As I understand it, in another year's time, I'll be entitled to free public transport throughout Ireland - North and South, long and short distance, road or rail. I'm told that all I will have to do is to state my final destination when I commence the journey.
Now this has to be a generous offer and one which I really do appreciate. You can't make public transport much more accessible than that and it must represent the most favourable situation idealised by the public transport lobby.
I can certainly envisage circumstances where residents would use this service regularly but as long as I can drive and own a car I think I would only use it occasionally into Belfast (12 miles) or maybe take a long trip down to Dublin or further.
Why? Mainly because it's still easier for me to take a car into Belfast to do some business in the centre and wrap up a family visit elsewhere in the city and get back home within 3 hours - quite impossible by public transport. I can't afford to take all day for such a trip and I can't see how conventional public transport would suit me better than my own car.
Surely it is impractical to get people out of their cars on any significant scale. By all means ensure that the cars don't pollute, reward multiple occupancy, even make them smaller. Just don't assume that it is acceptable to try to take away the convenience we enjoy at present.
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TG
Your last paragraph said it all.
Bill
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A good summary.
Let's not knock public transport, it has its place in the scheme of things. It caters well for large volumes going between large centres of population at defined times.
But there must be a place for the private motorist travelling routes where public transport is infrequent or circuitous, outside peak demand times and maybe carrying items which will not conveniently fit onto a bus or train.
Present government/local authority policy has a head-in-sand attitude which refuses to believe that the second category exists.
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If the government genuinely wanted to find out how many people would really travel on public transport then why don't they make it free at the point of use for a week or two as an experiment? If it were free then there is only the aspect of convenience to consider. If the experiment showed that people were just not interested in travelling on public transport if they didn't already then maybe they would stop spending money on forcing people out of their cars.
Teabelly
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>>why don't they make it free at the point of use for a week or two as an experiment?
Interesting thought. From a personal point of view I don't think it would make any difference to me. Most of the expenses involves in running a car are fixed (tax, insurance, depreciation) so each journey only costs me the petrol that it uses. For the sort of journeys that I make this is not a lot and is more than covered by the saving in my personal time through taking the car.
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"Most of the expenses involves in running a car are fixed (tax, insurance, depreciation) so each journey only costs me the petrol that it uses."
That is the crux of the matter. According to a chart on my wall, based on A A figures, fuel only accounts for a quarter of the total running cost and all "marginal" i.e, those which increase with distance travelled (tyres, servicing, etc) for one third of the total, two thirds being depreciation, tax and insurance.
Even road tolls at ten pence per mile would only increase the marginal cost to under one third of the total.
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>make it free for an experiment...
It's a good point. If that were done for a month for buses and rail I wouldn't use either once. Not for getting to Scotland on hols or going into the town four miles away. Public transport (sadly?) doesn't key into any one aspect of life for us.
David W
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It's a good point. If that were done for a month for buses and rail I wouldn't use either once.
It's a shocking fact isn't it! I live in the South East where public transport is as good as anywhere. Yet I can't think of a single journey I do by car now that I would do by public transport if it was free.
If you live in the sticks it's even more of a no brainer.
I travel into central london by train for convinience but even that's easier on the bike if it's dry. And the frequency certainly wouldn't be affected by changing the prices...
The best answer to conjestion for me would be to encourage companies to provide worker housing near their premises. But even this is flawed.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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After 2 weeks holiday, it was back to work today. As I use the bike, it is very noticeable that my journey time takes about 25 minuntes + 10 minutes togging up for 22 miles. Can't beat it. Ipswich council, not exactly known as a car-friendly bunch try different schemes but it only tends to make things worse. The usual bus lanes/Park 'n Ride stuff.
Just to really stoke up the debate, you really notice the lack of school run mums etc, so enjoy it while you can as it will add 15 minutes to my journey by car when they're back on the road. Sticking to the bike me..
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Just to really stoke up the debate, you really notice the lack of school run mums etc, so enjoy it while you can as it will add 15 minutes to my journey by car when they're back on the road.
I keep asking this question but no one seems to have an answer:
Term time congestion might well be caused by school run "mums", but who are they?
Teachers? School admin/non teaching staff? Sixth-formers? College/university lecturers/students. People in (mainly government/local authority?) child friendly jobs who only work in term time or are allowed to start late/finish early in term time so they can drop off and collect their kids?
How many does that add up to?
Before you dismiss the suggestion aren't there something like half a million or a million people employed in each of the civil service, local government, NHS, education. And there must be quite a few people in the private/self employed sectors who can work flexibly.
So how much difference would getting rid of the school run really make in term time?
Oh, yes, and don't forget that most people take their holidays in the school holidays. That must be a few more million cars off the road in the rush hour (if they've got any sense).
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Bogush
You have a very valid point when you say "who are they?
Teachers? School admin/non teaching staff? Sixth-formers? College/university lecturers/students. People in (mainly government/local authority?) child friendly jobs who only work in term time or are allowed to start late/finish early in term time so they can drop off and collect their kids?"
I have wondered the same thing myself.
Add to that number the existing official school runs, i.e. there are some school buses around and also lots of taxis and minibuses picking up and dropping off kids with special needs. (SWMBO organises these as her paid employment, and there are more than you might think).
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Developing on Bogush's question of who are the school runners suggest the following, based on observations locally and elsewhere:-
Mothers worried about their kids being the victims of molesters (or accidents) many of these will drive only a few hundred yards.
Trends for "choice" in school admissions lead to longer distance movement of kids, again parents in these circs may be unwiling to let their little treasures loose on public transport.
The biggest however is that school runners stop. As near to the school as possible and in disregard of parking restrictions, safety and courtesy to other road users. Those who in term time drop the kids off on thier way into work are therefore part of the traffic flow and not an obstruction at the kerbside.
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Or if companies were to provide transport themselves that will pick eveyone up from their doorstep and deposit them at home again after work. If they made it so it was free for those who lived within a certain distance then I can see that taking off for people with jobs that have regular hours. It would be more relaxing and sociable to travel en masse.
There is also the personal safety issue to consider. It is all very well the government telling us to use public transport, walk around after dark but in some places it is not really a good idea so I think that is another reason people use their cars for even short journeys. Make the streets safer after dark perhaps?
Teabelly
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There are two main objections to public transport.
1. The transport.
2. The public.
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No matter how good it is possible to make a public transport system, it can never be as efficient as using your own vehicle. Available on demand 24 hours a day, totally flexible allowing any destination of your choosing by any route you prefer with the ability to instantly change your mind about either.
Public transport has it's place, but it it will always be second choice for the 30 million of us who have driving licences. If only a fraction of the money which polititians throw toward trying to persuade us to get out of our cars were spent on improving the roads, most of the problems we encounter on a daily basis could be solved. In London alone getting rid of bus lanes and traffic jamming measures, plus the re-introduction of two man buses would make a significant difference.
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"In London alone getting rid of bus lanes and traffic jamming measures, plus the re-introduction of two man buses would make a significant difference. "
The bus lane scheme has got to the point of counter-productivity.
The tail-backs on the the parts that it is not possible to bus-lane are now causing as much delay to the buses as the original jams without the bus lanes.
Result-nobody gains except Transport for London from fines from people who get frustrated enough to use the bus lanes.
Red Routes also intrigue me. These are supposed to keep main thoroughfares open but I notice that there are bays where unloading can be done for 20 minutes: fair enough, otherwise the businesses along there would have to close down.
But also in the same place disabled drivers can park for three hours.
Sympathetic as I am to disabled drivers (my daughter was in a wheel chair for two years) but firstly; three hours seems excessive, and secondly; given the level of abuse of disabled badges it is almost a free-for-all.
Consequently red routes are largely a waste of space as the critical areas a obstructed by parked lorries and cars.
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Just to give another side to the discussion. As car drivers, my wife and I commute 15 miles each way by public transport to the centre of Oxford. Doing the sums it works out cheaper, there is a reasonable amount of flexibility in exact timing. By staggering our journeys we manage to drop off and pick up our daughter from nursery by foot before catching the bus/train.
We use the car for the weekly shop, combined trips to the rubbish tip/diy shed/shopping trip and day trips and holidays.
My commute time is dominated by the additional 25 minutes each way during school term time caused by the school run. My solution is not to penalise the bus lanes/commuter traffic but force the use of school buses, this would be a much better population to use the bus since school times are fixed and there would be no need to run the service during the middle of the day or in the evenings.
regards
Ian L.
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Sometimes it seems to me things in Britain progress backwards. When I lived in UK (1960's) I worked for at least two companies where coach transport was provided for staff as part of the deal. Benefits were obvious: widened catchment area to recruit good people, attractiveness as a competitive employer, no hanging round draughty platforms/bus stops, easier to manage time-keeping and shift work, immunity to strikes etc, safety, for starters. Obviously this loaded up payroll bottom line, but presumably the payback in efficiencies and staff quality were worth it. Translate to these days, all of the above plus no parking problems/expense, no hit-and-miss attendance due to trains that don't show up, health and safety.
I'm sure as always sems i UK there are a milion reasons "why" the obvious isn't so obvious in that perennially "glass-is-half-empty" society you've got there.
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Growler
When I worked for Websters brewery in Halifax (from 1988)we had a hired minibus (that had run for donkeys years) that used to do the rounds for all of the shifts and the day workers. Almost anyone could get it if they lived in the Halifax area, it also did a town run so that people could shop at lunch time. By 1992 approx, it had gone due to the "bean counters", they cut off some of the runs at odd times and lo and behold people used it less, so they cut off some more and then less used it. QED? Businessess now don't do buses its not the core business. Human Resources Departments no longer deal in "Personal" issues only in "Personnel" issues because they are not "social services departments" The cost and effort of getting to work is now firmly on employees, as possibly it should be, but the govt still seems to look back at times when companies provided this service rather than making sure that there was an infrastructure in place ready to take over.
By the way no one ever answered a question I made on the old forum; If I have a bus, can I use the bus lane even if as the driver I am the only one on the bus, and how large has the bus got to be????
Bill
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A bus is only a bus if its licensed as a bus.
If you buy a bus privately and tax it as PLG, it isn't a bus for the purpose of bus lanes.
The same way that Prince Philip's taxi isn't a taxi for the purpose of bus lanes.
I don't think you want to go through the hassle of getting an operator's licence and paying the extra road tax cost of a real bus ... all to enable you to use bus lanes.
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It'd probably be much cheaper to hire a personal taxi like Kengestion Livinstone, or go by train and have your limo drive on ahead to pick you up at the other end like 2/3?Jags !;-(
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You would find things alot better (but still not great) on the mainland. NIR railways are in a terrible state, it takes +3hr Belfast to L/derry on the train as opposed to 1hr 40 min on the bus (1Hr 15min in car) from what I can tell its not even NIR's fault as they have not been allowed to invest.
somebody sent this to me not so long ago, it is vaugely on topic:
www.dewinne.freeserve.co.uk/electric.htm
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Can't believe you lot have let this one slip by you in the last few weeks.
Remember the fiasco a few years ago when New Labour had its conference in Blackpool and they all got held up with some problem on the trains? It led to 2 Jags making all sorts of promises and threats what have you about them sorting out transport.
Well they've certainly sorted out the problem for this year.
Laid on three special trains from the Smoke to Blackpool. Access to book tickets is only allowed by having a special code available from Millbank House.
All animals are equal, just some are more equal than others it appears.
Now wouldn't it be a hoot if we could get hold of this number and book all the seats on the train?
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All animals are equal, just some are more equal than others it appears.
Reptiles for instance?
Now wouldn't it be a hoot if we could get hold of this number and book all the seats on the train?
Yes it would. How many standard rail services are to be affected by this? Will commuters have to cope with less rolling stock?
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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And if we can't book all the tickets it would be a better hoot for some bod in railtrack to set it up so the conference specials are on some duff local train to Hemel Hempstead or similar, then onto a bus for about 20 miles then onto the trains special, only for them to get on an all the bacon rolls have been sold, the closets not working etc etc.
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>> All animals are equal, just some are more equal than others >> it appears. Reptiles for instance?
Not to mention amphibians ;-)
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Can't believe you lot have let this one slip by you in the last few weeks.
Laid on three special trains from the Smoke to Blackpool. Access to book tickets is only allowed by having a special code available from Millbank House. All animals are equal, just some are more equal than others it appears.
For chrissakes!!. These are charter trains, happens all the time, like hiring a bus. Because of the scandalous weekend closures of the direct route to Blackpool they will probably go from Paddington but let's not pretend it's some kind of shock horror privilege story.
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Oh Simon,
Its not the chartering, its the fact that unlike the plebs who pay for the international disgrace known as the UK rail system who will have to take the bus, its the apparent sleaze of the party of government organising a direct link without having to detrain. Labour are too closely involved in the Railtrack fiasco to indulge in "weare better than the tax payer behaviour". Given that Labour have come clean about owing £10.5million today I wonder how thay can afford to charter a train over tracks that are being "upgraded"?
I suppose they dont want to share the experience of travelling in the UK "normally".
Although to give this government is due, it really is trying to implement Animal Farm as a consistent system of government for all. It just shows up in the transport system more than elsewhere.
Have a nice awayday,
Vercin
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For chrissakes! Is it too much to expect the party in power, a party which has admitted that it has a number of problems in the transport agenda, and is repeatedly accused of being out of touch, to ask its delegates to have a real world travelling experience on the way to the conference and then have a valid debate on what they are going to do about the mess we are all in.
It appears it is too much to ask, and they have bottled it! Or else the spin doctors did not think of the possible publicity to be gained from debating a subject after having got in touch with the problem first hand. Perhaps the thought of 2 Jags pontificating again after another fiasco was just too much.
Mind you I did hear Joe Ashton(?) on BBC4 this a.m. calling Madame Cherie working class. Bet that touched a nerve in No10!!
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One of my major concerns about public transport is the cost, especially on shorter journeys. I live in the Bracknell area (near Reading). To catch the bus to work costs me £2.75 (return), and its an 8 mile round trip. To use my own car costs about 80 pence (in petrol alone, granted). I can't see how the fares are justified.
Another gripe is that different modes of public transport don't seem to synchronise. How often do you catch a bus, and arrive at the railway station just in time to watch your train moving off down the tracks (or vise versa)?
The only motivation I have to use public transport is congestion.
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Taxis seem to me, at least in theory, to have a lot of the merits of both public transport and private cars.
Just as an alternative starting point, what about totally abolishing all public transport in towns, and substituting a subsidised (electric ?) taxi service?
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Manila has the most ghastly traffic conditions you can only comprehend if you've been there. One thing that does work is the air-conditioned vans - 8 seater, they ply selected routes, stop anywhere you want (especially in the middle of the road when I'm approaching at 80 kph!) and have a set fare, very cheap. Modest size, not like buses, private enterprise (i.e. it WORKS and there is no tax bite), take up min. road space and are so numerous a 2-3 min. wait is the max.
I won't dwell on the opportunities these create for rubbing thighs with gorgeous young ladies as well......
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