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Yes, I think this will be my last Vauxhall if this is the quality you get. A camshaft should NEVER fail in normal service, as they are virtually indestrctable if designed and made correctly. It seems to be restricted to 05 and 55 plate cars, so there is an obvious quality issue with a certain batch of camshafts, and we only hear about the ones that have failed out of warranty. I would be very surprised if VX released statistics on these failures.
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I can fully understand why Vauxhall would be crossed off your car buying list, but as you say, the problem is with a limited number of Corsas.
There's nothing to suggest a new Corsa will not be every bit as reliable as any other supermini.
There is very little sentiment in business, but your Vauxhall dealer sounds like a reasonable outfit to me, and you sound like reasonable a person.
Could be worth giving them the opportunity to quote for your next car - they just might feel obliged to help you along a bit.
When I was selling cars, we would try to help a customer who had some bad luck with his car, particularly if that customer had been reasonably pleasant to us in the difficult circumstances.
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Given that Vauxhall is up for sale, anyone hoping for any goodwill gesture is likely to be disappointed. All costs will be scrutinised.
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Hi - I was driving home last night and had a warning light... the usual story, it's an 05 Corsa and it looks like a camshaft error. It's currently with a local independent garage who said this morning it looked like a broken cam and he'd never seen the like. So I'm wondering - should I contact Vauxhall (if so, which bit - the dealer I got it from, the HQ?) or isn't it worth it? If so, should I do that before it is fixed or send them an invoice? As it's currently at an independent garage do I ask him to hold off in case Vx need to look at it? (But then won't Vx charge way more than an independent?). It is 3-4 weeks out of the Network Q warranty period.
Any advice greatly received.
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If he hasn't dismantled anything, but has removed the cam cover to look at the cams see if the camshaft cap bolts are loose - get photos if they are, then look forwards to bashing your head on a wall until VX eventually stump up the readies before you get to the small claims court.
Read the 3 other volumes on this topic for advice.....
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Is the pitiful amount Vx might contribute worth the hassle of getting the car towed and the extra expense of paying for Vx to work on it? My last service was not with Vx (but all others were) so will they automatically balk at it because of that?
Basically, even though it seems to be a manufacturing fault going on what everyone's said here, is it worth the stress of trying to pursue it, or should I just be very badly out of pocket instead?
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i agree
at the end of the day its only an old corsa
these later models all sound like skeletons having a dance in a dustbin,why do people buy them plus the other problems they have,they can be a second hand retail nightmare
no wonder vauxhall have gone bust
they deserve it
they have sold rubbish for 9 years now
absolutely rubbish ecu systems where you darent sneeze and the eml lights
ive had more problems with vauxhalls these last 5 years than any any other car
total abysmal
good riddance to them
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at the end of the day its only an old corsa
It's an 05 model, so it's only been the road for 4 years -- and these days, that's not old.
Thirty years ago, a 4-yo car was a worthless thing. At that age, it was probably starting to rust, and plenty of such cars had engines which became troublesome after only 60,000 miles. But now most cars have galvanised bodies and don't rust unless damaged, while most engines seem to be good for at least 100,000 miles with routine maintenance. Amongst my nearest neighbours I see cars 6, 7, and even ten years old while still look like nearly-new and run fine.
I know nothing about Corsas, and it may indeed be true that they are a pile of rubbish ... but a 4-year-old one is not "old" -- in fact it's barely middle-aged.
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Snapped Camshaft - pete and ed.
We have just received final settlement of the claim, and have notified the court that no further proceedings are required.
To re-cap:-
The 2005 Corsa 1.2 SXi 33k miles suffered a snapped Camshaft on 10th of March 2009.
car had fully up to date Vauxhall service history.
Car was repaired by a Vauxhall garage and we got it back on the 25th of March, at a 70% cost to us of £862.45p.
Whist it was stripped down I found out, that 3 Camshaft Bearing Blocks were found to be loose, this fact was noted by the Vauxhall mechanic and stated on the Vauxhall visual health check report.
As we could not get 100% compensation thru, the garage, I sent a letter of intent to the Vauxhall Head Office for the attention of Mr W Parfitt MD. this stated we would issue a County Court Claim against Vauxhall Motors UK. to recover all costs in full including court fees, out of pocket expenses and any interest incurred up to a maximum of £5000 if I had not received a favourable reply within 14 days.
Vauxhall replyed on the 3rd of April with an increased offer of 50% from the 30% this offer we turned down, and issued court proceeding on 7th April 2009.(Cost £85)
The claim was against Vauxhall Motors UK - and reads.
Vauxhall UK sold a new Corsa which was NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE ie The Camshaft Bearing Caps in the engine, which locate the Camshaft were not secured correctly on initial engine build, which resulted in the caps working loose and allowing undue pressure and stress to be exerted on the rotating camshaft, causing it to fracture.
Value of claim:- £862.42 Cost of repair
£225.00 Cost of private inspection report.
£1260.00 Expenses due to loss of transport
£85.00 Court Fee.
Total - £2432.42
On the 20th of May received the Defendant's (Vauxhall) defence from their acting Solicitors, Duane Morris. They deigned everything but then made a gesture of good will by paying the repair costs, expert report and court issue fee. a total of £1177.42 which we received by cheque on the 30th of May.
We decided to carry on with the case and try to get the loss of transport expenses.
We attended a pre-liminary hearing on 11th August to resolve this outstanding issue, It was ordered by the Judge that we could only against petrol/mileage costs.
Our new claim was issued on the 22nd of August for £324.05p.
On the 7th September we were offered £200 in full and final settlement, which we accepted.
During the whole episode (6 Months) Vauxhall have never admitted any fault with the car, and we have not had the opportunity in court to bring the Snapped Camshaft problems to the attention of the court or general public, perhaps now that Vauxhall is under new ownership there may be a better chance in getting a recall, but dont hold your breath.
Regards
Pete Kershaw.
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I'm curious. As this is now the 4th thread on this topic, is anyone going to Watchdog to bring it to the attention of the 8million or so viewers?
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We tried Watchdog also Quentin Willson Go no reply from either.
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...We tried Watchdog also Quentin Willson Go no reply from either...
They might be more interested now, because you've done most of their legwork for them by obtaining the settlement.
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The Corsa is the second best selling car in the UK (at least it was) so of course you will always get a load of bad ones because there are a lot more of them. There is many people on the Corsa site running some very old ones with some very high milleage. I think things started to go wrong when Vauxhall used a plastic gear linkage on the C.
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£1260.00 Expenses due to loss of transport
Thanks for writing all that up.
I'm intrigued to wonder how you came up with such a figure for "loss of transport"?
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We loaded the claim as much as we could, to put as much pressure on Vauxhall to negotiate.
This loss of transport amount came about because when my son,s car was in for repair, I drove him to and from his place of work, owing to his age(under 21) he was unable to get insurance cover for a hire car.
I am a self employed design engineer, my charge rate is £25 per hour, and I used this in working out the £1260.
ie. 3 Hours a day @ £25/Hr
60 miles a day @ 40p/mile
over 12 working days.
I never expected to get the full amount, but I did take the claim as far as possible.
Pete.
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I have a Vauxhall Tigra, same engine as the Corsa, and on Tuesday I broke down the same way as everyone else. Was told yesterday that the exhaust manifold had broken and the camshaft has snapped. I have had it from new in 05 and full history with the dealer and only 13500 on the clock. My extended warranty ran out in June. The bill so far is £690 with a prospect of another £700 if the valves are damaged which they won't know until the cam and manifold are fixed. Vx have agreed to pay 50% but reading on here how big a problem this apperas to be with 05 reg, I'm now incredibly hacked off. I thought 50% wasn't so bad until I realised that this does appear to be a manufacturing fault and we're being expected to foot the bill. No wonder there was no recall, it was the same with the valve issue on the first Tigra, £700 to fix and was a known fault but Vx refused to handle it as a recall. Again, same engine as the Corsa. If anyone has had any positive feedback from any trading standards bodies that I can quote while the car is still with the garage I would love to hear from you.
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If anyone has had any positive feedback from any trading standards bodies
Step by step detail of what to do are in Pete and Ed's long post above.
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I don't think it the Tigra uses the same engine, the engine with the common problem is the 1.2 16v which is chain driven, I am pretty sure the Tigra uses the 1.4 and 1.6 belt driven engines.
If I am right in your case it is an isolated case and not related to the problems discussed here.
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Fair point Rattle but the process in taking Vauxhall to Court is of valid interest.
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PU
Can you explain how they succeeded in a claim against Vauxhall (ie the manufacturer) and not the supplying dealer please. I assume that it wasn't bought directly from VX.
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I am pretty sure the Tigra uses the 1.4 and 1.6 belt driven engines.
According to the data I have, the Tigra -B only uses 3 engines. The 1.4 & 1.8 petrol, and the 1.3 diesel.
The 1.4 and 1.3 engines are chain, and the 1.8 is belt.
The Tigra-A used the 1.4 & 1.6 petrol engines, both had cambelts.
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DD so I wonder if the 1.4 and 1.3 are family 0 engines then in which case the block would be pretty much the same as the 1.2 16vs. I just assumed the 1.4 has always been a family II unit.
The reason I ask is it would be hand for the OP to know if the engine is the same type which has been affecting all these other Corsas.
Edited by Rattle on 02/10/2009 at 20:11
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Its not the same engine, but the general guidance in the post is invaluable.
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Can anyone point to a specific batch or engine number?
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This car Came in on AA recovery to garage friday..
Here is another,,,,
camchain type 4cyl engine
ASTRA 1.4 coupe 2005 broken Ex camshaft
loose bearing cap bolts on 3 caps fatigue fracture. 40k miles..
Customer just finished paying for car over two years 8k?
..she is so upset she is even considering selling it broken
when I told her if there are bent valves it will be at least £500 ( which is CHEAP) including parts...but she has NO money spare whatsoever in these difficult times....what can you do eh??
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If you buy an 8k car but can't afford a 500 quid repair then your can't afford an 8k car.
Otherwise she has my sympathies.
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Agreed - and there might be an element of playing the skint card in a bid to get something for nothing.
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If you buy an 8k car but can't afford a 500 quid repair then your can't afford an 8k car.
None of us know the circumstances involved or what has happened to this family in the 2 years since they started to buy the car, £8K may well have been a frugal purchase at the time.
The engine shoudn't be falling apart at 40K miles anyway.
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the engine isnt fallling apart
its gone for a short break
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If you buy an 8k car but can't afford a 500 quid repair then your can't afford an 8k car.
Bit unsympathetic there I feel.
At least without knowing the full facts, maybe the owner had a good job and was made redundant?
I understand one or two people have suffered that indignity lately......
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If you buy an 8k car but can't afford a 500 quid repair then your can't afford an 8k car. Otherwise she has my sympathies.
Hi, the camshaft on my 1.2 SXi has recently snapped. I honestly cannot believe that this has happened since my car has only done 21,000 miles!!! I now know after reading the many posts on this site that it is a common fault, although this is not very reassuring to think that something so serious can go wrong so soon! I have today emailed Vauxhall in the hope of some sort of explanation, although I am not convinced that I will receive a response from them.
I previously had a 1.2 Corsa Club which was an X reg. This car suffered no serious problems whatsoever throughout the 18 months that I owned it, which is why I opted for another Corsa!
To my dismay, on the 12th December 09 my SXi became powerless and something started rattling, which I now know was the camshaft snapping in half. The car has been serviced every year without fail, and my dad ensures that the water and oil etc is topped-up regularly.
In response to the message above, I think that this is extremely unfair of you to make such a judgement. I paid £6k for my Corsa last April and did not foresee that 6 months later I would be moving out of my parents' home to live on my own. If I had of known this at the time, I would not have purchased the vehicle. I am therefore still paying off the finance in monthly instalments, and will be until April 2011, and I now owe my dad £340 for the replacement of the camshaft. I was advised by the mechanic that I was extremely lucky that he managed to repair it for this amount as it could have cost me £1k if more work was required, which is a slight consolation.
Should I ever receive a response from Vauxhall, I shall post their reply on here for everybody?s perusal.
Thanks to this site for bringing such problems to light. It is nice (in a way) to know that I am not the only one with this problem.
In the meantime, if anybody discovers a reliable car that is affordable, please let us all know!!!
Claire
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In response to the message above, I think that this is extremely unfair of you to make such a judgement <<
Not really a judgement, simply an observation of modern money handling.
Having a 'contingency' fund or simply not having all of your monthly income going out on day one seems lost to many.
Catastrophes happen, and circumstances can change for the worse but a £500 repair bill may happen on even the most reliable type of vehicle and must be in your mind when you purchase a vehicle. Sometimes even simple service items such as brake discs/pads or exhausts can amount to several hundred pounds that were not anticipated.
I think ending up with a £340 bill is excellent - it could easily have been >£1000.
Some people surmise that the original fault is due to inappropriate or incorrectly tightened bolts that hold the camshaft down. If they are right, hopefully the repaired vehicles will not suffer similarly in another 30k miles.
Just now, you're probably wondering whether to keep the car or move it on - if money is tight it is usually best to keep your current vehicle presuming no further damage occured. Switching you car will likely lose you over £1000 simply by paying for a dealer's profit on a vehicle which may not be any more reliable.
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"Not really a judgement, simply an observation of modern money handling."
Well, how nice to be perfect! What a sanctimonious, pompous and frankly unhelpful comment to somebody who is obviously in trouble. I have every sympathy with this young lady (and all the others so affected). As the father of two daughters myself I have done my fair share of keeping them on the road. One was a probation officer doing the sort of job very few of us would savour for a very poor salary, and guess what - she needed to get to work and had to have a car that between us we kept on the road. Perhaps Lygonos you might do better to think of others more in the future rather than displaying your all encompassing knowledge and patronising people who are too polite to say what they really think.
MGs
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Having a 'contingency' fund or simply not having all of your monthly income going out on day one seems lost to many.
There are many people who did have a contingency fund, but due to the current economic climate, they now find their income reduced whilst the outgoings continue to rise.
I am one of those people, and its getting to the stage I cannot manage to share my money around - my income over the last 18 months has dropped by approx 20% - pray tell what I can do to handle my (lack) of money better?
FYI I have reduced my outgoings, for instance I havent been out to the flicks, or a pub, for over a year, and I buy own brand food where possible, and always buy supermarket standard unleaded (motoring link!)
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what can you do eh??
Step by step detail of what to do are in Pete and Ed's long post above.
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yes I briefed her about all I had found on Tinternet......
I dont think she is mentally up for a 6 month small claims battle and she still has to pay for repair up front....
.well I tested compression 250 psi on 1 and 2 cyls 210 on 3 and 4 hmmmm
(no ex valves opening on these two)
maybe get away with just a new cam with new cap bolts and loctite this time...only way to find out is put cam in...... if it runs SELL IT!
So watch out for Black 1.4 2005 coupe only 40k miles bargain.....yea right....
Dont get me wrong I am a vauxhall fan up to the point they started timing chain engines from suzuki.... the old 8 valve 1.3/1.6 was a cracking engine why fix something that was not broke in the first place eh??
10Nm for the bearing caps is so low my torque wrench only goes down to 20Nm...Thats like using your little finger to tighten a small spanner....!! If in doubt LOCTITE everything work for me....
Will visit VX tommorow and have a chat as I am Trade club member.....
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 26/10/2009 at 10:16
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>>If in doubt LOCTITE everything work for me....
Seriously, ... Don't use Loctite. You just might make the situation worse.
Loctite can hinder the mechanism whereby torque on the fastener is converted by the threads into tension in the bolt, which might then not clamp the joint correctly.
As far as I am aware, no-one (outside Opel) understands *exactly* why these bolts are loosening.
It might be that the female threads in the head are pulling out, and the bolt looses tension - Loctite does nothing for that.
It might be that the bearing cap is not as hard as it should be and the bearing area under the bolt head is failing - Loctite does nothing for that.
It may be that the preload is not sufficient to prevent the joint opening up under load, and over-stressing the bolt - Loctite does nothing for that.
There's a whole load of other failure mechanisms....
For an M6 fastener in Aluminium, 10 Nm is about right. Making sensible assumptions, 10 Nm should equate to about 8 kN of load in each bolt - equivalent to 800 kg. Use Loctite, and I am sure you would not get anywhere near 800kg of load on the bolt.
I understand there have been some modified parts on these engines - that may be worth asking about while at the parts counter.
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Seriously ... Don't use Loctite. You just might make the situation worse.
Could something like a lock tab washer be used instead?
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NC, I understand that the failures of these camshafts may have nothing to do with the fasteners and I enjoy your informed comments :"simple" failures probably aren't!
Slightly off topic, I'm interested to learn a bit more about Loctite: does Loctite interfere with the torqueing of a bolt/nut in the same way as lubricant?
Is there a crude way of compensating , say by adding 10% or something like that?
The reason I ask is that I used Loctite on many nuts and bolts on my racing motorcycles that were subject to "unscrewing" due to vibration . I was told by a learned friend that Loctite was better than say a lock washer because it cushioned the threads and prevented metal to metal "fretting".
Is Loctite something I should be more careful about using?
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>>does Loctite interfere with the torqueing of a bolt/nut in the same way as lubricant?
Is there a crude way of compensating , say by adding 10% or something like that?
In a fundamental way, yes, Loctite affects the friction torque between the threads. The problem is that the different grades of Loctite behave differently, and the original dry friction pair of materials and clearances obviously affects the initial behaviour of the joint, so, for both of those reasons, it's difficult to quantify the effect of the change.
If I were specifying a Loctite protected joint, I would not do so before carrying out experiments to determine the correct change in tightening specification to cancel the effect of the Loctite. Depending upon the detail of the joint, for example, I might grind the ends of a number of fasteners flat and square and measure the change in the total length of the fastener using a micrometer before and after installation.
Just to clarify, I have nothing against using Loctite where it is correctly specified, my concern is in its unilateral specification in the workshop or garage without sanction by the manufacturer.
If you had metal to metal fretting, then, you probably also were suffering movement across the joint - a good solution would be to fit tight fitting dowels to prevent the relative motion, and leave the bolts to react purely tensile loads. In cases where relative motion across the joint is unavoidable, most vehicle (air, rail, and road) design rules call up mechanical locking methods - Nord-Lock washers can be very effective in this regard.
DD - yes, tab washers can be used. However, the problem with them is that to prevent embedding of the bolt head and resulting loss of bolt pre-load, a "bearing stress" failure, the washer should ideally be made of a hard steel - it's difficult to bend hard steel!
One possibility in this case might be to Loctite in a stud, and then use a pair of locking nuts and hard washer from the top.
However, without fully getting to grips with the root cause of the bolts becoming loose in the first place, these possible solutions are just guesses.
Edited by Number_Cruncher on 26/10/2009 at 19:21
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If the bolts took 4 yrs/40,000 miles to loosen, then a torque check once a year would put my mind at rest.
I've got a 55 reg Corsa I look after. It takes less than 10 minutes extra on the service to check, fortunately no loose bolts yet to report.
Think you're reading into this far too much.
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>>Think you're reading into this far too much.
If you read back the threads, you'll find I suggested a routine check of the bolts higher up - and this was argued with by brum.
I agree with your approach - it's a quick and easy check which costs very little.
One thing we don't know is how long bolts can remain loose before the cam snaps - i.e., is an annual check sufficient?
However, any more permanent fix needs to based on a sound understanding of the mechanism which causes the bolts to become loose to begin with. I write based upon experience I've gained investigating a number of bolt failures on various safety critical parts of rail vehicles, and my experience tells me that;
a) bolt failure problems are rarely simple
b) a failure to get to the root cause will mean the problem persists, and will come back to bite you.
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I would have thought an annual check would suffice, as I have yet to read of a camshaft failing on a car less than 3 years old - unless of course they were repaired under warranty without question.
If the theory is true that the caps are a little soft, deforming slightly and causing the bolt to lose its grip over time, then I would have thought there would be some tell-tale signs upon removal.
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I would have thought there would be some tell-tale signs upon removal.
Yes, but, you really need to know what to look for.
During installation to 8 Nm, the bolt elongates by about 30 to 40 microns over the stressed length. So, you can imagine that any embedding or deformation of the caps of about that value will completely slacken the bolt without the head having turned through a minute of arc.
So, we're looking for deformations that are comparable with the thickness of a human hair! I don't think any mechanics are actually going to check in anything like that detail!, and alas, short of paying to have some samples looked at more closely under some magnification, there isn't an easy way to find out
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It does seem beyond belief that Vauxhall or its godfathers won't have checked this in the minutest detail. If they have then they are keeping quiet about the findings. One might call it corporate carphoundry.
What is needed here is a heroic whistleblower. I understand whistleblowing is a growth industry.
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This engine has been around since the late 90s. If it's only affecting models around 2005 its unlikely to be a design problem - surely a poor quality batch of caps or incorrect torquing on assembly.
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>>its unlikely to be a design problem
I tend to agree; with the qualification that the design isn't robust against whatever changed in 2005.
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Sorry to those of you that have been in contact with me for going silent on this issue but I decided to take legal action and was advised to stop open communications during the process.
After spending several months in preparing some good evidence which I hoped would back up a claim I proceeded to test the water via "money claim online", which for a cost of £80 seemed reasonable. Unfortunately you are very limited to what you can put to describe your claim on the initial form.
A brief summary of my outline was;
My Corsa (reg no) suffered a camshaft failure at 25K miles just outside of warranty. This is a component that should be expected to last for the lifetime of the vehicle.
Further research has hilighted many other consumers all suffering the same type of
failure with vehicles of the same age.
It is apparent that there was a defect at manufacture and I therefore deem the
vehicle was not fit for purpose.
I have communicated on many occassions with General Motors who refuse to offer any
assistance for the £xxxx repair bill for reasons that are inconsistent with the
supporting evidence I hold and in contraventionn of BER 1400/2002. (This last bit only applies if your car was not serviced by a main dealer).
I submitted the claim and within 14 days have received settlement in full + the £80 fee with no contention by GM!
Maybe the message is at last getting through.
It is evident from this forum that this matter is being handled in an inconsistent manner by GM so any of you wishing to try the same route may not be as successful as me but good luck to you all if you decide to try.
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Well done for sticking with it and thanks for the update.
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I have contacted Trading Standards about my vehicle, they said to challenge the finance complany to pay up as it's less that 6 years old. The finance company said they wanted a letter from the independent mechanic stating he believed it was a manufacturing fault. This was duly sent. They then said that wasn't sufficient evidence but wouldn't be drawn on what WOULD be sufficient evidence.
Vx are being their usual selves, they told the dealership they have had some problems with cam shafts but are still denying it's anything that requires a recall.
The dealership have offered to do the work at cost: has anyone had this done and will their prices be reasonable(ish) at cost? Also: would I still have a chance of challenging someone and getting my money back afterwards (e.g. going back to the finance company with the VX report or going through the small claims) or would my agreeing to the dealership repairing it at cost ruin my chances of getting anything back?
Do the dealership do the Vauxhall check thingy people have mentioned as standard or do I specifically have to ask for that? Do they give you a copy as standard?
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A familiar story is to follow:
Travelling 50mph, and the emissions light comes on and then loose all power, RAC have a look at it and no compression in cylinder 3 - tow it to Vauxhall dealership and they phone to say its a snapped camshaft.
55 plate corsa 1.00 litre, 39, 327 miles. full Vauxhall servicing history, last done 6 weeks ago and all was fine. I am the only owner of the vehicle.
Vauxhall dealership say they need to fix broken camshaft first £420 before they know about further damage, but 9/10 cases there is costing up to £1800. I have asked for an explanation and they say its to do with a possible misfire.
I have phoned Vauxhall customer services and between themselves and the dealership they are offering a goodwill gesture of 20%. I stated I wasn't satisfied and could they offer anything more and they went away and phoned back today and won't budge at 20%.
I am a little stuck as how to respond:
Others with experience I need your advice....do I push for more? Have they been like this with others with their goodwill gestures and have you eventually got more out of them? and how did you manage this?
Do I think about issuing a letter of intent? Also do I go ahead and get the work done then try and make a claim or should I sort it all out before getting my car fixed.
Would appreciate any help,
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Time I joined the discussion. 1.2, 55reg, 36k miles. Exhaust camshaft broke in two towards RHS leaving 3 valves not operating. I'm a competent DIY mechanic (had engineering training way back) so did it myself. Checked compression - seemed OK so I was extremely lucky. Wrote to VX - not interested despite follow-up letter (via email). The rightmost cam cap could be unscrewed by hand without tools. This must have led to a stress fracture adjacent to the next journal along. The camshaft is only available from VX for over £200. I negotiated some discount. I should have replaced the cam followers and tappets ideally but didn't, but it sounds OK after correct camshaft running-in. I DID use loctite as I figured if I were a betting man I'd put money on loctited cap screws rather than not, although I appreciate number-cruncher's reservations. I checked the still good inlet camshaft and all bolts required significant re-torquing to 8Nm. I no longer trust this engine and will sell the car asap. I'm also a Volvo enthusiast so appreciate "proper" engineering. My impression is that to get modern engines to be more efficient, they are built using lighter materials and smaller fasteners e.g. torx and star fittings that seem too small for the job in hand. With the Corsa camshaft, the sprocket is retained with a comparatively small star head bolt which is torqued to 50Nm plus 60 degrees - you have to be extremely careful not to let the star socket slip on the bolt head thus damaging it. I can supply more disassembly / assembly information if required. Regards.
Mega Snipquote - obviously you missed the request NOT to quote the whole message you're replying to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 05/11/2009 at 19:02
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Mega Snipquote - obviously you missed the request NOT to quote the whole message you're replying to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>>>> but a very good post by logic and everything he wrote i would agree with
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Apolgies, I realised I'd clicked the wrong button but was rushing and couldn't see how to edit as a first time poster. (Now I do).
Edited by logic on 05/11/2009 at 22:35
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The main comment I have on logic's post is that there's no reason to fear small bolts - in a number of cases, bolts subject to varying load fail because the bolt is too big! This might sound odd, but, it's true!
The reason is that the bolt AND the joint are parallel loadpaths, and they share any fluctuation in load - the bolt seeing a bit more tension, and the joint seeing a little less compression. This sharing in load is inverse to the stiffness of the loadpath, and so, you want to design an extremely stiff joint, and a compliant bolt, i.e., a long thin bolt - despite looking wrong to people who haven't worked in the engineering of bolted joints, this long thin bolt is less likely to suffer a fatigue failure than a more substantial "looking" bolt.
I think the term "stress fracture" must be medical in origin, because I've never seen it used in an engineering context. Stress, yes; fracture, yes; but not stress fracture.
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Number_Cruncher: Please excuse my terminology, my background is in Electrical rather than Mechanical engineering so I'm more comfortable with Volts than Newtons.
However, your explanation of using thinner bolts is interesting. I had presumed that the friction between the bolt head and the clamped surface was of most significance i.e. it would appear initially that a larger bolt (thus bolt head), tightened to a higher torque would clamp "better" than a smaller bolt head but I see that the smaller dia. bolt would be more "compliant" with the joint. However, when you consider the "stress" (I presume that's the correct term) imposed by a rotating camshaft on the camcaps, it seems logical to assume that a higher torque (thus larger dia. bolt) is preferable otherwise loosening of the joint seems more likely due to, say, vibration. I realise this isn't exactly scientific - more of an assumption resulting from handling many types of joint. So is this a flawed assumption? In which case, why are cylinder head bolts (or studs/nuts) of a larger diameter than, in the Corsa engine case, the camcap bolts when identical alloy is being clamped? Is the mass of material being clamped a major factor? Regards.
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Has anybody got to the bottom of what changed around 2005 to cause all this faulures? These engines have been made in one form since 1997 so I wouldn't say it was a design fault.
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Has anybody got to the bottom of what changed around 2005 to cause all this faulures? These engines have been made in one form since 1997 so I wouldn't say it was a design fault.
My thoughts exactly - Surely it's a case of incorrect torquing on assembly.
If the bolts were torqued to say 6nm rather than the correct 8nm, it's feasible that they would slowly loosen over time.
I would assume that all the engines that have suffered broken cams have been reassembled used the same caps and bolts - so nothing has changed from when it left the factory apart from the torque settings.
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>>Surely it's a case of incorrect torquing on assembly.
It's a possibility, but, far from a certainty.
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If it's more than just a torque issue, then the engines that have been repaired will suffer a repeat failure - but only time will tell...
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I'll step through the points one at a time;
>>I had presumed that the friction between the bolt head and the clamped surface was of most significance
It is very important for bolts which qare tightened using only a torque specification, the friction under the head, as well as the friction between the threads is what largely determines how efficiently torque is converted into axial load in the bolt.
Applying torque is really an intermediate - what you're really trying to do is to put the shank of the bolt under tension, and the joint itself under compression.
i.e. it would appear initially that a larger bolt (thus bolt head), tightened to a higher torque would clamp "better" than a smaller bolt head
Where a larger bolt is required is when the maximum tension which the so-called "stress area" of the bolt can withstand is beyond the capability of the bolt. So, in the case of a camshaft, the static and dynamic loads on the camshaft can be estimated using mathematical models [which mathematically aren't massively dissimilar to modelling LCR circuits]. These loads are then divided by the number of bolts, and an initial sizing of the bolts can be begun.
>>but I see that the smaller dia. bolt would be more "compliant" with the joint. However, when you consider the "stress" (I presume that's the correct term) imposed by a rotating camshaft on the camcaps, it seems logical to assume that a higher torque (thus larger dia. bolt) is preferable
The vital thing to ensure in a dynamically loaded joint like a camshaft bearing cap is that the tesnion in the bolt is sufficient to keep the cam bearing cap compressed against the head at all times - or, in other words to ensure that a gap (albeit tiny!) never opens up at the joint interface. Joints with a gasket have a more onerous requirement of the comression must never decrease to a value less than is required to maintain the gasket seal.
>>otherwise loosening of the joint seems more likely due to, say, vibraton.
Usually, well designed joints [say, compliant with a well thought out bolting standard like VDI-2230] will not be subject to loosening. Where there is any relative rotation across the joint, you usually need to specifiy some additonal loacking device [this is usually enshrined in the applicable design codes for whatever type of part you're designing].
However, a bolt does not need to rotate to loosen. If, for example, a bolt has been specified where either the bearing area under the head, or the shear area of the threads is insufficient, the material can fail - remember, failure is only a matter of distortion measured in microns - tiny!
>>I realise this isn't exactly scientific - more of an assumption resulting from handling many types of joint. So is this a flawed assumption?
Oddly, most mechanics aren't taught the mechanics and stress behaviour of bolted joints, so, despite handling thousands of fasteners over their working life, most don't actually know how the joints work.
In which case, why are cylinder head bolts (or studs/nuts) of a larger diameter than, in the Corsa engine case, the camcap bolts when identical alloy is being clamped?
It's because the smaller cam bolts could not cope with the larger dynamic loading of the combustion event without coming close to losing all the compression force holding the gasket, and preventing leakage.
Cylinder head bolts are an interesting case in point. If you look at a really old engine design, you'll find the bolts are ridiculously oversized, especially when you consider how feeble the combustion events in the old engines must have been - think of BHP per litre.
Is the mass of material being clamped a major factor?
Not really - unless it has any significant dynamics which load the joint.
I hope the answers I've given are helpful.
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Thanks, the answers have provided food for thought. Assuming that the Corsa camshaft securing design is correct then, if the materials are sound also, perhaps it is the case that there was some problem in quality of assembly for a particular production run. We may never know.
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Yes, I think the fundamental design and torque specification on the bolts is OK. If it were not, all engines would be giving trouble, not just those made in 2005.
However, there's plenty of potential for slips between the design on paper, and the real object being used; whether it was a material problem or an assembly problem is still not known to us.
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My first post, just adding another similar failure. Two weeks ago our 55 plate Meriva Twinport Life (fully serviced and only 17750 miles) lost power on the motorway. The problem - broken exhaust camshaft and eight exhaust valves bent. Bill nearly £1600.
The Leeds Vauxhall dealer said (a) no the exhaust camshaft shouldn't go on a car of that age/mileage, (b) they had had quite few failed exhaust camshafts in (c) he had no idea why they fail - "just one of those things!"
I have written to Vauxhall asking why the exhaust camshaft failed, whether the new parts have been upgraded and if they would like to make a contribution to the £1600! Not holding my breath but thanks to the wealth of similar experiences found here I am encouraged to keep pushing this. Any advice?
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Any body who has suffered a Snapped Camshaft on a 55 Plate Vauxhall, should refer to our post - pete and ed Thu 1 oct 09 14.03
Pete.
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£1600! Are they going to gold plate the head while it's off?
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Looks like we are the latest victims of a premature camshaft failure in an 05 Vauxhall Corsa sxi. 38, 000 miles
It's a car we bought for our daughter and have owned it for 11 months and have been really pleased with it. However, driving down the motorway last week her engine light came on, it lost power and we got it recovered by the RAC. Took it to a local garage who told us the camshaft had broken in two, and as that should never really happen in the car's lifetime. He suggested getting it to a vauxhall garage and try and get a contribution towards repairs.
I called Vauxhall customer services who said it was out of warranty etc., and they would not contibute, but have given me a case number.
Lookers Vauxhall have the car now, they have replaced the camshaft and it was still misfiring, so now they have had to strip the engine down and change a bent valve, probably also related to camshaft problem. total cost of repairs going to be £1100 on a car that's probably only worth £3000.
Lookers say Vauxhall wont contribute as it's 4.5 years old and has only had one vauxhall service and the other was by an independant garage.
I'm determined not to let this go, having seen all the postings on here. I will definitely try the county court route if I get no joy.
Any helpful information from those of you who have had some recompense will be appreciated. Thanks Bev & Sophie Davenport
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Hi my son is latest victim of camshaft failure. It snapped when he was on motorway. Got towed to my local independent garagre who estimate new engine required, has quoted £2300 for repair with labour. Needs new camsahft, head gasket, 2 cylinders in fact total new engine. Did you get any responses re how seek compensation.
david
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Hello, have you had any luck with this? the same thing happened to me last week and im so angry about it, the bolts came loose causing the cam shaft to snap. I rang vauxhall and they said they wont do anything about it, i really dont want to let this go either.
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My son's 55 plate Corsa 1.2 sxi with 36000 on the clock suffered exactly the same fate, just before Xmas.After being incorrectly diagnosed by a popular roadside recovery organisation which could have avoided the horrendous outcome, we contacted Vauxhall on numerous occasions with no success, due to the expiry of the warranty, service history not being carried out by a main dealer and thirdly my refusal to take it to a main dealer due to the extortionate prices charged by these establishments. I have recently received a letter of closure from Vauxhall after various refusals by them to admit there is any problem with this engine but i intend to pester them a bit more. The damage incurred was snapped camshaft and two bent valves, coupled with new gaskets and a timing tool set which we had to purchase.The total cost of our repair was £600 inc parts (mates rates). My arguement with Vauxhall is the refusal to admit any problem, especially when this site and other forums have highlighted dozens of incidents exactly the same which surely cannot be coincidental.
I feel this needs to be highlighted by one of the consumer type programmes or receives media coverage before more youngsters part with their hard earned/saved money on what was beleived to be a reliable and economical first car, not something that falls to pieces between 12000 to 36000 miles.
Gringo
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Hi there, last week my cam shaft snapped in my 05 corsa, its done 26000 miles and i contacted Vauxhall and they have said they are not going to do anything about it and that its not their fault, they said as i didnt get it fixed by them and i got it fixed by a mechanic also they wont do anything about it. im so angry that this has happened. The bolts came loose on the cam shaft causing it to snap, which apparently should never happen. I no longer feel safe in the car and dont want to let them get away with this. I will never buy a Vauxhall again.
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