I believe the C&F road is so heavily policed that deaths have fallen.
As far as bikers are concerned, (and we have had this debate before)... if they want to kill themselves could they please do it where they can't kill others. But they don't so I must assume Darwin was right...
madf
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These roads are not lethal, as already discussed it is the standard of driving (or lack of) that is the problem. There are roads in the highlands that are far more 'risky' than all these added together. Anyone that has driven the 'pass of the cattle' single tack road to Applecross Bay in the highlands will understand. Which rises to 2053ft above sea level and where the driver has to handle very sharp blind corners while going up a 1 in 20 incline. One driving error and there are drops of over 200 feet in areas without crash barriers. It goes to show that the standard of driving in these areas of the so called 10 lethal roads is way below par.
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Interesting logic.
So why are there less crashes on the road next door then, if that's what it is down to?
What about if a tourist crashes on this road? Is that still down to the bad driving of the people from that area?
Tosh. In a way you're correct that the roads aren't intrinsically dangerous (in that it requires someone making a mistake on it to have the accident), but clearly there's something which makes more accidents happen between Bosley and Buxton than between Congleton and Bosley, on exactly the same route.
Here's the true reasons for the ones around Buxton in my opinion. And I'm afraid to say the number 2 is by far the largest of them.
1) weather. It can be brutal up there, and the fog can be so thick you can't see past the bonnet. I'd be surprised if this is to blame for many
2) Bikers. The daft sort. These roads are absolutely adored by bikers, because they're such lovely driving roads. Unfortunately plenty of people are idiots, and you get some right plebs up there, the sort who shouldn't be allowed on a bike with stabilisers fitted. True of car drivers up there too, but it really is thought of as a bikers heaven, so you get hundreds of 'em.
3) Surroundings. If you do come off, the chances are you're going to hit something hard, or possibly drop a long way.
As for your highlands comparison. If a road looks dangerous, narrow and be-cliffed all the way along is it in fact more dangerous than a road which looks open, but has the odd sudden blind bend, or bend which looks gentle, but tightens throughout? Or for that matter looks lovely and inviting and doesn't seem to have any police presence when you've just finished squeezing your middle-age spread into your leathers and got on your over-powered bike?
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There is a little bit of information on the 10 roads in question on the BBC website
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236636.stm
50% of fatal/serious collisions on the A54 between Congleton and Buxton were head-on collisions which suggests that it could be overtaking on this road that is the cause of the problems.
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>BazzaBear
I suspect 2 but until wehave staistics we are surmising.
But I surmise about 30% of the bikers I have met on those two roads to Buxton have been brain donors.
madf
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>50% of fatal/serious collisions on the A54 between Congleton and Buxton were head-on collisions which suggests that it could be overtaking on this road that is the cause of the problems.
Or, to borrow the logic of certain speed camera threads, that leaves 50% that aren't due to overtaking, so let's forget about it.
};---)
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Accidents generally happen with speed and poor co-ordination plus 'red-mist' as the publication Roadcraft states when it gives over a page detailing 'red-mist'. Accidents do not just happen, the A54 linking Cheshire and Derbyshire is not a hard drive. As I have said many times before all drivers should need an IAM test pass or similar in order to drive in this country. I fear that 'red-mist' is perhaps the largest factor in these cases maybe not with the bikers but with the car drivers. The standard of driving in general in areas like the North West of England is very agressive and short sighted.
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Give over.
Once again, if the roads are utterly irrelevant as you claim, and these statistics are entirely down to how terrible all the drivers in the North West are, why aren't the statistics for the A34 to Manchester, or any other NSL road in the area the same?
It's because you're talking guff, that's why.
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>>It's because you're talking guff, that's why
A typical uneducated comment from a driver in denial. The North West has the largest amount of uninsured drivers in the UK (Gorton in Manchester to be exact). Any road that is slightly taxing seems to be to much for the people of the North West to handle. I would suggest that you read Roadcraft BazzaBear as you never know you might learn something at least you may get rid of the 'red mist' syndrome.
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" The standard of driving in general in areas like the North West of England is very agressive and short sighted. "
"A typical uneducated comment from a driver in denial"
" Any road that is slightly taxing seems to be to much for the people of the North West to handle"
Nice to view thw world with such certain knowledge you are right:-)
madf
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Right. I'm an uneducated driver in denial, who clearly drives badly and suffers from 'red mist' because I live in the North West.
Or perhaps you're throwing out 'facts' with no evidence or even crebidle background information, equating a very small run-down area of a large city with an entire huge section of the country, and generally using small specifics to prove huge generalisations, and huge generalisations to talk about small specifics - both of which are ridiculous mis-uses of statistics. Or would be if you'd even managed to get as far as a statistic.
here's a statistic for you to look for to back up your so educated claims:
Can you find out for us how many uninsured drivers from Gorton are amongst those killed on the road from Congleton to Buxton?
To the mods: I admit to having used sarcasm in the making of this post. I apologise. I believe I have not been in any way abusive though, so hopefully it's OK. It's kind of hard not to respond when someone with no understanding of the nature and use of statistics declares that I'm from the North West and therefore must be a terrible driver.
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"The standard of driving in general in areas like the North West of England"
What exactly do you mean by that? Areas "like" the Northwest? FYI, Gorton in Manchester is a very very small part of a large area. It may well have the largest percentage of uninsured drivers blah blah blah but that doesn't mean the Northwest is populated by flat cap wearing pink fluffy dice who all drive around like lunatics. I live there, in what you would probably call a "nice" area, and I can assure you it's not the case.
I have no objection to a comment like "I think the standard of driving in Sandbach is bad" but a comment like "areas like... x,y,z" is snobby and misguided. As Bazzabear says how come other roads in the area don't come into this category if your "theory" is true?
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Keep it civilised guys - PU Mod.
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I didn't realise that the term I used was that bad... sorry PU!!! Wasn't trying to be lairy. : )
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Stuart,
Sorry my post should have slotted in above yours, for some reason it came out below !
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>>I have no objection to a comment like "I think the standard of driving in Sandbach is bad" but >>a comment like "areas like... x,y,z" is snobby and misguided. As Bazzabear says how come >>other roads in the area don't come into this category if your "theory" is true?
There are a number of different ways to look at the issue, the fact remains accidents do not just happen. They occur by not matching road conditions with the driving style and the addition of 'red mist' makes the situation lethal. Roads such as the A54 are not very difficult to drive but they demand a much higher level of concentration, self discipline and discretion than say the A34 for example which is full of roundabouts and speed cameras. As soon as get to the national limit on the A34 you have a roundabout to negotiate!
It really is all down to education and mental attitude to driving as well as driving ability. It is such a shame that people have to die to realise what driving discipline is all about, when of course it is much to late. When will we ever learn?
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>>Any road that is slightly taxing seems to be to much for the people of the North West to handle.<<
Carl, you're absolutely right and I think it's best if you keep well away.
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>>Carl, you're absolutely right and I think it's best if you keep well away.
Could not agree more, I do not want to lose my 14 years no claims bonus, as I have said before 'drivers in denial under the control of red mist'.
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Being mindful of PU's comments, I am biting my lip.
What is your problem with the Northwest? Where is the fantastic centre of superb driving at all times in which you reside? Are you merely being inflammatory or do you actually have a point to make?
Nsar, I liked your comment by the way! : )
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Doh come on guys, Its a well know fact that once past luton on the m1, the locals can only cope with horses and carts. Why we ever gave them cars is beyond me.
Still - dont want to inflame the situation.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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What are these "cars" of which you speak? Is there some sort of horseless carriage contraption available?
'Tis the devil's work I tell you. It'll never catch on.
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"Doh come on guys, Its a well know fact that once past luton on the m1, the locals can only cope with horses and carts. Why we ever gave them cars is beyond me."
Which explains why all UK car manufacturers were based in London:-)
madf
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once past luton on the m1 the locals can only cope with horses
Is there anything except water past Luton on the M1? Well, blow me down. I thought that's as far as it went.
By the way, what is a 'horse'?
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Its a well know fact that once past luton on the m1 the locals can only cope with horses and carts.
You weren't specific but I assume you mean whilst travelling south.
--
L\'escargot.
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L'Escargot, I think the evidence is too abundant for there to be any doubt....
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the A34 for example which is full of roundabouts and speed cameras. As soon as get to the national limit on the A34 you have a roundabout to negotiate!
Not the bit of A34 I was thinking about. The bit I was thinking about (between Congleton and Alderley Edge) is of a reasonably similar style to the dangerous roads being talked about. The main difference is that the A34 isn't a traditional haunt for bikers to go and get their jollies on.
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"The bit I was thinking about (between Congleton and Alderley Edge) is of a reasonably similar style to the dangerous roads being talked about. The main difference is that the A34 isn't a traditional haunt for bikers to go and get their jollies on."
I tend to agree with that. Few if any speed cameras etc.. but you must remember that Carl was genralising - sweeping statements on everything so to take anything he posted as true for everything is like believing that Gordon Brown is not going to use spin...
i.e. "North West drivers are carp" is the essence of what he with years of IAM experience and only 14 years no claims bonus said..:-)
madf
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The next time I am sat in a jam on the A54 due to a member of the ever expanding and badly disciplined 'red mist' clan having a fatal accident I will recall this thread. Then again at least when they perform blind overtaking maneuvers on corners they will of course have been in the right (at least in their own mind). It is not just incompetence and poor driving that kills but poor attitudes that kill. Remember roads are not dangerous - it is people that are. My sympathy goes out to the drivers that find vehicles the wrong side of the road heading straight for them, it is a tragedy
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My sympathy goes out to the drivers that find vehicles the wrong side of the road heading straight for them it is a tragedy
Amen. It's everyone's nightmare.
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Clearly someone overtaking on a blind corner, or across a white line, is being an utter idiot. No one is arguing that point.
I don't think it follows that they're from the North West though.
What do you think when you see someone elsewhere driving stupidly? "Oh, must be on a day trip from Cheshire"?
BTW I think you're 'overdoing' it with the 'red mist' 'thing'. I can almost see you 'wiggling' your fingers ;)
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Amen indeed.... but on ALL roads! I hope you're actually from the area you're so at pains to have a go at, Carl. You still haven't answered any of the questions I have asked you, so I can only assume you are trying to wind me (and Bazzabear) up. Either that or you don't travel much, so you DO live in the NW and you've convinced yourself the A54 is the root of all evil.
Get yourself to Romania, you'd get yourself worked up into a right hissy fit there I can assure you. Your finger-waggling would be at full-pelt!! : )
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PS: "Then again at least when they perform blind overtaking maneuvers on corners they will of course have been in the right (at least in their own mind)"
Er... please tell me who on here has actually advocated such maneouvres (as opposed to maneuvers) as I have read it through and I can't see it.
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I see that it is in the national newspapers today that the North West has the highest risk of insurance claims. It really does not paint a very nice picture of the standard of driving in this region.
To conclude the North West excels in:
Having the highest number of non uninsured drivers in the UK
The highest risk of making an insurance claim in the UK
The most dangerous roads
I feel it really does say a great deal about the standard of driving and attitudes. Almost daily there is a serious accident on the M6 in Cheshire. Which is an extremely straight and easy to negotiate carriageway. The figures and facts speak for themselves.
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A1 north of Leeds, all the way to Edinburgh
Should be a motorway, needs to be a motorway, everyone drives like its a motorway, but it has little side turns from which tractors pull in front of cars doing a ton
Really Really should be upgraded as a national priority
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I've come into this one a bit late but has anyone cross referenced the number of accidents with the number of users? ie more traffic = more accidents.
Judging by the skid marks there was a big one on the M90 the other day - flat, straight stretch of modern motorway, skid marks from lane1 to badly bent central barrier and back to hard shoulder again - didn't see it but probably that most dangerous of conditions - a human driver.
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"but has anyone cross referenced the number of accidents with the number of users? ie more traffic = more accidents."
The Leek-Buxton and Congleton- Buxton roads - in the top 10 - must be some of the least travlled roads in the North West. On weekdays 1 car every 1km is a lot.
madf
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re "There are no lethal roads - only drivers"
this is of course nonsense
one of the biggest problems with the road safety industry in the UK is that it pushes all the blame onto the driver
mass spend on adverts telling us lies such as "speed kills", are about as much use as adverts saying "a half ton of metal at 70 mph crashing into you kills"
road design goes through fashions
current fashions in road designs are led by needing to please the political chattering classes, and their perceptions about what needs doing, not by any real science
this leads to bumps, road thinning, windy roads where once they were straight, obstacles put in the way just to slow down the traffic
but it also leads to nonsense such as flower pots blocking your vision at junctions
and misleading signs, or inappropriate use of too many signs making it impossible to take the one or two most important messages from the signs
there is a video on the bbc website at the moment of a railway bridge which is being hit by drivers on average every two weeks, and they are blaming the drivers! i really think they should get out and look at the signs, road layout, typical routes taken by different classes of vehicle etc etc as I am sure there is more to it than driver error
there are a few "road designers" lets call them, working for the engineering consultancies who the councils subcontract, who to my knowledge have put in time and time again obviously dangerous road junctions, where for instance many motorcyclists have been killed, and yet there is no check and balance in the system to critically review these road designs or to bring these road designers to task for their errors, it is always the driver who gets hammered
badly designed roads are as bad a lion trap, if they fool the senses, and lead to a large majority of drivers misjudging the road then avenues other than blaming the drivers need to be looked at
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>>this is of course nonsense
There is such a term as speed sense, you should be able to stop in the limit point (distance) that you can see to be safe. You should never be driving 'blind' from a visual perspective. You make some good points about road design. We seem to have a nanny state government that want to slow down driving which is not acceptable. However the standard of driving generally in this country is below par to what it should be. The UK having highest number of mental health related issues in the developed world does not help from an attitude perspective.
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re "you should be able to stop in the limit point (distance) that you can see to be safe" simplistically yes, but if someone cuts into your lane or whatever it becomes a whole lot more complex
the proof is in the pudding, and look around at other nations and you can see many doing much better at casulty reduction on their roads, and while still keeping the roads wide enough for an ambulance to get past etc, and without criminalising the masses with points for ever so minor speeding
re "highest number of mental health related issues" yea well we have got the worst health industry in any developed country so its hardly surprising, how the shambles provided by the nhs is allowed to continue escapes me
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