Interesting discussion.
Not sure which side I think is right, but I notice that the BBC report says that the man was blown into the path of a van by high winds. That doesn't sound like very safe conditions for landing a helicopter in a busy street with lots of buildings around to generate strange wind effects.
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A few years back a car got marooned in a ford in the Northumbria Air Ambulance's patch.
The river was running a fair bit, but a firefighter I spoke to said they'd be quite happy to wade out on the end of a rope and bring back the car's occupants.
Oh no, we need international rescue, so along comes the chopper with man on winch.
Plenty of eye catching video of a low flying helicopter on the local telly evening news.
I was not the only person who thought that was a show-off job.
Edited by ifithelps on 09/09/2009 at 20:55
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Manatee, the nearest A&E for serious patients (which he was considered at the time) is 50 miles away. Berwick is about 60 miles from Newcastle and about the same from Edinburgh.
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Manatee the nearest A&E for serious patients (which he was considered at the time) is 50 miles away.
There are parts of the NE, and no doubt elsewhere, where the air ambulance is perhaps a less unlikely choice than near the conurbations.
Only last night a friend told me he couldn't persuade his wife to retire to Middleham after she'd found out that they have a volunteer organisation to look after patients waiting for the air ambulance!
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>>... why the second guessing? If I was making those decisions under time pressure I'd be pretty annoyed by the armchair quarterbacks' comments.
I'm actually impressed and relieved that the "guidance" doesn't preclude somebody of 91 being treated. .. >>
Manatee. Well said. I agree that too often we have armchair experts here rushing to judgement without full facts at hand.
The Great North Air Ambulance Service, to give it it's correct name, is a charity. It needs funds to continue its valuable service, and I think they would be offended to hear that people think they are doing "show-off" jobs.
www.greatnorthairambulance.co.uk/pages/about_us
Edited by jbif on 09/09/2009 at 21:08
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I'm another one with Manatee on this - and aren't most of the medical helecopter ambulances private/charity? - I know our club does collections for the Air Ambulance near us...
I suspect that if the risk was as great as some think it was they wouldn't have done it... the cost in lives and money would be too great
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I suspect that if the risk was as great as some think it was they wouldn't have done it... the cost in lives and money would be too great
On second thoughts the decision whether it is safe to land is purely the pilots, the decision to call out the helicopter is a different matter.
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I'm just wondering about all the moans and groans that would appear on here if someone decided that either it was (1) too windy, (2) too cramped (3) not ill enough or (4) too expensive to use a helicopter for this recue.
Good on 'em.
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The feature explains that the helicopter landed on a small roundabout. So maybe location was already known to be usable as a landing place - i.e. it had been worked out that as long as they land on thr roundabout they'd be OK, sort of thing.
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A bit of OTT reporting IMO. I know Marygate well, it's not a narrow street as reported, the market is held there with stalls on both sides and there is still room for 2 way traffic. The helicopter seems to have landed on the Golden Square roundabout, which is a main road junction and is quite large. You can see the spire of the market hall down the road.
I can't remember the nature of the centre of the roundabout but it may well have been designed for a chopper to land on it....a good place in a town centre miles away from an A & E.
I think the film gives a feeling of ' narrowness ' which is not there...have a look at Google Satellite.
Ted
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Ted,
I did as suggested and had a look at Google Satellite. I think the helicopter landed at the mini roundabout at the junction of Walkergate and Marygate where it is narrower than further up.
There is a link on the view to a photo taken of the roundabout from a raised position.
www.panoramio.com/photo/15538286
I'm not qualified to make a decision but I'd certainly prefer 20 minutes in a helicopter to an hour on the road whatever my condition.
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Ted, it is a 'painted on' roundabout, although there is a traffic island on one road leading onto it.
Local reports have it that the chap has a serious injury to his back, but not life threatening. By road, it would have taken well over an hour to reach Wansborough Hospital A&E from Berwick at full tilt - probably longer if they thought the suspected heart condition was less threatening than the back injury. Either way, I suspect he is pleased that the air ambulance was available!
My sister had only one complaint - if it was going to be on the news, couldn't the chap who filmed it have included a shot of her shop ;-)
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The feature explains that the helicopter landed on a small roundabout. So maybe location was already known to be usable as a landing place - i.e. it had been worked out that as long as they land on thr roundabout they'd be OK sort of thing.
Now SF that is good thinking and I concur.
Further though this site is getting too many moaning old gits. The Chopper landed medics. Job done and away. Patient hopefully fine. Life is nothing without risk. Why be a Community Enforcement T Officer when there is real life to live??
Martin in SUNNY Devon.
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Further though this site is getting too many moaning old gits.>>
This moaning old git is as entitled to an opinion as you are sunshine. I have done many seriously risky helicopter transfers.
Edited by Old Navy on 09/09/2009 at 23:46
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im with martin on this one
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Looks like the Aerospatiale Dauphin G-HEMS which was, in a former life, the London Air Ambulance.
Quite common to see it land amongst the trees of Lincoln's Inn Fields and on one occasion on the street in High Holborn. Skilled flying for sure, but no drama or showmanship.
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came home on saturdayand swmbo was quite exicited[ normal] said i thought air ambulance were going to land in the garden
had a nice weekend previously in hellidon in northampton shire open gardens raising funds for said ambulance. thought i might have won the raffle prize
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One of my curry night chums is a paramedic who flies on the Thames Valley helimed chopper. The feedback I get from him shows that they and particularly the pilots do a fantastic job. They don't attend any trivial event. On a recent shout attending a cardiac arrested child run over by a van, they were airborne within 50 seconds.I hope no one in my family ever requires their services.
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I wouldn't try second guessing the pilot's decision making process unless you've flown that aircraft type and that type of job. As captain he is responsible for the aircraft, and its crew, and I very much doubt he's "showing off to camera" to raise funds. Bear in mind that his license is on the line (and thus his mortgage...) every time he takes control of the helicopter.
The winds will certainly have abated by the time he was on scene - gusty winds around buildings don't mix with confined area helicopter landings.
Bear in mind that at the time of the shout the victim's state will have been less clear - we are talking from hindsight, now he's got to hospital. Given the chance that he could have deteriorated fast due to possible internal injuries while in transit, then a 20 min helicopter ride is far preferable to a 75 minute road journey.
FWIW it probably was not that hard a job - buildings don't move around, and the road was solid. Try landing on a ship's deck at night ;-0
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I've looked up the 365's rotor diameter - 12m/40ft, and overall length inc turning rotor is 13.75m/45ft, which is ample, as according to Google Earth, that junction is about 65ft in diameter.
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Thanks for your input onb, I will try to resist my comfortable experts armchair.
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If people don't like the risks, then shove off out of the area.
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I too know Berwick very well , I was actually born there and spent the first 18 years of my life in the area.
As my name implies I am reasonably well up on helicopters as well .
Its much wider where he landed than it seems from the film.
I also think the callout was reasonable when you consider the distance to the nearest specialist hospital.Edinburgh or Newcastle are not the nearest for heart problems.
My half brother still lives there and is in his late eighties. He had a heart attack a couple of years ago and was transported to the hospital in Ashington which is still around 40 miles.
He went by ambulance and was lucky to survive the journey so a helicopter for a 91 year old hit by a car and with possible heart problems is a no brainer.
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A nice piece of coordinated team work by all parties concerned. The chopper pilot had plenty of space, routine and all part of their duty call. If the pilot is military trained they have to cope with ground & air hostiles in a pressure situation, no sign of that happening on this call. An in/out job and a life saved which is always good to hear.
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The armed forces do not let you loose on multi million pound toys if they think you are going to showboat and put lives ( apart from the enemy ) at risk.
Ex military pilots will have thousands of hours of training and flying time . My company use a lot of ex military pilots from all over the world and I know that to most of them a good night is a Pizza in front of the television... one I found one night in front of the telly knitting a scarf for his grandaughter...they all tend to be very careful because they know that one small misjudgement could be their last .
Prime example of the risks of showboating is Colin Macrae (RIP) . A great rally driver but too inexperienced to do what he was trying to do with his helicopter when he crashed according to the AAIB report.
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The armed forces do not let you loose on multi million pound toys if they think you are going to showboat and put lives ( apart from the enemy ) at risk.
Oh, just jog our memories, will you?
Who was it that visited his girlfriend in one of our armed forces helicopters - landing behind her house?
Who used an armed forces helicopter to visit a golf pro for lessons?
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But they were neither 'showboating' or 'putting lives at risk', were they? we might have objected to paying for the fuel but they did do it safely ;-) after all, when a young lad passes his driving test and pops round to show off to his girlfriend and her parents, he is going to be driving really safely on that trip.
Rather like firemen rescuing cats - an exercise to further their skills, so I have heard, with the added bonus of pleasing a member of the public.
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But they were neither 'showboating' or 'putting lives at risk' were they?
>>
tinyurl.com/nz9bce
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www.gremline.com/index_files/page0041.htm
This is a precis of the Macrae crash report. The full report is online somewhere because I have read it .
Slight contrast in the matter of taking risks with the Prince William flght.
A good pilot will always fly as high as possible . In this case the helicopter was in a deliberate steep dive into a valley and the video taken by one of the passengers shows that it had been flown by the pilot in an 'exuberant ' manner with little or no regard for regulations ....
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On many occaisions I have been delivered to, and collected from, submarines in poor, (and bad, scary weather), by air sea rescue helicopters. Not essential, but efficient use of my time when working on many vessels for short periods. Good training for the helicopter crew, dropping me into, or lifting me out of the 4' square moving target out of sight of the pilot. When hanging on the wire I often thought "I would rather they did this with a sack of spuds". Using the helicopter as a taxi was put down to "training".
Edited by Old Navy on 11/09/2009 at 16:58
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"A good pilot will always fly as high as possible ."
A bit of a sweeping generalisation, if I may say so. Few if any advantages in flying above 2,500', even in a single, piston-engined helicopter, though I'm a 100% turbine man myself.
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A good pilot will always fly as high as possible
Extract from your link :
The first point in the BHAB?s Code of Conduct is:
?ALWAYS FLY AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE consistent with the weather and other factors. This will reduce your projected noise at ground level, and also give you more scope to find a suitable landing site in the event of an emergency.??
However, for combat missions height is mission dependent.
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I have just been to a presentation by
surreyairambulance.co.uk/home/virtualtours.
"The helicopter needs six to eight feet clearance for the rotor blades to allow it to land.
(Their choppers have no tail rotors which reduces one source of further injuries )
There are about 18 groups with helicopters in the country but 4/5 areas not covered.
Fantastic level of coverage and the highest skills level on board the Surrey version but needs £750,000 p/a to maintain this.
Other areas of the country are unfortunately not covered to this high standard.
An amazing charity service.
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I agree Henry , a charity very deserving of our support...they really do a good job and you never know when you might need them.
I spotted the Surrey Air Ambulance helicopter on the ground and the pilot and paramedics in the cafe at Redhill airfield when I flew into there a couple of weeks ago, Redhill is very handily placed for any M23 and M25 calls.
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Their website has a little interactive section that shows how quick a 150mph helicopter can get to the incident.
>>.... very handily placed for any M23 and M25 calls.
and a few other fast A roads in the county
In addition to RTAs some other sources of " customers" were :-
Horse riders, walkers and golfers, some of which may not have mobile phone contact and are often not at a a post code so referring to a paper map is still required to locate them.
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