As a previous poster has mentioned Peugeot HDi engines (yes, it's what I have, if you're wondering) I would be interested in hearing if any Back-Roomer has had any experience of problems resulting from mis-fuelling in this type of engine.
My general view is that the HDi is a pretty robust and reliable design; over the last few years (on behalf of various family members) I have bought three cars with the engine, all second-hand, with up to 60,000 miles each on the clock and have had no engine problems whatsoever, though all have now covered a substantial further mileage. I do realise this is a pretty small sample, however.
It would be interesting to know, that's all.
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I tend to agree with oilrag although there are a lot of people on this forum that will continue to buy CR's especially if they have a VW badge on the front - and in fairness - good luck to em.
But generally I believe we have a car market in this country that is very different to most other countries.
From driving around in europe alot you do see alot of German cars in Germany and French cars in France etc. So they tend to be loyal to their own brands.
The US are very much more focused on reliability & service (and value for money) so Jap cars are very popular.
In this country I think we are usually driven by badge value or a snob culture. Plus we do have alot of company cars. (Which I think is driving the longer service intervals on cars). This is obviously not true in all cases but I would argue that this is true for the vast majority of car buyers.
So to get to the point I do not think it will affect residuals much as quality & reliability are not usually that high on people's criteria fro buying a car in the UK.
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And talking about company cars being misfueled.
www.simong.org/index.php?p=902
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"there are a lot of people on this forum that will continue to buy CR's especially if they have a VW badge on the front"
VWs don't use CR, so no probs in that department!
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All this slagging off of CR just wants me to say " DONT PANIC" for gods sake yes there are electronic probs with CR That with time will be solved sure there some expensive items that can render a new car worthless.
Oh and just to prove myself a totaly boring old man {edit by DD} there is nothing new about CR except the electronics we now have to sort out the emissions
Although I look at the motor trade as a outsider in answer to the original question no i don't think that CR will make much difference to residuals
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Err the main issue is diesel pumps in big 4 figures & these are new technology not old! The new pumps run at very high pressures very much higher than old systems. The electronic issues are actually not that bad.
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I wouldn't have one. Being turboed is bad enough but the stress that these units are under is just too much. Give me a stable petrol engine any day -- at least they tend to fail gracefully, not just blow one day without much warning.
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Does anyone have any statistics of reliability of petrol verses CR and the type and expense of the problems encountered ? Maybe they may help of providing some background in this assessment.
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The big leasing companies like Lex will have reliable figures but they will not release them for public consumption.
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Are VAG Pump Düse systems considered to be more reliable/less fragile/ cheaper to repair than CR technology?
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I like the PSA HDIs, as I find them smooth and quiet, with more than adequate performance. However, I do worry about the compelexity of them in general and certain specific features. The particulate filter has not turned out to be such an expensive item as I feared it would but it will still be an expensive item on these cars, when the cars are only worth a few hundred pounds in a few years time.
I have also experienced a frustrating period, during which an engine management fault proved very difficult to find, and the car kept defaulting to limp home mode for about a month. In the end it was an inexpensive split in a small piece of pipe but I was very ready to get rid of the car, as it was virtually unusable at the time.
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Nearly all of these CR Diesels are nice to drive etc when they are running properly, the problem is that there have been a fair number of problems with them. There are something like 20+ variants of the PSA HDi system (no kidding) as they change components and introduce modifications to overcome running problems. The quality of the installations is not great and the technicians struggle to deal with more complex faults.
I would have no qualms about running one under warranty (or as a co car) but I would not purchase one out of warranty. The combination of a highly complex fuel system, turbo, expensive parts and limited technical knowledge amongst technicians puts me off. In particular it seems that a failure in any part of the fuel system (pump, injects etc) results in a consequential damage which requires a complete fuel system renewal.
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Although my CR diesel (Renault dCi) has been faultless in its first 24K, I do worry about the immense technology now used on these latest diesels. Although it's a great drive, I shall probably go back to petrol next time as I only do about 9K a year anyway. I am looking tat the 165 GT at the moment...
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If you look at the common CR problems, it's from manufacturers who have generic quality control issues. Mainly Mercedes and Ford (whose technology is ex PSA and therefore their - Fords- dealer network has no pool of technical history from the past.).
As for the French, well consistent quality control - as practised by the Japanese - is an alien concept. See the Renault diesel fiasco, and PSA electrical quality issues (keyfobs included).
Buy Japanese CR is my advice.You can certainly rely on Toyota to solve any post warranty design issues.
You cannot rely on Ford or PSA: so why buy their cars?
I suspect in 10 years time more of the majors will no longer exist as corporate entities as financial pressures (new technologies, new models, fuel consumption, recycling emissions etc) plus quality issues will render many of them increasingly unviable.
Of course there will always be customers who don't DEMAND 100% reliability and so will be content with 2nd best. After all Rover sold to them for at least 20 years .. but even the most ardent supporters die or give up eventually.
Imo the issue is not technology but manufacturing quality issues.. such as using cheap components and carp designs which are prone to failure...plus the unwillingness of manufacturers to give customers a proper infield service backup.
madf
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>You cannot rely on Ford or PSA: so why buy their cars?
Between them Ford and PSA must control at least 70% of the light van market in Europe. Almost all the diesels sold in the last 5 years are common rail. Collectively these engines have covered many, many millions of miles under tough conditions in a market where total reliability is an absolute must. So I say you are talking a load of shoemakers.
The fact is that all modern engines, petrol and diesel, are generating more power per litre than ever before, they all use "complex" electronics, and they are all engineeredand built to a budget. There are plenty of things on a modern car regardless of the fuel type that might cost £1000 to fix. In many cases a major service at a dealership will cost half that. In some cases four new tyres will set you back that much.
In the 1920s and 1930s the hauliers and bus operators worried about the reliability and cost of running diesel engines to the extent that there were articles about it in the Times. 'twas ever thus.
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It's not only CR fuel pumps that are eye wateringly expensive so are so called 'old technology' DI fuel pumps. Depending on car, they can cost between £1k-£1.5k.
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there is nothing new about CR except the electronics we now have to sort out the emissions
Do you actually know the first thing about CR diesels?
It's fairly new technology - whacking fuel into a rail across the engine at pressures up to 2000 bar is pretty high-tech stuff, compared to a mechanical belt-driven low-pressure pump which controlled all the injector timing, and was hooked up rather crudely to the engine block by means of metal tubing. CR Only appeared in cars in 1998-ish. The CO2 emissions are much lower than conventional diesels and because the fuel injection consists of several "squirts" per cycle (hence "multijet"), they run more smoothly and cleanly than old diesels. That's why they became popular.
But, they're built to a price - if every manufacturer used the highest-quality components we'd be paying a fortune for diesels that didn't break. It's much easier to sell a cheaper car that'll last a few years beyond warranty, and then present its owner with a bill for £X grand. Before the system finally dies, the CR owner can expect to replace a few MAF sensors, and the odd EGR valve (couple hundred quid a time). Almost makes me want a normally-aspirated Pug XUD engine to play with, preferably one with 300k on the clock, and plenty of life left!
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>> there is nothing new about CR except >> the electronics we now have to sort out the emissions Do you actually know the first thing about CR diesels?
YES I DO! worked with LARGE & SMALL diesel plant for 30 years
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Salaam aleikum mm, and you sound as if you need a bit of salaam... What people seem to be saying is that CR works well if well designed, machined, put together and (perhaps most importantly) treated and maintained, less well when beancounters rule. Same as all other machines actually!
Hope the new gig's going well and the V8s continue to amuse.
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This argument seems to crop up regularly without a great deal of evidence that CRs are prone to early failure and big bills. - yes, the odd one gets mentioned on here but that is hardly proof of a common problem (oh, and yes, I do respect Aprilia's views on this and the expense IF they go wrong). It always reminds me of when I came to replace my original 1983 BX with a normally aspirated engine after it had done 170k faultless (engine) miles except for a new set of glowplugs. I was warned off a turbo replacement because "turbos are unreliable, place too much stress on the engine and cost a fortune to replace when they go wrong, as it surely will". I bought another non-turbo, a mate bought a turbo which he thrashed for about 200k before he scrapped it after extracting and selling the engine which was still going strong.
We have a 2000 reg Xantia HDi which has now done 90k, the mate with the turbo BX has another XantiaHDi with 95k which again he thrashes with minimal maintenance. Neither of us knows what a MAF sensor is let alone an EGR thingy, and you don't seem to need replacement glowplugs either!
As a poster above says, there must be thousands of vans, even more taxis, using CR diesels which have clocked up enormous mileages without these "expensive failures" of the pump, injection system etc. Haven't VW swapped their PD system for CR? There must be CR engined trucks which have clocked up a million miles out there, and yes, I realise they are not the same as car engines and operate generally at lower revs, but surely Renault, as one of Europe's major truck manufacturers is not going to say "OK, let the CR trucks runs for a million miles but let's make our cars only last for 100k before the CR system blows" - or are they?
The POTENTIAL for big bills is not quite the same as those big bills actually occurring for many owners - are they really common????
As you may gather, I know little of the technology, but if these engines were prone to failure why did Ford team up with PSA? Why is Bosch now talking about even higher pressures (up to the 2000 bar mentioned by Greg)? Why are the Japanese introducing more and more CR diesels? Why do truck makers stick with them? Why does MB stick with them for their "Munich Taxis"? Why do BMW use them? Most systems seem to use the same technology - Bosch, Delphi etc? Has their reliability improved since our old Xantia's in the light of all the failures? Is a system that has been around for at least 6 years in cars really "new technology"?
Please excuse the questions of an ignoramus - but we have 4 CR diesels in the family and have yet to have a problem, and since I would probably end up paying the bills on son and daughter's cars am I storing up a future overdraft?????
By the way - they are all French CRs!!!
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Phil
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Remind me never to sit down at a card table with you Phil! You're clearly much more of a gambler than I am!
:-)
My understanding is that CR is not being adopted by choice, I think it is -effectively- necessary to comply with emissions regs. VAG, for example, are moving to CR, partly at least, for the extra flexibility of the specification of the injection event(s).
Obviously, truck CR and car CR are completey different. For example, you are much more likely to see design details like roller followers on the cams of the high pressure fuel pump on the commercial systems. I suppose a modern truck engine costs as much as a mainstream car, so, the fuel system will be much more robust.
I can't imagine there being much common thinking between the specification of mean time to failure for truck parts and that for car parts, even if there is the same badge on the front!
I think that these systems will get better as lessons are learned by the manufacturers. Car engines themselves took the best part of 50 years in development before becoming anywhere near acceptably reliable. Now, we have better technology, better understanding, better modelling capability, and so the development time for new, complex systems is quicker, but it still usually takes a generation of cars to get right. I agree with your point about he large numbers of these engines which are OK, but, that's little consolation for those who find themselves at the expensively unfortunate tail end of the reliability distribution curve.
Perhaps what is really needed is for the testing of these systems to be done using fuel with poorer lubrication qualities than that available at the pump. Instead, I suspect that the fuel system testing labs will have top quality fuel, excellently filtered. (I know that's the case for aerospace development test rigs, but the difference there is the quality standard is also demanded "in the field")
Number_Cruncher
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Arghhhh, so ....... sometime in the coming year when I replace my 10 yr old (petrol) Mondeo with a 3 to 4 yr old Mondeo (say with 60-70k miles) ...... should get another petrol one, or a TDCi as I was originally planning - until I read all this???
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Perhaps what is really needed is for the testing of these systems to be done using fuel with poorer lubrication qualities than that available at the pump
Its already happening by those using 100% biodiesel in CR diesels. Over time it wrecks the injection system. Unfortunately at least one website says diesels built before 2004 are happy to run on 100% biodiesel. Unfortunately the author does not back this up with a promise to pay for expensive problems for anyone who follows this negligent advice.
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Its already happening by those using 100% biodiesel in CR diesels. Over time it wrecks the injection system.
That's a good point actually - with more emphasis on biofuels, will CR diesels cease to exist once we're running on rapeseed-based fuels? I've tried veggie oil in an old Pug, but wouldn't dare put it in the Clio....
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So, NC, always buy top quality seven sisters fuel and install an extra also top quality in-line fuel filter in your Lexus or VW Phaeton V10 turbo?
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My understanding is that CR is not being adopted by choice, I think it is -effectively- necessary to comply with emissions regs. VAG, for example, are moving to CR, partly at least, for the extra flexibility of the specification of the injection event(s).
Such a shame. The higher powered PD's for all their relative lack of refinement, still drive like no other comparably sized diesel engine in my experience. They pull from literally nothing, respond to throttle inputs like a petrol engine, are powerful and ludicrously economical. Reliable too, if my father-in-law's 130,000 mile 130PS Golf is anything to go by. A MAF sensor at 65k and again at 100k (£65 a time from VW) and that is all the engine has had apart from routine servicing. Still goes like stink and does 53 mpg in day to day driving.
Have driven several more modern common rails from Ford, Fiat/Alfa and Peugeot, and while they go as well outright, they just can't match that accelerator response and bottom end stomp. Cracking design IMO.
Cheers
DP
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PhilW, the majority of problems I've heard of are the niggles associated with modern diesel engines (both PD and CR), rather than the actual systems themselves. Niggles cost maybe £100 to put right, and don't recur for a good while. Most engines will do 200k if properly looked after, it's time rather than mileage that concerns me. A mechanical diesel pump seems to last decades, maybe a belt change every few years (I recently saw a Pug 205 diesel on a D-reg, still going 20 years after being made - obviously don't know if it's on its original engine...). The oldest CR diesel car is only 8 years old, and failures are not unheard of. The fact that ANY system can fail within 8 years is a concern to me, regardless of mileage.
Unlike most of the general public, I expect to give a car routine maintenance as advised by the manufacturer, and be rewarded with 100% reliability. I appreciate the sheer numbers of CR engines performing their job faultlessly every day, and I daresay those fitted to lorries are of much higher quality than the ones fitted to cars. I read somewhere that Ford use a higher-quality system in Jaguars than in Fords, as cost is less restrictive.
Anyway, personal experience.... my girlfriend has a Clio DCi, which is running poorly at the moment, suspect EGR valve (a well-documented problem with that engine). Her father has a Mazda 3 with the Ford TDCi engine, which has had poor running problems since new (he'll most likely sell it before the warranty runs out). Both engines are fantastic when performing properly, but seem so tempremental. It's for that reason that I won't buy one. I get 45mpg out of my 1.4 litre petrol, so why on earth would I want an engine that returns 55mpg, but that half the technicians out there don't properly understand should it go wrong?!
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Thanks for those replies - don't know whether I feel reassured though!
NC
"Remind me never to sit down at a card table with you Phil! You're clearly much more of a gambler than I am!
:-)"
I'm not by nature a gambler - hence my choice of NA BX instead of a turbo version about 15 years ago!
Greg
I take your points but
"The fact that ANY system can fail within 8 years is a concern to me, regardless of mileage"
Surely plenty of petrol and NA diesels fail within that time period?? Especially "regardless of mileage" ??
"Mazda 3 with the Ford TDCi, Clio DCi"so tempremental"" - Citroen HDi next time??? :-)
"I get 45mpg out of my 1.4 litre petrol, so why on earth would I want an engine that returns 55mpg, but that half the technicians out there don't properly understand should it go wrong?!"
Yeah but, no but, yeah but what about our 2.0HDi at 90k or my mate's with 95k, or even my daughter's which seems to average 60 mpg over the 40k she has had it? Savings on fuel (not worked it out!!) must be a fair bit, and of course, the final words are "should it go wrong" - why assume that it will on the evidence (maybe just good luck??) I have?? No evidence yet provided that CR failures are any more common than other failures - what about VW and their cambelt failures on certain engines at v. low mileage, is that a good reason for not buying petrols?
Used to be the case on here that anyone who wanted a new car was recommended a Mondeo TDCi - is that no longer the case??!!
I don't know enough about this to argue the case for CR s with any authority as you will have gathered so I hope I won't be back shortly asking for advice about replacing the fuelling system on the Xantia (or the other 3 CRs!!). I just hope I can come back and gloat in a few years about our 50odd mpg Xantia which has cracked 150k!!
Whatever you drive - hope it serves you well and you enjoy many more miles of motoring in it!
Regards
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Phil
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To put some of my experience into this thread for diesel/non-diesel:
- Golf GTI 1.8T 1999 had a gearbox fault on delivery. Fix = new gearbox. And they replaced the turbo for some identified problem (and stolen...).
- Passat 1.8T 2000 had a turbo problem on day one. Dealer insisted on gearbox and swapped for a new one - like you do even though I pleaded it was not the gearbox (I could prove). It was the turbo and swapping it fixed it
- Passat/Golf - lots of other faults such as air-con compressor failure, airbags, locks, squeaking seats, creaking dash, wistling mirror on driver side, etc. the list goes on.
All company cars so not such a headache.
Current Mondeo TDCi
- Two problematic EGR valves (one stuck open and one closed)
- Front bushes replaced (squeaky suspension)
- Ford service via local dealer better than VW. Both close but ford only 1/2 mile.
Would I gamble money on a diesel personally now... probably not.
MPG vs. Risk of huge costs vs. whatever. Either another company car in 2007 or take the money and large capacity non-turbo petrol.
I like decent power and good flat torque curve ... so probably a company diesel... don't turn this into a torque thread!!!!! Please!
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Yes - this is all very interesting - but are there any real stats to back any of this up? (proper stats - not just personal experience with one or two single motors).
On either side?
I'd really like to know one way or the other.
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I see it as rather like previous new tech such as EFI, ABS, SRS, the widespread fitment of aircon etc, an understandable wariness amongst buyers of second hand cars beacuse of the high cost of replacing expensive components and the reduced ease of DIY.
However overtime these concerns have been pretty much unfounded.
The clear difference with CR is that it can provide a better driving experience than a petrol car of a similar size and save a fortune in fuel costs, more than offsetting any increase in repair costs. Very roughly a 2.0 CR TD will save about £30 - 35 per 1000 miles, that is iro £500 a year for the average motorist, the cost of a major dealer service every 7500 miles or a good set of tyres every 10,000 miles or a CR pump every 30,000 miles. What is the average like of a CR pump? Well in excess of 30,000 miles I bet.
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I agree with Scotty, Its the evidence of failure thats needed. I would like to know if fuel systems are failing when *not* abused by putting petrol/biodiesel/cooking oil/ additives in the tank.
For example, I cant find evidence of Fiat Multijet fuel system failure, but over on the Fiat Forum. a group of owners of the New Grande Punto Multijet are considering putting raw cooking oil into the tank.
Perhaps a few multijet pump/injector failures for the future? but will the reason for the failures be as obvious in the future statistics, let alone urban myth?
In contrasting the *other* ( evidenced) potential, high cost engine disaster, compared with worries and inconclusive evidence about frequent common rail failure.
My priority recently has been to exclude cambelts from our family cars as evidence shows they have frequently failed outside the change interval. My point is that four figure costs for cambelt failure have not been unusual and now, at least its possible to choose a * good* ( I am aware of the main exception) chain drive common rail diesel and exclude the belt risks. With massive evidence of cambelt failures and very little evidence for common rail failure, My own risk assessment is in favour of buying common rail with a chain drive, new. Then keeping it long term, thereby avoiding possible damage from a previous misfueling owner, while at the same time controlling depreciation.
The problem is, there`s (IMHO) always the *wild card* in buying used common rail, I read of one owner who *repeatedly* put petrol in the tank. Even if it does not fail in her ownership, at some stage its going to be on a forecourt. Who wants to risk buying that?
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well having my prior post rubbished.. buy Japanese - not Ford or French - I see all the problems identified belong to --.... Ford and French cars (Mazda = Ford).
I rest my case.
PS Who says petrol cars are reliable..? See VAG turbo units
madf
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Well, we are running around on cambelts, but worried about common rail?.................................
Statistically.............
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Well, we are running around on cambelts, but worried about common rail?................................. Statistically.............
Well, actually I did my homework before I bought my car. It's an Almera, one of the most reliable cars on the road, uses a timing chain, it's a GA-series engine so no tensioner worries (touch wood), and it's a petrol. So, statistically...... ;-)
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well having my prior post rubbished.. buy Japanese - not Ford or French - I see all the problems identified belong to --.... Ford and French cars (Mazda = Ford). I rest my case.
Plenty of good stories about French CR diesels in this thread too (I can add several of my own if you like), but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Since the French dominate the CR diesel market you'd expect them to dominate this conversation too. I don't think anything conclusive comes from this other than that if your engine breaks it's expensive and that putting the wrong fuel in is a bad thing. Well, duh!
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CR is the current most used diesel technology for motors and there are many motorist who find them vastly superior in all areas when compared with the old type of diesel engines.
Seeing how people use to purchase those old non-CR black smoking heavy polluting diesel engines (and some still do) I doubt there will be too much of a problem selling CR diesel engined motors either. It's only a matter time before the next flavour of diesel engine technology hits the roads and CR will in time be seen as old hat, but until then CR has a strong place in diesel powered motors.
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I would be very surprised if the greater car-buying public knows what common rail is, much less whether they have an opinion on the relative merits of common-rail vs turbo vs normally aspirated diesel. Their main concerns are that the diesel car they buy is economical, not noisy and not dog slow.
Reliability tends to be judged by the reputation of the marque, not what's fitted under the bonnet. That's even true of buyers who are otherwise technically savvy, and many mechanics too. Out of interest, I have a habit of asking mechanics (whether for cars, washing machines, TVs or whatever) for their opinion of the best makes to buy. I inevitably get one of three answers:
a) Buy Japanese, they rarely break down
b) Buy VW or Skoda, they last longest
c) Buy Ford, they're the cheapest to run
I've never been told "buy a petrol Mondeo, sure, but avoid the TDCis" or "buy a TDI Skoda but not the PD Superbs", so if the mechanics buyers turn to for advice aren't making a distinction, and buyers themselves aren't concerned, I can't see a mass exodus from common rail diesels coming any time soon.
(That said, based on the sound advice of the backroom, CRs are low down on my personal wish-list for a replacement car!)
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It's only a matter time before the next flavourof diesel engine technology hits the roads and CR will in time be seen as old hat, but until then CR has a strong place in diesel powered motors.
In a way it already has, I think some of the state of the art CR diesels have piezo controlled injectors now which are faster and more prcise than the older electro mechanical types.
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"there are a lot of people on this forum that will continue to buy CR's especially if they have a VW badge on the front" VWs don't use CR, so no probs in that department!
I take your point, but VW and Audi will gradually be moving over to CR from PD(unitary injectors) in the next couple of years, as PD technology has apparently reached its limits with regard to noise and emissons control. Also on some of the bigger VaG diesel engines the cylinder head design would have been too bulky and complex if PD were used.
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Although I drive a CR Merc, all these posts have just confirmed that I shall NEVER sell my 2CV that is tucked away in the back of the garage.
So refreshingly simple and it always starts on a charged battery. And there's not a single computer on it! No, it's emissions are nothing special but when Bill Gates goes mad and 'flicks the switch' at least I will still be mobile!
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Well, I can't provide any statistics. I can, however, relate the experience of a friend of mine who has been in the repair business since about 1987. He ran a fairly successful independent repair business by a busy road in a Midlands market town. He had 4-bays and employed a few blokes - doing cambelts, K-series heads etc - all the usual stuff. His recent rates were about £30-40 an hour and competition was getting tough so he wasn't making a deal of money. He's a bright chap though and got into electronic diagnostics.
About 18 months ago he noted that he was getting a lot of out of warranty CR Diesels with all manner of problems, plus referals from local main dealers.
He's now moved to smaller premises and specialises in CR D's. He bought about £20k of test kit but can now charge £60-70 hour because of the demand for specialist Diesel diagnostics.
As he put it to me, a few years back people were coming in with poorly running petrol cars asking 'how much to fix it?'. Now they come in with poorly running diesel cars and ask 'CAN you fix it?'. He is doing very well and is generally booked two weeks ahead. He does virtually all the local Vauxhall diesel problems (they seem to have no in-house expertise) as well as Ford and PSA cars. He keeps a couple of Ford pumps on the shelf and fits one every fortnight or so. Plenty of recoding of injectors, EAC pots and so on. Remember, this is in a rural market town, not a big city. Draw your own conclusions. The man himself runs a (petrol) Subaru, although I admit he does run a signwritten Diesel van too.
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">He does virtually all the local Vauxhall diesel problems (they seem to have no in-house expertise)<"
The manufacturer should always have ultimate expertise, it's merely a matter of knowing which cupboard he's hiding in ;-)
Doesn't OBD2 reveal all with CR engines?
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So the next obvious question for Aprilia particularly, but anyone else in general, is are there any makes that are less problematic than others? I've heard of "issues" with Ford/Vauxhall/PSA/Renault/Nissan/Honda, but how are the like of Fiat or particularly Hyundai faring? Never seem to hear about their CR engines going pop -- but that's possibly due to less of them being on the road. The Koreans seem to have quite a good line in CR diesels these days (1.5l 110bhp superminis etc), and I'm curious.
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As sales of diesel cars have exploded over the last few years the demand for diesel repairs must have also increased. It also stands to reason that, on the whole, diesel cars are bought by those doing higher mileages on average than petrol cars. People who do 30k a year tend to buy diesel so there are loads of 120k+ diesel cars out there where as petrol tends to be bought by low mileage private buyers. You have to put those two aspects back into the statistics.
I doubt a fuel injection and catalytic converter specialist would have done very well in 1982 but in 1994 might have noticed a big leap in demand..
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Aprilia, Would you be so kind as to put this diesel specialist garage in HJs list of recommended garages.
Or at least tell us the small market town.
Could perhaps be of great help to people like myself who live in the midlands if we are unfortunate to have these problems.
wemyss
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I'm feeling a bit more anti-diesel, and anti-Renault today - my girlfriend's Clio DCi is 2 months out of warranty, and began running rough etc, I rightly suspected the EGR valve. Took it to an independant specialist, and £150 later the car's back to normal. It wasn't the valve itself being stuck, but a short-out in the electronics that actuate the valve. The specialist keeps Renault EGR valves in stock, as they're, in his words, "notoriously tempramental".
Are we going to have to pay £150 every three years because of Renault's poor engineering? I'm particularly annoyed as nothing needed doing under the 3 year warranty - it's almost as if the engine is programmed to give trouble just after the warranty runs out. Next time she might pay more attention when I advise her to buy a petrol Hyundai Getz..... ;-)
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On the newer Renaults its the engine wiring loom rusting internally you have to worry about, lots of reports about this new designed in fault.
Look for bulges in any of the wires & you have found the trouble spot.
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On the newer Renaults its the engine wiring loom rusting internally you have to worry about, lots of reports about this new designed in fault. Look for bulges in any of the wires & you have found the trouble spot.
This is not a new Renault problem, this is a very old Renault problem! I remember having to deal with rotted-out Renault wiring in the 1980's. You peel back the insulation and the wire has gone all powdery. Connectors also used to corrode. PSA are not a great deal better, especially on those cars where they put a great big multiway connector on the bulkhead. The contacts rot away and the connector cannot be replaced - you have to cut the wires one by one and solder them together.
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I'm feeling a bit more anti-diesel, and anti-Renault today - my girlfriend's Clio DCi is 2 months out of warranty, and began running rough etc, >>
2 months, did you try the dealer? Many dealers would sort that out for you that close to a warranty expiry particularly if the car was bought from them, at worst you would have had a good will contribution from Renault.
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It's a fair point that we don't know how many of the failed CR diesels were misfuelled or otherwise abused, but it is also fair to say that problems with CR technology are either much more common than with mechanical injection, or much better publicised.
I personally have never heard of an older diesel engine needing any mechanical attention at all in its first few years as long as the service schedule was adhered to. OK you might be looking at getting the injectors cleaned every 100k or so, but one of the big selling points of the diesel engine, economy apart, was that there wasn't much on them to go wrong, and hence reliability was almost guaranteed if the engine was properly maintained. It is becoming more apparent (to me anyway) that one can't approach CR systems with anything like the same level of confidence.
Of course, the benefits of CR are enormous, and I don't dispute that they are in a different league to the old mechanical injection units, but I wouldn't personally risk a CR diesel as things stand now unless it was nearly new, low mileage, and had a watertight warranty. Certainly doing what I did with our old Mondeo which is buying it at 5 yrs old and 100k for a couple of grand would be out of the question when one fault the next day could effectively write the car off. For all its noise and gutlessness, I know I would have to be almost unbelievably unlucky to encounter a mechanical fault on the old TD engine (timing belt failure apart) which I couldn't put right myself for less than a hundred quid or so. Good secondhand parts are readily available, and the workings of the fuel system could be understood by my 2 year old.
I suggested in a previous debate that CR pumps and the like would follow petrol EFI parts prices and come down to more affordable levels to enable older cars to be patched up cheaper, but had several well informed replies suggesting that it would be impossible due to the tolerances and stringent processes involved in manufacturing these components. That is surely what makes CR unique in relation to any previous "new" technology on petrol engines. I believe reliability will improve as newer generations of the technology appear, but if parts prices remain as they are, and the reliability is as patchy as some suggest, we will see a lot of the current generation of cars in scrapyards at five years old. When the pump fails on your 100,000 mile 5yr old Mondeo TDCi, worth about £2.5k, the car is effectively scrap at current parts prices.
So, would you spend £2.5k on it in the first place if it appeared in Autotrader? I don't think I would, personally. Sure, it could be OK, but I could buy a well looked after petrol equivalent that I could be confident would be less than half way through its economical lifespan.
All IMHO of course.
Cheers
DP
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Good post and largely sums up my own feelings. Although my Renault diesel has been faultless in 24K, I am reverting to a petrol engined car next as I am simply not prepared to take the risk of some huge out of warranty bill a few years down the line. Also I only do about 9K a year - and due to fall as I work more and more from home now - so having a diesel really isn't sensible in my case, nice though they are to drive.
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Good post and largely sums up my own feelings. Although my Renault diesel has been faultless in 24K, I am reverting to a petrol engined car next as I am simply not prepared to take the risk of some huge out of warranty bill a few years down the line. >>
The point with a CR diesel is that unlike other new tech in the past, EFi etc, it actually saves the owner a significant amount of money in fuel cost terms, as I said above, very roughly a 2.0 CR TD will save about £30 - 35 per 1000 miles, that is iro £500 a year for the average motorist, the cost of a major dealer service every 7500 miles or a good set of tyres every 10,000 miles or a CR pump every 30,000 miles. What is the average like of a CR pump? Well in excess of 30,000 miles I bet.
So in your case Xileno you have already saved best part of £1000 in fuel so could afford a biggish repair and still be quits.
In my case I am as much as £4000 better off over 110,000 miles in my Mondeo compared with running a 2.0 petrol over the same mileage, so IF I have £2000 worth of CR bills I would still be 2 grand better off than I would have been running a 2.0 petrol and even if I had to scrap the car tomorrow I would be no worse of thatn if I had been running a 2.0 petrol and sold it for £4000.
No brainer really.
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No brainer really.
When buying new, or nearly new then absolutely. For the person who comes to buy your car on the used market when you sell it though it's a very different prospect, which ties in with the OP's question about used values.
Speaking personally as a buyer, it is difficult to value a CR diesel when it gets to around 5 yrs / 100k because yes, it offers me all those benefits you mention in terms of fuel economy and performance, but I would have no operating cost savings to offset that £2,000 CR bill if it should arise.
With old-tech diesels and most petrols, you can fix them "on the cheap" if you are resourceful and don't mind getting your hands dirty. The problem with CR is that cheap fixes appear to be impossible due to astronomical parts prices, and what I suspect is incredibly high demand for parts from the few accident write offs that are appearing in the breakers. If it's your main mode of transport, it has to be up and running again quickly, and that won't be possible if you're scouring breakers on the off chance for a part that probably 20 people will have beaten you to.
Assuming you even find a good used pump, fitting it yourself is not an option because they're linked into the immobiliser system and reprogramming work is required. Fitting a pump to an old diesel involves £50 to a breakers yard and half an hour with a dial gauge and a set of timing pins to set it up. A different world. As of course is the performance and refinement, but at this exact moment in time I need reliability and cheap repairs if it does go wrong. As I suspect do a lot of buyers when looking at cars around the £2k mark.
I completely understand your reasons for going the CR route, and for your circumstances it makes perfect sense. But that won't apply to a used buyer who won't be getting the warranty support, and who will be looking to start making those savings from scratch on an engine that's already done 110k, and which could cost over £2k to put right if the worst happens. That's a much riskier position to be in, and not one I would personally choose.
Cheers
DP
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well touch wood our non CR Peugeot 106 diesle has lasted 13 years with only regular egine maintenance plus cambelts and glow plugs.
I expect my yaris CR diesel to last as long.
Complaints about Renault diesels are imo just a complaint about general Renault quality. Where are the millions of PSA HDI drivers? Not posting on this forum for sure.
I suspect most problems are maker specific.
Renault - build /design quality.
Ford - manuafacturing defects and inability to train service staff...
madf
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Well, I started this post, and am glad that I did, because the responses have made very interesting and informative reading. (Thanks all)
3 comments:
1) There does seem to be evidence that Honda and Toyota CR engines are less of a gamble than most others, but I think it interesting that Toyota is selling the Aygo with a PSA Common Rail diesel engine. Toyota care about their reputation for reliablity, and their engineers are not fools. Implication is that they think these units are fairly safe. (I'd still be cautious, though!)
2. Interesting comments above from MikeTorque and Gromit. If one looks at reliability and satisfaction surveys (e.g. JD Power, Which, etc) they do enable one to look at both the overall standing of a particular brand, and also the rating of particular models. Hence, for example, surveys have tended to show the Ford Focus coming out a lot better than the C-Max. There would be nothing at all to stop these surveys from including statistics for how, say, Ford diesels compared with Fords with petrol engines.
3. We are all going to be watching PhilW and his reports on his vehicles very carefully over the next few years!
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1) There does seem to be evidence that Honda and Toyota CR engines are less of a gamble than most others, >>
There is no evidence to suggest that some CR diesels are significantly more reliable than others, although there have been a number of Mondeo's featured recently on here the Mondeo is many times more numerous on the road than most others and covers a higher than average mileage, also understandably owners with problems tend to gravitate towards a helpful site like this.
To reinforce this point there have been no references to the X-Type which uses the same diesel engines and same componentry as the Mondeo, the reason is that X-Types are far less numerous than Mondeos however the Accord is also far less numerous despite which there have been a few references to Honda CR related problems recently.
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Given the trouble I'm having buying a Xantia HDi 110 with less than 80k miles, and the vast number (on e-bay particularly) that have done >130k, I'm not too bothered about taking the punt. Especially at >£900 a year in fuel saving over the equivalent 2.0 petrol Xantia.....
--
RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Further to my last post the other factor worthy of consideration:
Off setting possible repair costs against service costs, I ran a 2.5 V6 Vectra, a dealer cambelt job inc tensioners and pulleys was IRO £600 so £1200 over 120k miles, the TDCI has no major service items to attend to over that time and uses £5000 less in fuel!
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">also understandably owners with problems tend to gravitate towards a helpful site like this. <"
Type:
TDCi problems
into Google and see what's on top.
I am very keen to see the price of TDCi Mundanos plummet. I can buy one then ;-)
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"3. We are all going to be watching PhilW and his reports on his vehicles very carefully over the next few years!"
Thanks tyro-would reply at length but difficult to type when fingers are crossed! 3 Cit HDis still working OK and (dare I say it)1 Ren 1.5DCi! Will keep you informed !
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Phil
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I'm on my 3rd diesel, first CR one.
I maintain fuel quality has lots to do with it.
1. XUD engine - failed emissions once at MOT. Stopped using supermarket fuel, never a problem again
2. Vauxhall DI - pump failed after I'd passed the car on. Now, it was 140k but new owner started on Tesco fuel, I used BP
3. Vauxhall CR - only Shell (literally 10% better economy) or BP. 21k in 17 months.
Diesel pumps use the fuel as lubrication, why shave 1 or 2 pence per litre on an obviously complex bit of kit?
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I have not heard of this problem being common on Renaults. There is no such thing as a 'Renault EGR valve, IIRC the valve is actually made by Pierburg. The EGR valves can get stuck but this is more likely down to crud causing the valve to stick. Renault dealers are issued with a tool and should be inspecting and cleaning the valves. What can cause problems with these engines is too much low speed town driving, they are often smoother after a really hard drive. And I am convinced the 18K oil change interval is not a help either. Interestingly, the oil change has now been reduced on the latest range...
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As the past owner of a troublesome Mondeo diesel my view is that their residual value would be nil to me. I would not buy another. The general frustration at poor running that the dealer cannot cure is beyond words, not to mention the danger and inconvenience. Nobody seems to have much idea how these things work or how to fix them and any repair work means a massive bill.
I now have a petrol engine Honda. It may cost me a bit more in fuel but is likely to be more reliable and if it does give trouble then I think most garages would be able to help me out.
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Nobody seems to have much idea how these things work or how to fix them and any repair work means a massive bill.>>
Well my Mondeo TDCi has been very reliable over 111,000 miles, the three dealers I have used for servicing all appear to know how it works and the one occasion that an injector needed reprogramming (the car went in to Limp Home mode) the dealer took 30 mins to fix while I waited by plugging in to the diagnostics port, they should have charged me around £45 because it was out of warranty though did it out of good will as a I was a regular customer re servicing.
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I have not heard of this problem being common on Renaults.
Read HJ's comments in the CBC section for the last model Clio, New Micra, Megane etc etc.
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And another thing.........
........... there are loads of CR Transits, Sprinters, Vitos etc with mega mileages, no evidence of exceptional repair costs there.
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Personally I hope the price of CR diesels crashes, then I can buy something newer - another Xantia. Has anyone factored in that there are now far more diesel cars than there used to be?
Mine Xantia's on 140K now.
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Xantia HDi.
Buy a Citroen and get to know the local GSF staff better...
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