They never did the 90 bhp version in the Fabia- that only had the original 75 bhp version, the 90 bhp version was only in the Audi A2.
I've got the 80bhp EU4 version in my 2007 SEAT Ibiza and love it. Yes, its noisy when cold but when warm its sounds like all the other VAG diesels- a bit thrummy, but liveable with. It also pulls much better than a 1.4 td has the right to when the turbo spools up, although I will admit I have been caught out pulling out from junctions at low revs when its as flat as a pancake at less than 2000 rpm. When it hits peak torque at 2200rpm it really flies though, and is apt to spin its wheels in second.
In reply to 659FBE I don't find it nasty to live with one bit- I've seen 62 mpg on a run and its still on less than 4000 miles so not run in yet. Average driving is about 50 mpg, and I drive quite enthusiastically. Its a surprisingly revvy and smooth engine but thats probably due to the balancer shaft, and sounds quite good when given a bit of welly.
AFAIK its a reliable engine if serviced with the correct PD oil, although I will say that mine smokes like a trooper even when driven normally, but I think the PD engines as a whole smoke a bit more than other CR diesels so I'm not worried.
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Many 4 cylinder engines have balancer shafts, to deal with some of the rocking couples! SFAIR the A2 I've driven was quite perky, and as Ibiza says, sounded quite good, in fact sporty at higher revs. Acquaintance actually bought an A2 (I was was doubtful re Audi dealers) and was highly pleased with the fuel economy: it seemed quite refined as a passenger too. So, not such a gimmick, IMHO.
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No long-term experience, I'm afraid, but I once had an A2 1.4TDI as a loan car for a day. I thought the engine was good: fine characteristics that suited the A2 and sounded terrific. I wanted one! I've not heard/read of any longevity issues.
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Many 4 cylinder engines have balancer shafts, to deal with some of the rocking couples!
Really?, Rocking Couples?
Number_Cruncher
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>>less than enthusiastic about the balance of a 4 stroke 3. A 2 stroke would be a different matter though....
What's the difference, in terms of balance?
Number_Cruncher
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According to this: www.fordscorpio.co.uk/tech2_3_1.htm the 3 cylinder engine design has better primary and secondary balance than the inline 4, which requires a balance mechanism to eliminate vibration. It takes a few hp (about 4 or 5 IIRC) to drive too!
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I had an A2 1.4 TDi 75PS for nearly 50,000 miles. Never missed a beat. It had typical PD power delivery of lots of power then nothing, but master the gear changes and it bowled along. Mid 40s mpg round town and well over 50 on a run. The A2 only weighed just over a tonne so this will have helped. Servicing was every 25,000 miles or so too. I have driven a Fiesta 1.4 TDCi and this has no punch whatsoever.
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Yes, the Ford Scorpio website doesn't do a bad job of explaining what's going on.
I raised an eyebrow at your earlier post when you said rocking couples. An inline 4 has out of balance secondary forces - all the moments, or couples are balanced. The primary forces are also fully balanced.
That an inline four has no out of balance moments can be seen by imagining the engine to be split between cylinders 2 and 3. Ahead and behind the split, each engine half is a mirror image of the other. i.e., 1 moves as 4, and 2 moves as 3.
Applying this logic to a 3 cylinder engine, whether 2 or 4 stroke imediately shows us that 1 accelerates up as 3 accelerates down. This produces an out of balance moment which tends to pitch the front of the engine up down, while pitching the flywheel end in the opposte direction. In fact, a 3 cylinder engine has both primary and secondary moment imbalance.
But, bolt 2 3 cylinder engines together, and you can cancel these moments, obtaining the fully balanced inline 6.
In comparing a 3 with a 4, firing interval is also different. 180 degrees in the 4, and 240 in the 4 stroke 3. To sound at all similar at idle, a 3 cylinder must do 240/180, i.e. 4/3 times the speed of the 4 cylinder engine.
Number_Cruncher
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For non-technical people, it's as rough as an old dog. Basically there are better small diesels than this.
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I'm sorry but the mpg figures quoted above - 40 around town to 60 on a run are pathetic... for a so called economy engine.
My Yaris 4 cylinder diesel averages 58mpg... about 55 around town and 62-65 on long runs (which it rarely gets)...
and it is quieter and nicer to drive...
madf
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What's the advantage of having a three cylinder engine?
Most engines are built by robots these days so they'd cost about the same to produce as a four cylinder.
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What's the advantage of having a three cylinder engine?
It might be lighter, but it will definitely have less internal friction, which means it will be better for economy. It will also be cheaper - there's one cylinder less, and one less expensive injector.
Despite them being less refined than inline fours, I think we will see more of them in the future - especially for cheap city cars. After all, saying that they are nasty is only a relative thing - I'm sure we would all like to breeze round to the Post Office in a V16!
Number_Cruncher
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Thanks all.
Just been perusing a Skoda Roomster catalogue and noted the 3 cylinder diesel engine had much better claimed mpg than the 1.9 PD. Quite taken with this quirky vehicle and looked great as an all rounder. My old non turbo PD Golf 75 hp would not do more than 60mph up the A6 Taddington bypass but I hope the torquier 3 cylinder turbo diesel would do better.
However the Passat has only 104,000 -barely run in so will have to dream about swapping.
R8 dreams that is.
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Just testing re rocking couples! However, I've read the imbalances in a 3 can be reduced by using a balancer shaft, but in this case it only requires 1, rather than the two that a 4 cylinder IL engine needs. Can't say that I found the A2 rough, but perhaps its a matter of sound insulation in the Polo, where it does seem loud outside?
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I'm sorry but the mpg figures quoted above - 40 around town to 60 on a run are pathetic... for a so called economy engine.
My Yaris 4 cylinder diesel averages 58mpg... about 55 around town and 62-65 on long runs (which it rarely gets)...
and it is quieter and nicer to drive...
I agree they may be nicer to drive but the consumption is supposed to be under 3litres per 100km which is a good deal more than 65 mpg
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>>Just testing re rocking couples!
Ah, good good!!
>>I've read the imbalances in a 3 can be reduced by using a balancer shaft, but in this case it only requires 1
Yes, as some of the out of balance moments are primary, i.e., one cycle per crank revolution, you can deliberately off-balane the crank, and then fit a counter rotating balance shaft. Then, the crank and balancer shaft can act together to provide a balancing pitching moment in the plane of the cylinders, but, cancel out their action at right angles to the cylinder plane.
For the inline 4, you need 2 shafts, because it's a secondary force, i.e., twice per rev, and so, you can't use the crank as one of your balance shafts, you have to fit two mutually counter rotating shafts, running at twice crank speed.
Number_Cruncher
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I seem to remember that the three-cylinder two-strokes used by Saab and DKW were very smooth and ran to high rpm producing usable rally power for those days. They never sounded remotely rough. And 120 degrees is a nice round number, the geometry of a straight six crankshaft surely?
I read a piece years ago, by Setright I think, on the great volumetric efficiency of a 300-400cc cylinder with some particular bore/stroke ratio. He said that this efficiency and economy was the reason why someone or other had made a three cylinder engine.
I have to say I love the idea myself. I like all automotive oddities.
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Indeed tc. I think they rallied them too. But not so successfully, and later I seem to remember...
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I haven't tried the VAG TDi but I have had a go with the Mitsubishi Colt 3 cylinder petrol and that wasn't at all rough. It made a very pleasant sound - with more than a hint of V6. It did have a very high idling speed though. I'm also quite fond of the Triumph 3 cylinder engine - that makes a fabulous noise. Maybe the "bag of nails" noise is just a result of a shared heritage with other VAG PD engines.
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There's a nice video of a howling Saab 96 2-stroke at:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXVRdSbKDT8
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Ah - memories! I once had a SAAB 96 Monte Carlo. For its day it was a fantastic car. Great to drive, cornered on rails and had a freewheel, so gear changes (column type) were interesting. Only real downside was its thirst - around 22 mpg on petriol.
--
Roger. (Costa del Sol, España)
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"Triumph 3 cylinder engine"
Do you mean the 900 or the bonkers 2.3 litre? They both sound nice, though.
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"volumetric efficiency of a 300-400cc cylinder"
IIRC, that was first proposed by Ricardo. 3-cylinder 2-strokes also appeared in various Suzukis and Kawasakis (and of course the Wartburg, as mentioned by Tunacat) and were universally smooth and good sounding. My Wartburg Estate was an excellent car - very spacious and durable, and a doddle to work on.
I also recall that Saab tried bolting two of their engines together to make an inline six, which they shoehorned into a 96 rally car. Who knows what that went (or sounded) like!
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Last week my wife and I toured the French Alps. We hired a car at Nimes airport, it was a 1.4 diesel Seat Ibiza.
I thought it was noisy and gutless at first, but on the second day when I got used to it, I really liked it. We did 1700km up and down the most fantastic roads and scenery that you could ever wish to see.
The 1.4 TDI did about 60mpg, this was going quite fast up hill and down mountain. I was very pleasantly surprised how good this car and engine was.
PS Just south of Briancon on the Col d' Izoard there was some sort of rally, all British cars, old Aston Martins, Ferraries, Lamborginies etc. They were having a whale of a time roaring around the hairpins. Does anyone know who they were?
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I'd imagine an engine like VW's 1.4 TDI 3 cylinder would be well suited to use in a hybrid that works on the Toyota Prius principle. The engine would work at its optimum speed to generate electricity when needed, irrespective of roadspeed, and there would be no mechanical transmission system to transmit labouring vibration at low-speed engine speeds caused by the lower number of power impulses per revolution (1.5 instead of 2) than on a 4 cylinder.
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I think it might be suited, but the Prius can be driven either through the electric motors, or the ICE, or both. It seems quite complex. See the article here: www.ecrostech.com/prius/original/PriusFrames.htm and the follow-up "http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/original/PriusFrames.htm "Whats going on as I drive my Prius" Quite a lot of the time the engine spins at 1300rpm: could be a bit trembly at that speed?
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Are three cyliner engines the same as a four-cyliner with one less cylinder, or do they have some strange shaped crank to make them run smother?
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120 degree cranks, usually, although the original Laverda Jota (bike) was as you describe, and not quite as smooth as it might have been! This was deliberate, however, as 'flat' crankshafts are stiffer, apparently.
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Thought so - I had a Metro that only ran on three cylinders for the last month that I owned it, I couldn't see anyone buying a new car that ran as rough as that.
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Perkins did a 3-cylinder diesel many years ago. It was a popular conversion for TVO tractors before diesel versions became standard. Also available in the series I LandRover instead of the normal 4-cylinder petrol.
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>>>Perkins did a 3-cylinder diesel many years ago.
Massey Ferguson 35 and 135 tractors had Perkins 3 cylinder engines in for many years. Thousands of them were sold, they were a very good tractor. My dad had one FRB65C.
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>>as 'flat' crankshafts are stiffer, apparently.
This is seen in V8 engines too. To give the smoothest running, you need to use a 2 plane crankshaft, but for best strength and stiffness, a flat crank is used on racing V8s.
Number_Cruncher
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Another thing that makes crankshafts stiff is shortness. Another reason why 3 cylinder engines should be a good idea.
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