Steel tensioner,no plastic. Not a common failure item
Obviously best to check it AND the water pump though, when stripped down
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As far as Im aware, the XUD series engine does not have a problem with the tensioners failing. If I were you, to make sure Id ring the Peugeot / Rover dealers in that order and confirm. Also of the 3 high milage XUD's that Ive had, Ive never had to even look at the tappets. Are you sure its not just "diesel rattle"? Ive never changed the belt tensioners on the 5 engines that I've changed belts on (these include friends) and dont know of any failures.
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Thanks for these contributions. Looks like the timing belt is not too much of a problem then.
The tapping I can hear is, I still suspect, a rattly tappet and not the diesel music. It's almost certainly just one - in fact, my garage thought this engine was hydraulic tappets and one is simply gunged up.
Looks like a bit of investigation is necessary eh? Anyway, the belt end oil seal needs replacement so that's another job. I did the other end recently - an easy task and solved a minor dribble of oil
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On my 306, I found the hardest part of changing the timing belt was caused by limited access between the end of the engine and the bodywork. And the two worst knuckle-scraping bits were:
1. Getting the plastic timing belt cover on and off.
2. Loosening and then bolting down the spring tensioner pulley - Haynes says "use a suitable square section key fitted to the hole in the pulley hub", but I couldn't work out how to do that, so I levered the pulley with a long screwdriver.
At 70,000, I just replaced the belt and nothing else. When 140,000 comes, I intend to replace the tensioner (just to be on the safe side), the water pump (which had the tiniest indication of a dribble at 70,000) and the camshaft oil seal (which has already been done once before anyway).
But the limited access to the tensioner pulley makes me wonder whether I could actually manage to get the tensioner pulley back on again when the time comes to replace it.
Haynes also recommends using a special Peugeot tool to tension the timing belt, but I just relied on the tensioner spring automatically applying the correct tension. Supposedly, the tension is about right if the belt can just be twisted through 90 degrees on its longest run.
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No problem with original tensioner on my XUD 1.9 at 250,000+. Not today, anyway.
The only issue at change time last time was grit/oil in the tensioner plunger cylinder causing it to spring back a little on the "lazy" side, i.e. not offer strong enough tension.
Belt manufacturers say that most problems are caused by belts being too slack, not too tight. However, if you need to "supplement" the spring tension with a bit of "elbow grease", then the thing to listen is the belt sounding "tight", suggesting a reduction of tension.
I recall that there is a square hole in the tensioner mechanism which fits a 1/4 inch drive, and this makes life much, much easier as a bar can be used to hold the tensioner back against the spring. Yep, ther eis no space to work against the inner wing. It does get easier with practice, though.
HTH
Rob
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FWIW, this engine has a known weakness (so I understand) of the camshaft bearing (runs more or less plain in the alloy head and is susceptibile to oilway blockage damage). This may be a factor to consider. New head time, if you are seeking mechanical perfection. Otherwise, put up with the noise until the engine falls over (which may be a long time..)
rg
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Dudley,
A complete answer is.....
As Reggie comments these engines actually have a far greater timing belt/tensioner reliability record than many other makes, particularly those others with the sprung plastic tensioner pulleys.
The greatest problem is likely to be a vehicle without history and a belt many thousands of miles over its interval...or where it is contaminated by cam seal oil leaks.
However the reason it's best to keep up to regular changes on the XUD is purely sensible insurance. I keep to the original Citroen 50K interval for the belt and examine the tensioner bearing each time. Usually it will be perfect to leave on at the 50K change, questionable at the 100K chance and (for me) a certain change at 150K latest (I respect RobG but he's pushing his luck at 250K!). IanT is sensible deciding on a similar "every other" approach.
What you are looking for is the slightest feeling of roughness in the otherwise strongly made bearing assembly.
Dudley I can only say if your garage thinks these are hydraulic tappet engines then go elsewhere! They are indeed shimmed as several comment and the clearances should last the whole life of the engine. They are a bit of a pig to do for the DIYer so this adjustment-free aspect is excellent.......BUT....
This lifetime adjustment will only be achieved with oil changes at 6K with decent quality oil and no running it hard at low levels. As Rob says some folks will mention a problem with the camshaft running in plain head bearings. This again will be fine if the engine is serviced properly but abuse the oil change intervals or use rubbish oil and the camshaft can seize in the bearings and snap like a carrot.
If your noise is indeed a tappet the problem can usually be seen by removing the cam cover, sadly in my experience these engines only get such a noise when one/more camshaft lobes are worn very badly and this is obvious to see. Often a replacement cam is the only answer so there is something in Rob's "leave it 'till it dies" theory..
MM
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Hmm, some sound advice in this thread - thanks. I'm going to reserve judgement on what the tapping noise is - I should know on Thursday when the inspection takes place!
I've changed oil at 6 monthly intervals since I don't do 6,000 miles before then and I use a semi-synthetic. Since I've had the car from new and know all it's history, I want to keep it longer (indeed, wife want's to take it over and sell off her Fiesta!). Apart from being a pretty crude diesel installation by current standards, it's a good workhorse, hence my wanting to preclude (expensive) troubles.
I think there's a degree of oil seal leakage contaminating the belt and it's four years since a change, albeit only some 30,000 miles. Good reasons to change belt. Changed the front brake pads last weekend - after some 6 years/47,000 miles. So you see, it has an easy life!
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MM, Dudley, et al,
Just to clarify, Pug has -not- gone to 250K on original timing belt.... It has been changed every 45K, which is probably a bit on the early side but cheaper than a head, valves, pistons, etc.
Back to an old debate here; conversely, if the vehicle has been used mainly around town or as a shopping trolley, I would recommend 45K as a maximum. My Pug has spent most of its quarter of a million as a long-haul motorway cruiser.
I would change the water pump whilst you are down there if the vehicle is "mature" or it shows the slightest leak. Mine gave up with no warning, looking fine when hot, but mysteriously letting the coolant drain out overnight. Fortunatly, the low coolant light showed this up. Phew, (otherwise...)
Similarly, the crankshift oil seal is not that hard to change, and contaminates the belt if leaking. This has been the cause of my tensioner problems, with oil and gunge getting into the plunger mechanism and restricting free movement and hence not giving correct tension.
Another XUD risk appears to be the alternator pulley coming loose and chewing the crankshaft keyway. New crankshaft time. I have known at least one other that has had this problem. My pulley was torqued up to the right setting and "loctite-ed". I seem to recall that it has a lock-washer as well. But it still came loose, giving a charactaristic solid "wunka-wunka" at tickover. Maybe the Woodruff key was made of metallic Plastecine. A new key and dollops of "liquid metal" expoxy glue sorted this.
Apart from thse things (!!) it's a belting good engine. Mine may become a parts donor very soon due to the diff. chewing it's way out of the gearbox, but that's another story..
HTH
rg
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Another XUD risk appears to be the alternator pulley coming loose and chewing the crankshaft keyway. New crankshaft time. I have known at least one other that has had this problem. My pulley was torqued up to the right setting and "loctite-ed". I seem to recall that it has a lock-washer as well. But it still came loose, giving a charactaristic solid "wunka-wunka" at tickover. Maybe the Woodruff key was made of metallic Plastecine. A new key and dollops of "liquid metal" expoxy glue sorted this. HTH rg
Thanks for the comment about the alternator pulley. Last week, mine broke off on my 1.9 TD 406, the bolt appears to have come undone during a long run south. Anyhow, the keyway on the crankshaft has enlarged about 1mm on each side as the pulley rocked back and forth beofre the pulley broke off.
Question - is this a hopeless case requiring a new crankshaft or should I try a loctite compound on the new pulley and smother the keyway in liquid metal in the hopes of keeping it on finishing it all up with a new bolt done to the right torque.
86,000 miles it's a fright to think the engine is toast.
\\canuck
Any suggestions for a lasting fix would be welcome
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Canuck,
"it all depends..."
With mine, the main wear/damage was in the key itself. There was some in the shaft, but this only extended for about 30% of the depth of the keyway. Hence I could still rely on it to give a good fix to the alternator pulley, and proper timing settings to the timing pulley (BTW check yours, as this may have come loose and worked on the shaft at that point too...sorry an' all that...)
My "Liquid Metal" bodge was simply to keep a fairly elderly (91H/215,000)machine going. It was still fine at 243,000 when the timing belt was changed by the local independent, but the chap had a heck of a job getting it off!
But what's the alternative? Engine-out and new shaft? It's worth a try. There are different qualities of this stuff, including something called "Belzona", which has been around for years and is used by the MOD to fix tanks. And I don't mean the type you find in your loft.
Some learned gentlemen will be along in a few moments.
HTH
rg
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Thank you for such an informative reply, I've now done a bit of research on Belzona and can see it's a pretty widely used material so I will give it a go. I've got a new pulley, new bolt, new washer and a new key so if I fill the widend keyway in the crankshaft with it I may get lucky.
BTW, I think it all started by a cam belt replacement where the pulley bolt wasn't as tight as it should be. New bolts are only a £1.50 so I'd recommend that anyone doing this replaced the bolt.
Also - I sent a note to Haynes complaining about how tough it is to get the plastic cam belt covers off. (The manual says undo bolts and lift off, nothing about removing the turbo air pipes and other nearly impossible jobs.)
Anyhow Haynes phoned me up today, offered their apologies and said they completely agreed that this job was a lot tougher than their manual indicates and that they were in progress of rewriting the 406 manual.
A nice response, shows people do listen. One up for Haynes in my book
//Canuck
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MM, Dudley, et al,
Just to clarify, Pug has -not- gone to 250K on original timing belt.... It has been changed every 45K, which is probably a bit on the early side but cheaper than a head, valves, pistons, etc.
Back to an old debate here; conversely, if the vehicle has been used mainly around town or as a shopping trolley, I would recommend 45K as a maximum. My Pug has spent most of its quarter of a million as a long-haul motorway cruiser.
I would change the water pump whilst you are down there if the vehicle is "mature" or it shows the slightest leak. Mine gave up with no warning, looking fine when hot, but mysteriously letting the coolant drain out overnight. Fortunatly, the low coolant light showed this up. Phew, (otherwise...)
Similarly, the crankshift oil seal is not that hard to change, and contaminates the belt if leaking. This has been the cause of my tensioner problems, with oil and gunge getting into the plunger mechanism and restricting free movement and hence not giving correct tension.
Another XUD risk appears to be the alternator pulley coming loose and chewing the crankshaft keyway. New crankshaft time. I have known at least one other that has had this problem. My pulley was torqued up to the right setting and "loctite-ed". I seem to recall that it has a lock-washer as well. But it still came loose, giving a charactaristic solid "wunka-wunka" at tickover. Maybe the Woodruff key was made of metallic Plastecine. A new key and dollops of "liquid metal" expoxy glue sorted this.
Apart from thse things (!!) it's a belting good engine. Mine may become a parts donor very soon due to the diff. chewing it's way out of the gearbox, but that's another story..
HTH
rg
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To confirm some comments made above, a mechanic who I regard as very able says that the Peugeot is one make where you can comfortably rely on the official belt-changing intervals. He also says there is normally no need to change the tensioner pulley but it is a good idea to check the water pump.
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End of thread - the job's done. The considered opinion of the garage was that the tappets are okay and the tapping I can hear is probably diesel noise. Timing belt done, water pump okay, oil seals changed .
All good job - thanks to Andy and the crew at Best Tyres in Exeter.
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I've picked up this thread again in the hope that some wise person may have an answer for me.
I've long let this new belt bed down (although it still whirrs!)and have ignored the tapping noise, but this tapping is certainly now louder and more pronounced. Best Tyres pronounced it not a problem, but I'm still concerned.
It's more noticable over 1800 rpm. It's there even if over-run or full load or even coasing downhill all switched off!
It's a notable tapping. But very hard to hear from the engine bay; it's really notable inside.
Is this a sign of some nasty with the diesel pump perhaps? Hope not - I've just had wife's Fiesta diesel pump leakage repaired and that rebuild cost the same as the value of the car, although goes really well now!
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If it's getting louder over time, then it could be the exhaust blowing (is there a Y-piece somewhere). This particular problem caught me out for 12 months on a 205, worrying about tappets and camshaft, until one day the Y-piece blew properly and the problem was discovered.
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Wow, didn't think of that! I'll have a look around, thanks.
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Sorry to pick up this thread again after such a long period.
I to had the same sort of problem with a tapping noise with my Citroen Xantix, discribed exactly as you said. I measured tappet/cam clearances and all was fine. Checked for exhust leaks, and for a lose pully bolt and could not find out where the noise was coming from. After running for a month with the same noise (and getting fed up with it) I decided to replace the head as after inspection one of the journals on the head looked a bit suspect.
On locking off the engine for the removal of the timing belt I noticed that the belt had slipt at one point in the past and the cam was one tooth out of sync with the rest of the engine. I just re-timed the engine and the noise disapeared.
hope this is of help to any one, as I myself looked for a solution for this problem on many sites and trying all that was sugested before I found out what cause my particular problem.
R
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