vast majority of people dont get to retire at 52. Your attitude smacks of somebody who has no understanding of the real world due to being nicely cushioned from it.
We are in this mess because the young of today, not all, but most, want now what we worked towards for years.
Do you actually have some proof of that? A copy of the Daily Mail doesnt count as proof by the way. No sensible person with access to facts could possibly think todays young are responsible for the financial crisis. Its those people in banks and Government, people of your age and generation who are responsible. Your lot messed it up and its up to the next generation to pay for your catastrophic errors.
Was it young people with HP on an Astra who grossly mishandled billions of pounds requiring a bailout? Most of them couldnt get a job in Argos so quite how you think they've controlled the financial sector and stock market in order to lose billions im not sure. I dont think you grasp the size of the situation, that £500billion wasnt needed because 23 year olds borrowed a couple of grand to remodel a bathroom, it was because rich old people were throwing BILLIONS of pounds around that they didnt have on things which were never going to make money. Goodwin buying a failing Dutch bank against all advice which required a £20billion bailout all by itself is case in point. Yet he still walks off with a pension big enough to buy a Kings Mansion. What about Goldman Sachs inventing a sub prime mortgage bond specifically designed to lose money, selling it to clients on one side only to tell other clients to bet on it to lose? I suppose i should add *allegedly* to that....
When it comes to Government problems what about the big firms like Vodafone who avoid £6billion in tax? Shouldnt they take a bit of the blame? Again i suppose i should add *allegedly*....
Doesnt sound like you worked much for it at all really, retiring at 52....
My first car i bought at auction for cash, it was a banger with 100K plus on the clock.
Great. Lets get everybody to do that and then the British and Eurozone debt crisis will all be solved!!!! Wahey!!!!
I have never bought a car other than cash.
Nor have i actually, but i know people that have.
Thats my last post on the subject, as i think you are getting personal.
No im talking facts. Its not my fault you dont want to hear them.
The basic fact is the cause of the financial meltdown was a combination of corperate greed and croneyism. Nothing new there. Its happened before and will no doubt happen again and im sure when that time comes the normal people will get shafted while those responsible run off with pensions big enough to buy an Air Force with once again.
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XTRAILMAN,
that makes at least two of us, both retired, worked like crazy for years, got rid of our debts, and that makes us "cushioned from the real world".
Well jamie, you do have aknack for having a go at people, so here is my reply specifically for you...........
If I want to, (and i can afford to!) i will go and buy whatever car i want up to what I think a car is worth, but it doesn't make me "cushioned" if I have chosen to be financially astute, it doesn't make me cushioned, because there are families with one working member and some of them in low paid jobs, so do you think, in your little narrow minded socialist fraternal world that anyone who makes a bob or two is an evil capitalist scumbag?
As usual you have gone completely away from the original post,
Grow up man, and stop moralising so much, it is a motoring forum.
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If I want to, (and i can afford to!) i will go and buy whatever car i want up to what I think a car is worth,
I couldnt care less what you buy or how you buy it, frankly.
so do you think, in your little narrow minded socialist fraternal world that anyone who makes a bob or two is an evil capitalist scumbag?
No, the scumbags are those who look down on those who havent made a bob or two. I do think a rich person, retiring at 52 who then spouts unsubstantiated, nonsense Daily Mail horse manure in which they look at their own generation through rose tinted glasses and blame the younger generation 100% for the problems which the old rich cronies caused does make them a scumbag of some variety, yes.
It does make me laugh that if you dont metaphorically suck a bankers cock then you're apparently some narrow minded deluded socialist. Dont you think its narrow minded to think theres only two options?
worked like crazy for years, got rid of our debts, and that makes us "cushioned from the real world".
Im sure everybody with debts would get rid of them if it were possible, but you're inferior to xtrailman because you had debt to start with. Xtrailman and his precious family are so marvellous that they've never had to do that, which apparently makes them brilliant. Lets face it, people who never have to borrow money at any point in their lives - without ending up bankrupt and on benefits - are usually born with a silver spoon in their mouth, went to a posh school, have rich parents or some other form of unearned wealth. If they've been in high paid jobs then an element of luck is always involved, you couldve easily been overlooked for the next candidate and set you down a different path in life which culminated in you living in a box behind an abandoned warehouse. Who knows?
What i do know is all of these posts from rich middle class toffs with their uni degrees, Surrey houses and BMW X5's are generally people who've never had a real problem to deal with in their entire lives. People who think central heating is a human right and the 'seasons fashion' matters. People who's biggest problem is their Lexus dealership not delivering their 70k car on time. People who's biggest flaw is they cannot stop developing opinions on subjects they know nothing about.
As i said earlier, a principle of 'not borrowing more than you earn' is a very easy gameplan to stick to when you earn quite a lot.
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No, the scumbags are those who look down on those who havent made a bob or two. I do think a rich person, retiring at 52 who then spouts unsubstantiated, nonsense Daily Mail horse manure in which they look at their own generation through rose tinted glasses and blame the younger generation 100% for the problems which the old rich cronies caused does make them a scumbag of some variety, yes.
By the way i dont buy papers, only the local weekly, if you have read anything in the Mail, perhaps you would like to enlighten us?
I have repeatedly stated that i am not Rich.
And what makes you think i am looking down on anybody?
You must have a inferiorty complex. Thats you problem, not mine.
Im sure everybody with debts would get rid of them if it were possible, but you're inferior to xtrailman because you had debt to start with. Xtrailman and his precious family are so marvellous that they've never had to do that, which apparently makes them brilliant. Lets face it, people who never have to borrow money at any point in their lives - without ending up bankrupt and on benefits - are usually born with a silver spoon in their mouth, went to a posh school, have rich parents or some other form of unearned wealth. If they've been in high paid jobs then an element of luck is always involved, you couldve easily been overlooked for the next candidate and set you down a different path in life which culminated in you living in a box behind an abandoned warehouse. Who knows?
I spent the first 21 years of my life in a council house, being provided with free school meals while at school.
Cycled to work until i could afford at car at 20
Yes saved up and paid cash, actually i worked 6 weeks seven days a week to pay for it.
So dont use my name to try and substantiate any conclusions only you have jumped to.
I'm not quite sure were the posh school came from?
So can only assume you have a drinking, or drug problem.
I spent 37 years as an electrician, process control eng, technician.
Not exactly a rich mans wage.
What i do know is all of these posts from rich middle class toffs with their uni degrees, Surrey houses and BMW X5's are generally people who've never had a real problem to deal with in their entire lives. People who think central heating is a human right and the 'seasons fashion' matters. People who's biggest problem is their Lexus dealership not delivering their 70k car on time. People who's biggest flaw is they cannot stop developing opinions on subjects they know nothing about.
The above is complete nonsese, but good for a laugh.
As i said earlier, a principle of 'not borrowing more than you earn' is a very easy gameplan to stick to when you earn quite a lot.
Not its not, its quite easy to only spend what you have, some people like your self seem to struggle with the concept.
Edited by xtrailman on 13/01/2012 at 22:15
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And what makes you think i am looking down on anybody?
Your posts, including the bizarre statement that the reason we're in this mess is 100% (yes 100%) due to young people. I suppose Italy's 1.7trillian euro debt is due to young people getting HP on Astra's.....
Yes saved up and paid cash, actually i worked 6 weeks seven days a week to pay for it.
You're lucky you were born at a time when companys took on 19 year olds. They simply dont take young people seriously anymore and its pretty ordinary for a person to get their first job at 21/22 now.
Not its not, its quite easy to only spend what you have, some people like your self seem to struggle with the concept.
For the record im not in debt but i do remember when i was about 13, my parents both lost their jobs around the same time through no fault of their own. They did everything - including taking on crippling debts which they're still paying off now - to make sure i was unaffected and had a half a chance of going on and doing something. I got a job cleaning cars on a used car site at 17 and saved up for driving lessons, when i was let go and didnt have enough money my parents got me through the rest of it including taking the test three times. At 18 i got a job but the hours were awkward and public transport was of no use, so my parents broke the - quite small - bank once again to buy me a car and insure it. The job was half decent and paid 10% above the min wage which for an 18 year old with no qualifications was too good to turn down, i couldnt afford to not get that on my CV.
Now im nearly 28, earn half decent money and have been invited to a second interview for a job paying nearly 40k. I wouldnt be in this position if but for my parents. I too have only bought cars with cash, people see my Jaguar and presume its either my Dads or its on drip but it isnt. I too believe in only buying what you can afford. I too believe that HP, car loans etc are a waste of money. I dont believe in taking on debt to refit a bathroom if the current one still performs its basic functions, for instance. I dont know why im typing all of this, i guess im just trying to prove that in most cases people who take on debt dont do it because they want to. Im also just trying to point out that people like that are not the cause of the financial meltdown and that 'spend only what you have' can easily go out of the window when you have nothing and children are involved.
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What i do know is all of these posts from rich middle class toffs with their uni degrees, Surrey houses and BMW X5's are generally people who've never had a real problem to deal with in their entire lives. People who think central heating is a human right and the 'seasons fashion' matters. People who's biggest problem is their Lexus dealership not delivering their 70k car on time. People who's biggest flaw is they cannot stop developing opinions on subjects they know nothing about.
I am in my twenties, so I clearly havent taken anything personally, but yes I hold a university degree and my wage is decent. I went to a public school and have had plenty of problems in life thus far (as most do)
Should I be in a position in 20 years to own an X5 (more money than sense) and have a decent house, would that make me belong to the group you describe above?
I tend to agree with a lot of your points but the above makes me think you're just a little bitter in life. Could be wrong, who knows; but that is what it comes across as
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I tend to agree with a lot of your points but the above makes me think you're just a little bitter in life. Could be wrong, who knows; but that is what it comes across as
I dont know if bitter is the right word but ive always been somebody who wants to take on 'the establishment' and has never had any respect for authority. I maybe do have a hang up about my lack of education, i got nothing at school and never did further education in an age where everybody and their dog has a university degree, so yes i go on the offensive when the subject comes up.
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I tend to agree with a lot of your points but the above makes me think you're just a little bitter in life. Could be wrong, who knows; but that is what it comes across as
I dont know if bitter is the right word but ive always been somebody who wants to take on 'the establishment' and has never had any respect for authority. I maybe do have a hang up about my lack of education, i got nothing at school and never did further education in an age where everybody and their dog has a university degree, so yes i go on the offensive when the subject comes up.
What you are is bitter and twisted, you carry a hate for anyone who has a little money, no matter what they did to get it.
You talk about me being lucky.
I was lucky to have my mother die in front of me at 7 years old, i was lucky to be one of a family of six, brought up by a drunken, gambling, chain smoking, child beating dad.
Yes i was also lucky enough to start work at 15, without even a gcse.
But am i bitter and twisted like you, not a chance.
I got a job, worked hard and long, spent 8 years at college, one day and night a week.
And four years of that cost me a days pay, firm payed for first 4 years.
I made my own success.
You have the ignorance to call me rich, you are a joke.
As for your parents taking loans, only shows what fools they were.
My single parent, never borrowed a penny, just worked long hours as a bricklayer, when work was available, at one time he was unemployed for 6 months, we cut back, but NEVER borrowed a penny.
Edited by xtrailman on 14/01/2012 at 08:15
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Just because an idiot bank will loan you more money than you can comfortably pay back should not stop a sensible person thinking about it themselves and realising that they are taking a big risk.
Dont you think people paid 30x the average wage should be taking a bit more responsibility than merely let off with a mention of being an 'idiot bank.' May i remind you these are people who required a £500billion bailout, paid for by the taxpayer which is you, me and everybody else including the people you're blaming for this mess. If i destroyed my company and needed £500billion from the Government i'd spend the rest of my life at the Job Centre yet somehow they're still employed and raking in millions. How can that be possible?
Problem is people do not think carefully, they just jump in and hope someone will pick up the pieces later.
Much like the bankers who receive only reward when they get lucky but zero punishment when they get things wrong. So they can just lump risk upon risk knowing someone else will pick up the pieces (The Government, taxpayer etc) and it'll never affect them. The banks had no problem taking money from those who didnt have any during the good times did they?
Now lets review the rest of your post
Daily Mail nonsense garnished with 'when i was a lad i was so much better' which is getting boring.
Right lets move on...
And wasn't the reason,
(or one of them, before you have to laugh again, and jump on my back,)
the housing market crashed, due to people borrowing more than they could repay?
No that didnt have anything to do with it. Housing became so expensive that the only way to get on the housing ladder - without rich mummy/daddy/trust fund/50k job in a bank etc - was to borrow hugely. Prices like that were never sustainable and it was always going to crash. If you're not rich then a house is something you'll probably never be able to acquire without borrowing money of some sort.
Is the lender solely responsible, do you really think its ok to borrow money, simply because a lender is willing to give you it.
If nobody ever borrowed money then millions more would be out of work as a huge part of the economy would vanish. Typically people who have money dont need to borrow any so therefore lending it to anybody is a risk of some sort. Do you think its ok for Ireland to borrow money purely because the EU is willing to lend it? In short the lender is 100% responsible because they have the most to lose if the loan/investment etc goes wrong.
And no sorry, i dont think i mentioned only car loan, so you must be telling me??
Well the last time i looked this thread was about falling car sales yet its turned into a Daily Mail message board full of nonsense and bizarre rubbish so i presume the link must be car loans. Its easy for rich people to sit here and say how they bought their first house 70 years ago for £5.47 and how they're so much better than everybody else but you never stop for just one moment to think about the people less fortunate than yourselves. The people who took out loans they couldnt afford didnt do it for fun, most people i've met who ran into trouble took out loans just to get by and then lost their job which was something out of their control. Do you think people enjoy being in debt? The reality is putting the public in debt keeps the wheels turning at the top and its exactly what the financial institutions want. People were merely following the path laid for them and nobody minded when times were good.
jamie745
The first 2 points of my post you commented on are fair enough but from "Now lets review the rest of your post" its complete nonsense since I never mentioned the Daily Mail once, never mentioned the housing crash thus I would hope you correct your post and refer it back to whatever post you are commenting about and not mine.
Thanks.
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This is going to get locked!
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Sorry Thunderbird when i wrote 'lets review the rest of your post' i originally went on quote you further but decided to remove that section before posting and forgot to remove that line.
I was responding to whoever said the things i quoted.
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Maybe Avant can remove the irrelevant bits. Avant's life is never dull! :)
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Tony,
Just a thought....................do you advertise on eBay?
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Hi trilogy,
I've tried e bay several times,without success,I tried the auction style e bay,the cars never achieved any where near the retail price ,
E bay classified ads are substantially cheaper than the auto trader web site I use.
Unfortunately they don't generate any enquiries ,so are just a waste of money,
A fair indicator of what e bays about ,is that I often buy cars advertised on e bay from private sellers.
A lot of sellers are clueless about how to Market a use car.
Their adds are badly written ,the car is often dirty and has a short MOT.so they don't achieve the required reserve.
I give them a ring just after the add has finished ,and make them a cash offer,two out of three accept.
I bring the car up to retail standard ,with a new MOT and have it serviced. The other important factor is I take a part exchange , the average reconditioning cost is £220. I then offer the cars on auto trader at a competitive retail price.
On a slightly different tack. With our economy struggling , people loosing their jobs,those in work spending less.Tescos results today are a fair indicator of the economies decline,I wonder how long it will be before we are in the same situation as Greece and Spain.ie a stagnant economy and 12 15% unemployment.
Tony g
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