I wish I'd seen this ............ I like Penny Smith.
_______
IanS
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Just a quick comment on the "only cause 0.6C rise anyway" thing - I read that the last ice age was triggered by a temperature change of just 1.7C - we're already past that, but still, food for thought.
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And the program itself, I caught the last 5 minutes of and the end when they wre driving around in it just made me want to hurt them, as she was driven around all smug like Lady of the Manor. I really hope someone scratches it. We actually do have a Lord and Lady locally, and they drive a Volvo V70 D5, or an old Ford Scorpio.
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... the end when they wre driving around in it just made me want to hurt them, as she was driven around all smug like Lady of the Manor. I really hope someone scratches it.
Goodness me. Do you have any item - anything at all - in your life that you are pleased and happy you own, that you enjoy? Would it concern you if a complete stranger wanted to hurt you because of that feeling, and hope it got damaged?
That seems a strange attitude to me; perhaps that isn't what you intended but that how it reads to me.
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I didn't mean it like that, I meant that it really really bugged me the way that, when presented with all the evidence that she just completely disregarded it and swaned off in her own little world because the reason THEY wanted it more than anything else was for it's perceived 'status'.
If there was another reason, then fine, I accept the decision and I wouldn't proceed to judge them, but for their situation and their needs it was all about perception, and those kind of people just get my back up.
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>>>> her own little world because the reason THEY wanted it morethan anything else was for it's perceived 'status'. Our Daughter was put through private schooling from the age of 3.1/2 till 16 or whatever. Several snobs who incidentally didn't drive much very fancy used to look down their noses at my Bedford van CF2 haha. Load of Pratts. Didn't stop the school from giving me lots of building and maintenance work.
It's not what you drive.....it's who you are.....Death is a great leveller you know....Now, another glass of............
VBR..............MD
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With China building 20 coal-fired power stations in the next few years and increasing their passenger aircraft fleet from 800-odd to nearly 5000, why bother about a few mpg?
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The equivelent of buying a leather trimmed Ford Transit without the room ,has to be one of the most americanised horrible pieces of overpriced tin on the road.
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They're so ugly though - slab sided sheds on wheels. All the subtlety of a breeze block to the face.
I didn't see it but the couple sound like a prize pair of pfd's.
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I just noticed - Range Rover "Sport"?
What next? The 4.5 V8 "Economy"? The 1.0 "Sporting"? (I think FIAT beat me to it there, but you get my point.)
Pointless vehicles.
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the range-rover sport - ah yes, it is the current "car to have" among a certain "class" of people who think that it confers another "class" status on them. (usually they now also believe need to have two, yes it has to be two, doberman dogs to go with the car). not so long ago, these people used to think of owning a jaguar-xj did the trick. note, that for them a bmw-x5 or toyota landcruiser, or other 4x4 - even any other range-rover - of more of less same power and space won't do. it has to be the range-rover in sport guise. if allowed, they would paint it in burberry's trade mark checks.
i have no problems with anyone who wants to buy any car for any reason. their money and their choice. the above are just my thought of a trend that i have noticed recently.
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the range-rover sport - ah yes, it is the current "car to have" among a certain "class" of people who think that it confers another "class" status on them.
Someone say it - It's a car for rich chavs with more money than taste or sense.
Before someone says it, it's not jealousy, I think they're hideous looking things.
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more money than sense
>>
penny smith said this to the couple direct on camera.
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Someone say it - It's a car for rich chavs with more money than taste or sense. Before someone says it, it's not jealousy, I think they're hideous looking things.
I actually quite like them. Which probably means I've got no taste or sense but fits in nicely with the fact that I've no money either!
As for them looking hideous, well I'm sure you'll be able to find someone, somewhere, who will find any car ever made "hideous" (perhaps with the possible exception of the current DB9).
Ford/Land Rover sell these cars. The couple in the OP wanted one (and could afford it) - so what exactly is the problem?
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The problem is with other people trying to get this couple to justify their decision. Why should they, as you say it's their money they can spend it how they like. I could afford decent 4x4, but I just can't see the point.
My brother in law caught the 'We need a 4x4' bug after moving to a new house and seeing a few neighbours had them. They thought one offered plenty of advantages over their Audi - easy to get in to, high driving position, lots of storage and luggage space etc etc. After six months they realised that it gave an awful ride making their 3 year old son sick even on short journeys, it didn;t like going round corners, it drank fuel at twice the rate of the Audi, it was cumbersome to park and it was slow. So they swapped it for a Passat!
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>>>> Someone say it - It's a car for rich chavs withmore money than taste or sense.
Summed up years ago. If Mr & Mrs Chelsea tractor come to dinner at my house and then I suggested, "hell, we'll eat at the Kitchen table," all hell may break loose, but if Paul M'Cartney suggested the same it would be chuffing marvellous!
Labrador under table been indiscreet..........phew....off to garden briefly............MD.
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The equivelent of buying a leather trimmed Ford Transit without the room ,has to be one of the most americanised horrible pieces of overpriced tin on the road.
sounds lovely where can i get one?
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I dislike 4x4s generally (not on any kind of moralistic principle, they're just everything I dislike in a car) but I love the Range Rover Sport. There's one near where I work in a gorgeous burnt orange colour and with the chrome detailing it looks stunning.
I really don't want to like it. At all. It's pointless. But I can't help myself. The Supercharged V8 sounds lovely off the lights as well. If I had that kind of dough burning a hole in my pocket, I would be tempted.
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Their money. Their choice. If they wanted to pile up £5 notes in a heap and burn them, they are free to do so.
I don't like the RR Sport, it's not for me. But they like it. So they bought one, and I didn't. Everyone is happy.
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The only concern with the "their money, their choice" argument, of course, is that there has to be a line somewhere.
One woudn't take that line if they were spending their money on buying a Chieftan tank as their preferred mode of transport, and damaging property or people with it.
Clearly then the discussion is, as always, where you draw the line, and that makes the debate.
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where you draw the line, and that makes the debate.
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when the behaviour is illegal, that's where. end of debate.
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>> where you draw the line, and that makes the debate. >> when the behaviour is illegal, that's where. end of debate.
Ah, but the law is an ass!
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The only concern with the "their money, their choice" argument, of course, is that there has to be a line somewhere. One woudn't take that line if they were spending their money on buying a Chieftan tank as their preferred mode of transport, and damaging property or people with it. Clearly then the discussion is, as always, where you draw the line, and that makes the debate.
True, but then again you can walk into any RR showroom dotted around the country and order a RR sport. Try doing that with a chieftan tank.
We are talking about buying/owning a mainstream car here for goodness sake, RRs has been on our roads for over 35 years!
IMO the "line" is drawn where it becomes illegal - as long as it's legal, people are free to do as they like. Whether I happen to like it or not doesn't really enter the equation).
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I saw the programme and the guy seemed mostly interested in the 'status' and 4x4 would give him. He came over as an obnoxious character and at one point he commented that people would 'look at him in a RR' and said he 'liked being looked at'. Since he had a passing resemblence to Ivy off Coronation St. I hope he gets privacy glass for it. The couple involved seemed almost child-like in their desire to have one - reminded me of my kids looking in the Argos catalogue and suddenly finding a toy that they couldn't live without.
I once had (briefly) a RR as a company car when I worked for Rover and they are a right pain in everyday use. It had the Dunlop/Lucas air suspension system and the handling was woeful.
These big 4x4's are built for a specific job (off roading and towing) - to use one for everyday urban driving is a bit like me using my 3/4"-drive socket set to strip a motorbike engine.
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I'm sure that if were to appear on a TV programme discussing my choice of car or motorcycle, the producer could make me look an utter fool (not difficult), or a thoughtful, considerate individual (a bit more skilful).
I didn't see the programme (thankfully), but I think it's more about what the producer wanted to show, than what the car buyers wanted to drive or own. Their big mistake was agreeing to be on the show.
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I wonder how long this fad for large 'off-roaders' will last - hopefully fashions will change and we'll get rid of the damn things actually off road!
The RR Sport is even uglier than the current model Rolls Royce which seems to be a straight copy from the model used in Thunderbirds....
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The requirements for increased pedestrian safety may well bring the demise of the 4x4 - or at least significant design changes.
The NCAP testing representative on the programme was trying to put them off by raising the issue of how much damage is caused when a person is hit by a 4x4 - if you are hit by one the leg damage sustained is virtually irrepairable.
His argument was if you should kill a pedestrian (or a passenger in another car) could you live with yourself knowing the type of car you were driving was a considerable factor in their death?
Alternatively if their daughter was hit by a 4x4 could they forgive the driver if it was shown she would have survived if she was hit by for example the Mercedes?
They obviously thought they could.
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Buying because of presumed "status" is what drives the entire market:
- Every sparkie and plumber in county has to have a Transit. He carries maybe one large item every year and 99.9% of time could easily fit all his toolshop into Astra Estate or even VW Caddy. But small commercials are for junior BT employees. He's not a tradesman until he has at least one white van on his driveway.
- A corner shop owner is not fully successfull until he has a Merc. E class only says "I'm doing OK", S class says "I have a long lease on my shop and I'm not moving anywhere". He might be working around the clock and all sundays and the car might be just parked in front of the store getting dustier and hotter by the minute but hey, that's why he picked clima pack and air conditioned leather seats. And it will be low mileage come to sale as well, so win-win.
- Foreman is not a foreman until he has a pickup. He won't let anyone put any bricks or mortar at the back, because it would scratch all the expensive chromed bars. Back is for his bag with the casual allsports. That bag would fit into Ford Ka, but no, he has building site to run, so it has to be Mitsubishi Warrior and for gods sake, why can't he have a snorkle as well, there could be some rainwater on the way.
- Chippy must have a beemer. Ebay "M" badged 5 series. Or 3 series if not too good in his trade. Worst case scenario - he'll buy debaged 316 if bad in his trade and not running his own venture. Oherwise people would take him for
- A brickie - every brickie in a crew must have a Golf. Any color as long as it's silver. Because everyone knows silver Golf fits well on the end of platic St.George's flag. Golf must also have a little dandly england away uniform stuck on the back window and the biggest local footbal club sticker they have in official store. He'll get a Mini after promotion. Otherwise people would take him for
- A soccer mum who thinks Volvo is for pensioners. She has a child, and hubby is never around so MPV was a neccessity, you see. 7 seater. How would people know otherwise she has a kid?
Beyond bottom spec Daewoo and company provided Mondeo most of the cars on the road are bought in one way or another as status symbol. The "brought up in council estate but we are just like anyone else, B&Q turf grass in 2sqm garden ,white walls and ikea furniture" Ford Focus. The "LlOOOOOooooeeEEEEEbbb!!!" Citroen Saxo with "go faster" Kenhaswood/Dyna Reflux white stickers on doors. The "ain't I a yuppie Estate Agent" Smart ForTwo. The "RAC - where everybody knows your name. We're half way there, living on a prayer" humming Alfa Romeo 156. The "Passat is for peasants. I employ people" Audi. A what? A6. Or the "What do you mean - used? I will not be seen in old car at local supermarket" Peugeot.
In times when jeans from Asda George look better than worn out originaly dirty Levis and far eastern Armani suits fit on a fast office sandwich and after 6 beer chaser fat stomach the same way as cheap Ciro Cicero knock off it's not what you wear, but what you drive that matters. And I don't think it's particularly bad, or shameful. It's economics of society.
White middle class couple in X-generation conservative voting suburban enclave will not drive around the hood in just any E class "hindumobile". The RR is like yankie Escalade. It will say it all - the area they live in, the money they have. It says "our kids will go to private school" and "we have windows cleaners every saturday and Eastern European au pair nanny". It says "we will not dig in rubbish bags to separate recyclables from rubbish just so you can cash in on a deal with foreign landfils". And "up yours Tony". Don't you want to have one right now?
And smile.
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Engineers expend all that effort designing sophisticated suspensions, tyres, parsimonious engines, low-drag bodies, etc
and then the driving tools choose something like this...
Sure, if you want one, and can afford one, then buy one. But dig deep, and ask yourself, why DO you *want* one ?
Yes, if you do have to go truly off-road, or tow something truly big and heavy, then such vehicles are justified (though IIRC, the Lexus RX400h is faster, yet uses far less fuel).
Otherwise, as exemplified by the couple on the programme, your argument is no stronger than an ultimate expression of the fall-back excuse "My dad's bigger than your dad".
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Those people showed no class what so ever. A Merc E estate shows so much more "I have money but I show class and restraint and prefer to buy a better engineered, more comfortable and more practical piece of machinery - I don't need to boast about how much money I have" type of people.
Me? I would have the RR SPORT. Its a bling mota.,
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Wow. There's a lot of anger on this forum today.
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"more money than sense"
People are banging this term about like it?s a bad thing. I?d love to have more money than sense. I?d be loaded.
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"more money than sense" People are banging this term about like it?s a bad thing. I?d love to have more money than sense. I?d be loaded.
Not necessarily BBD. All depends on the common measure, not yet established, of both money and 'sense'.
It would be nice not to have money worries. But what would it be like, really, to be as thick as two short planks? No joke I imagine.
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If thick as two short planks but also well loaded, does that make you of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha descent? Joke is on the UK I think!
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"more money than sense" People are banging this term about like it?s a bad thing. I?d love to have more money than sense. I?d be loaded.
Yeah, so would I. Trouble is, without my sense I wouldn't be able to make money. Ah, it's complicated.
- - - - - - -
Free enterprise is the basis of western democracy.
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Gosh, I seem to have started something here!
One woudn't take that line if they were spending their money on buying a Chieftan tank as their preferred mode of transport, and damaging property or people with it.
If someone wants to drive a tank as their daily transport, then I don't have a problem with that, subject to the one proviso below. To me, that is them exercising their individuality, and that is a good thing. We are all different - just imagine how much worse life would be if we all wore Chairman Mao suits and drove grey Ford KAs "because that's all we really need".
I drive a 911 regularly. That's my little bit of individuality. Open-top, of course - how else are you meant to hear people insulting you as you drive by? ;-)
The one proviso is that you do not hurt people by your choice. A Chieftan tank would probably rip up the tarmac, block the road, and damage the road furniture. I know - an old friend was in the BAOR and drove Chieftans around Germany. He said the trick was to point the gun backwards - that way, when you turned left, you could bend all the signs over to make it easier next time! Something less imposing that a Chieftan might be ok though - there are army vehicles that are smaller, and without tracks.
So we need some definition of what is acceptable, which is (of course) the Construction & Use regulations. So if you don't like RR Sports, go and present your case to the EU to change the regs. Changes do happen - look at the shift from aircooled 911s to watercooled in order to meet new noise regulations.
In the end, that is what the law is meant to be - a collective definition by the people for the people of what behaviour is acceptable and what is not*. Trying to make the owners feel guilty for doing something legal is just pointless. You're barking up the wrong tree and making a fool of yourself.
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*in theory..... yes, I know....
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Gosh, I seem to have started something here!
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i thought i beat you to it by my post timed at 11.00am above.
to quote:
"... no problems with anyone who wants to buy any car for any reason. their money and their choice ... "
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I seem to be making a habit of that today!
No offence meant, Dalglish!
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What's really cool is having enough money to buy a Mercedes / BMW / Audi / new big 4x4 and driving a Mondeo or similar because you want to get from A to B inconspicuously in a perfectly comfortable, decent to drive car without giving a to55 what complete strangers think your net worth is.
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a perfectly comfortable, decent to drive car without giving a to55 what complete strangers think your net worth is.
The trouble with that theory is that if you come into that kind of money, you will probably try out something nice. Then, assuming you like cars, you will probably recalibrate your view of what constitutes comfortable and decent to drive.
I'll probably get flamed into cinders for this, but the difference between BMWs, Mercs, Audis etc and the rest is more than just a badge and a price list. The cars are actually better.
And yes, from time to time I do drive non-prestige cars - much of this week, for instance. And I am very glad when I get back into the BMW or the Porsche, because they are more comfortable and they are more pleasant to drive.
(I'll go and hide now, shall I?)
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(I'll go and hide now, shall I?)
Not at all. Your comments make a lot of sense.
I have driven a few BMW's and Audis and I know what you mean about "feel" and the general impression of finish being of a much higher standard. That said, I still reckon the latest generation mass market stuff has closed the finish and feel gap quite considerably, but only time will tell if durability and build quality has followed suit.
But I know what you mean completely, and I don't dislike prestige cars. I have a good allowance from work and while I couldn't go out and lease a RR Sport (Two wheels and the drivers seat maybe), I could manage a mid spec 3 series or A4 fairly comfortably. Thing is for my hellish 40 mile M25 commute, my old Mondeo does the job almost as well, and I know which I'd rather leave in the station car park all day. It has air conditioning and a decent CD player which lets face it in a 0-10 mph slog for an hour in the dead of Summer is more use than 200 bhp and all that lovely German engineering.
If my circumstances change then maybe my views will. In fact, I'm sure they will. At the moment though I'm content with a few hundred quid extra a month to do what I want with and drive my paid for car which if it fell apart tomorrow quite frankly would owe me nothing. If I buy a BMW, it will be because I fall in love with the car rather than any image that goes with it. I have no problem with anyone who buys any car because they genuinely appreciate its qualities.
Cheers
DP
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I know I'm out of touch and an old git but are the middle class really this shallow and stupid,the wife seems to have an I.Q. similar to the profile on a Range-Rover tyre and I bet they vote labour !
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Marketing is ALL about perception. If you can persuade some mug to buy something they don't need, for a massive price, then you have succeeded. 'Well done' to the marketing guys - though they didn't have to try very hard 'cos there's plenty of those status-seeking mugs out there!
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there's plenty of those status-seeking mugs out there!
I assume you mean me, here? ;-)
Well, my first BMW was a hand-me-down within the firm where I worked, and was not my choice. Before I was given it, I made jokes like that. Then I used it regularly ... it was a lowly 316i Compact, the cheapest and nastiest thing in BMW's range. And I promptly shut up, because it was indeed better than the cars I had owned before. Then the time came to trade it in, and I realised it had been cheaper to run, too.
There are also plently of envious people out there who need to justify their decision not to run a prestige car with any reason other than the admission "I can't afford it".
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I assume you mean me, here? ;-)
Before I was given it, I made jokes like that.
Sorry, it wasn't meant to be personal - but it wasn't a joke either.
When I first entered marketing, I was told that that I would never see the world in quite the same way again - and it's quite true. It's sad to be so cynical, but you can see through it all.
There are plenty of examples of product re-positioning - e.g. Lucozade used to be a product for invalids recovering from illness - now it is a sports drink for those who are fit and healthy (OR PERCEIVE themselves as being sporty!). 4x4s used to be filthy things that farmers drove but the marketing guys have again worked their magic. Fantastic!
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Sorry, it wasn't meant to be personal
No worries ... I like to combine being thick-skinned with giving as good as I get :-D
but it wasn't a joke either. When I first entered marketing, I was told that that I would never see the world in quite the same way again - and it's quite true. It's sad to be so cynical, but you can see through it all.
My job takes me (at times) to the edges of marketing and branding - it has taught me to distinguish between branding that distinguishes the quality from the humdrum, and branding that capitalises on a perception.
Cars are a problematic field in that, often, a branding exercise has flavours of both. The BMW 1-series springs to mind. And the industry certainly includes players on both side of the divide - you'll notice that my list did not include Saab. Why not? Because I tried them out and decided that the price and the shiny chrome and glass dealerships were not reflected in the car.
But there are prestige cars out there that are genuinely better, and worth their price.
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I've noted that people on this forum love to run off down the 'envy' root. Remember that with the price of used cars these days about 80% of the working population could readily afford to run a decent 4x4 - even if its an 8-year-old Pajero or such. I also suspect that a vast number of people could afford to run a 'prestige' car but choose not to simply because they are really not interested in cars or they would rather spend the money on something else.
Similarly, a lot of people running prestige cars struggle to make ends meet - but its really personally important to them to be seen in an expensive motor.
Last summer I had an asian chap from Coventry want to buy a £17k E-class off me. He left a deposit but then rang me over several days pleading for more time to get money together. After about 5 days he hadn't managed it so I rang him and offered to give him his deposit back. Anyway, he declined and turned up a couple of days later with the balance in cash, explaining the struggle he'd had to get the money together. I think he'd borrowed bits and pieces off all his family and all his mates. He was a youngish guy with a family and I almost felt guilty about taking his money - no way would I get into that situation, but so many do...
Now, my oppposition to 4x4's is based on the fact that they are 'bad cars' - they cause more accident damage (to other cars and pedestrians) than saloon cars, they are not necessarily safer for their occupants than normal cars, they are less fuel efficient, they are less space efficient, they handle less well than than normal cars...I could go on. They have all these drawbacks because they are optimised for a particular task - namely off-road driving where their four-wheel drive, high ground clearance, compliant suspension, M&S tyres are a requirement of the job.
4x4's became fashionable because in the USA the vehicle manufacturers noticed that they were not included in Federal CAFE fuel economy calculations, and moreover they are classed as 'trucks' for type approval purposes meaning that they were much easier and cheaper to design (wrt crash regulation and approval etc). They were thus heavily marketed in the US and became fashionable and the UK has followed suit.
New design regulations will come into force next year which will make it much more difficult to introduce new-to-market SUV's which don't meet certain crash-safety and pedestrian impact criteria. This will have a significant effect on the future of the SUV market, as well as that of other cars (e.g. front engine, RWD cars with low bonnet lines - like BMW Z-series).
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Agree with you 100% Aprilia.
What really shocks me with big 4x4s that are bought 'for the family' is how small their boots are. However, I had a Porsche Cayenne as a courtesy car one day, and it sure made driving around town easier as people ran out of your way (although I was worried how clients might judge me on the basis of the car I was driving).
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Funnily enough had a first ride in a Cayenne Turbo S yesterday, a loaner to one of our Account Directors whose Cayman S was poorly.
Highly impressed by the way it went & cornered (& I drive a 944 as a daily driver), lots of toys, including full TV with screen in front as well as rear of headrests. Small boot.
Apparently from someone else I know with one, it's 14-15MPG on a run & single figures around town!!!!
Interesting article in a Porsche mag the other week about the high depreciation being suffered by them as first time buyers run them on Companies & 2nd & 3rd owners can't afford them.
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See a lot of Cayennes around town and in Surrey-Sussex. When someone who can drive is driving one it's obvious they are really good, nippy and athletic as well as having all that brute power and speed. Of course most of them just waddle around looking expensive and drinking heavily.
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Aprilia, you talk a lot of sense.
I watched some of the programme but in the end came and read this message board because the couple concerned were so obnoxiously conceited and concerned solely with image and attracting attention in their RR that I couldn't care less which car they bought. I bet they had an AGA and lived off ready cooked meals from Harrods (not Tesco). MB was a nice car though!
--
Phil
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It's no wonder all this stereotyping exists: according to Yellow Pages all families need people carriers (as promoted by James Nesbitt when his 'wife' becomes pregnant for the first time)!
I generally agree with what Aprilia has to say on the subject. I would not like to see a 4x4 coming into the side of my car after seeing the 5th gear show (last year?) which showed the damage they could do even with side impact bars. The result? More people are buying 4x4s to make them feel taller and safer. I even feel uneasy when I park next to one and compare the size of a 4x4 to the Escort. It's the old "I can't let my kids walk to school with so much traffic on the road" effect.
I don't think people get jellous of those with 4x4s, just annoyed that they're too wide for many parking spaces, can't see through/round them at junctions, have to be extra careful of the drivers movements because of increase blindspots, and, as my friends mum found out, are too tall to put a shopping basket on when loading up thus laying them on other peoples cars leaving four corner dents in the roof. The size reason is partly my theory on why people don't like white van drivers as well, as I think it all comes down to that same thing.
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Mike Farrow
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An A4 or 3-series may indeed be more solidly-built than a Mondeo, but this thread was originally about a Range Rover Sport, and that, most definitely, is a car borne purely out of marketing-thought, and the main reason for anyone buying one is that of image.
Unfortunately, that image may mainly only be recognised by similar-minded people.
I still say fine, buy whatever you want, and buy one of these if that's what you choose, but (additionally judging by the strength of this thread) the image received by a significant proportion of the populace is probably the exact opposite of what you intended to project...
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that image may mainly only be recognised by similar-minded people
tunacat - you got it perfectly.
the reason why any consumer society where there is a "choice" buys a particular expensive product over another cheaper yet completely adequate for the purpose product is down to:
"politics" or "psychology" of envy.
this was explained on the programme last night, and was demonstrated clearly by the couple in question when they made the choice of the range-rover sport despite all the attempts to dissuade them.
the principle is also demonstrated by the example quoted by aprilia of the guy (race irrelevant) who wanted to buy the merc. he did so because he wanted it for purely for show - i.e. keeping up with the expectations of similar-minded people in his community, or in other words "keeping up with the jones'" or "politics of envy".
absolutely nothing to do with trying to keep up with america and their love affair with "trucks". they do that for their own politics of envy.
most people generally buy cars or 4x4's for their won reasons, not because they meet or fail the criteria that an engineer thinks are paramount.
in india (and china and cuba, etc. ), for example, while there is/was an absence of choice, the cars people who had any money were forced to buy were mainly austin or fiat based models from the dinosaur age. now that they have choice, they buy cars totally out of keeping with their transport needs but based entirely on the politics of envy.
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The funny thing is I followed a RR Sport the other week over the Birchwood expressway ( a short duel carriageway over the M6 near Warrington). I was following it (both had a standing start) and he was going for it as diesel smoke was coming out constantly. It was all chavved up with blacked out windows and aftermarket-looking huge wheels and a bullbar etc.
The funny thing was this 'Sport' vehicle was holding me up. Fortunately the delightful looking young chav type driving it seemed to realise and pulled over and I sailed past effortlessly in my 1982 Ford Granada. The look on his face was a picture. Of course at the roundabout he floored it again, but I outhandled it on the roundabout and accelerated up the next section of duel carriageway leaving it trailing. Not a car for me thanks!
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Duel carriageway (sic) how very apt!
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absolutely nothing to do with trying to keep up with america and their love affair with "trucks". they do that for their own politics of envy.
You miss the point mate. The US makers kicked off the market over there and then the Japanese needed to take a slice so they started making 4x4's. This introduced a much wider range of 4x4's into the UK market (previously it was only Land Rovers or Range Rovers - nothing in the middle). Then other variants came in to fill the gaps (soft roaders etc).
It had everything to do with the US market. I was at Rover and driving a RR as a company car when this was going on! - this was around and shortly after the introduction of the Disco (mainly intro'd to catch a slice of the US market).
The guys marketing the Disco were surprised how well it sold in UK and put it down to association with royaly, aristocracy and horses/shooting etc - the RR had a good chunk of that market. All the early advertsing for the Disco placed it in 'country house' type environments.
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The guys marketing the Disco were surprised how well it sold in UK and put it down to association with royaly, aristocracy and horses/shooting etc - the RR had a good chunk of that market. All the early advertsing for the Disco placed it in 'country house' type environments.
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and which, my dear matey the righteous one, of course proves your point that these royalty, aristocracy, horses/shooting, country-house etc. are all to with the usa and absolutely nothing to do the uk's "politics/psychology of envy". nothing contradictory in either of your posts at all. i am totally confused not.
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and which, my dear matey the righteous one, of course proves your point that these royalty, aristocracy, horses/shooting, country-house etc. are all to with the usa and absolutely nothing to do the uk's "politics/psychology of envy". nothing contradictory in either of your posts at all. i am totally confused not.
Again you miss the point. I am trying to explain that the reason that these vehciles made it into production in the first place was down to the US market - that's where the initial demand was. Their sales success in the UK was more of an "accident".
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tunacat - you got it perfectly. the reason why any consumer society where there is a "choice" buys a particular expensive product over another cheaper yet completely adequate for the purpose product is down to: "politics" or "psychology" of envy.
I think you have something of an obsession with 'politics of envy'.
I any market, one product will be the cheapest. To charge more the other suppliers must offer something better - the product must be better designed, more efficient etc etc - i.e. the 'added value' is in the design.
If I see two washing machines and one costs more than the other then I'll only think about paying the higher price if it performs better. I'll then consider whether the extra performance I get is worth the extra money. 'Envy' doesn't come into it. This can be applied to pretty much any manufactured product - but tends to go a bit wrong when applied to fashion items because a lot of illogical emotion comes into play. This is why kids pay £90 for a pair of trainers that fall apart in 3 weeks.
The snag with the 4x4 is that the only things it does better than a 'normal' car and going off road and (generally) towing. Everything else it does worse - i.e. in most respects its a less optimal design than a 'normal' car.
The only conceivable reason for most (i.e. non-off roaders, non-towers) buying one is that it is 'fashionable'.
I suspect the only drivers who are 'envious' of a 4x4 driver are drivers of other 'lesser' 4x4's who have a similar mindset.
If I see a bloke get out of a 4x4 then I'm not in the least envious - I just regard him as someone who's not really interested in cars and a bit of fashion victim - like the kid who pays £90 for a pair of trainers. No one who's really interested in autotive engineering and who likes to enjoy driving would buy one - you can have much more driving fun in a Mondeo.
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Tocharge more the other suppliers must offer something better - the product must be better designed, more efficient etc etc - i.e. the 'added value' is in the design. If I see two washing machines and one costs more than the other then I'll only think about paying the higher price if it performs better. I'll then consider whether the extra performance I get is worth the extra money. 'Envy' doesn't come into it. This can be applied to pretty much any manufactured product - but tends to go a bit wrong when applied to fashion items because a lot of illogical emotion comes into play. This is why kids pay £90 for a pair of trainers that fall apart in 3 weeks.
I agree, except to say that even when applying your 'logic' rather than emotion, the emotion still plays a big part - if I wanted a RR Sport I'm sure I could come up with a logical argument!
In fact the whole market economy thing depends on a 'consumer society' in which 99% of the things 99% of us buy are more than we need. I think Ford Ka's and Mao boiler suits have already been mentioned.
The idea that some people have that others will think more of them if they are driving an Audi or BMW than say a Ford or Mondeo is really odd - the corollary to this is that they would look up to someone driving a still better car, but I can't believe they do, any more than I think "ooh I wish I was like him" when somebody I don't know drives by in a Porsche, or even an Mercedes E-class - I might fancy the car, but it doesn't confer any special characteristic on the driver - except that he might have more money than sense (which is where we came in I think). But that's only from my point of view - my colleague can't understand why I spent £20k on a car when £10,000 would do the job, so in her view I have more money than sense too!
They want a RR Sport, good luck to them - they might not be the type of people I want to spend an evening in the pub with, but it's legal and if we want a free country in which to pursue our interests, we should let them follow theirs.
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If anyone feels anoyed with their choice of vehicle then console yourselves that a least they bought the britsh made RRS and in turn contribute a profit to Ford to keep you lot in your beloved (but loss making) Mondeo TDCIs...
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A lot of posts seem to have been deleted. I can't remember what they said but there's a lot of bile, some of it barely sane, on this thread.
You may not fancy a Jeep Cherokee as your ideal urban runabout, but why do you care so much when others do?
Personally I don't find these things get in the way any more than anything else. A really carp driver can take up an HGV space with his Fiat Punto or similar, and there are plenty of them.
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