Things have changed drastically since my days astride two wheels.
Faster machines, fairings, anti-drop bars, leathers, helmets, 24 hr. headlamps.
But still riders cannot keep them upright.
Despite extensive publicity N. Yorks. again hit over the Bank Holiday with 3 fatal road accidents where riders have gone to meet their Maker.
What to do to stop this carnage?
Ban them?
Restrict engine size?
Requirement for all riders to be of Advanced Standard?
Two wheels prohibited and only trikes allowed?
Draconian enforcement - any thing illegal and vehicle confiscated?
Must be an answer somewhere. What is yours?
DVD
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Mandatory advanced driver training (e.g. how to handle at high speed; correct road position) for anything 600cc or over.
A significant number of accidents happen to the 30+ age bracket -who are re-visiting their yoof on much faster machines.
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...or should that be advanced rider training ?
Can't really drive a bike. ;-]
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If you make things safer, people just increase there risk taking to reach the same equillibrium, and in fact are very good at calculating the danger, all animals have a sort of risk barometer.
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Not wishing to appear flippant, but I think the answer is, they are inherently more vulnerable and there are bound to be accidents.
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I think there was a MAG rally in North Yorks over the weekend. More bikes out than normal (yes there mosts certainly was) and a noticable plod presence.
Bikes sales have gone through the roof again, lots more on the road.
I'd think the only way to reduce bike accidents on bank holiday weekends is to do a rain dance.
I was out there as well, found all the back roads, hardly saw a car all weekend.
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That's true to an extent Frostbite but given that they are inherently more vulnerable you'd have thought they'd be a bit more careful and not do the sort of crazy things we all see on a routine basis - you know wheelies, excessive acceleration, serious speeding, weaving in/out of traffic etc.
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BTW some months ago I posted here about a very near miss with a speeding bike (IIRC the thread was eventually deleted due largely to some rather childish 'contributions' from other posters). Just a couple of weeks later at the very same junction there was a fatal accident which I subsequently learned involved a middle aged man on a high powered bike who ploughed into the side of a car exiting the junction. I don't know if it was the same guy but it does seem to me that more publicity needs to be given to the rising number of biker deaths on our roads and the factors which contibuted to those deaths.
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I'm with you DVD but sadly I don't think there's any easy/ acceptable answer to this problem other than educating riders as to how dangerous certain antics can be. Having said that I'm sure for a proportion of riders it is a carving for thrills and danger which is responsible for their behaviour.
I'd be interested to know what age groups the riders killed were. When I was in my teens loads of kids got injured or killed (including 2 of my friends) riding high powered bikes. I suppose you could put that down to inexperience and the arrogance of youth but now it seems that a whole new generation of middle aged men are doing the same and they really should know better. Not only should their experience of life tell but I'd have thought the fact that most have families and dependents would focus their minds on staying safe.
On Monday there must have been some sort of bikers rally near here because the local main roads echoed all day with the sound of high powered machines screaming along at ridiculous speeds, their riders recklessly endangering themselves and other road users. I'd defend anyone's right to have a motorbike (I had one once) and race it to their heart's content on private ground but do think that something must be done to address what seems to be a growing problem. Perhaps thrills are harder to find on 4 wheels now so bikes have become the chosen means by which to get that high. I don't know.
BTW, before anyone starts accusing me of being anti biker - everything I've said applies just as much to reckless car drivers if not more.
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Some bikers just need to remember that if you hit anything it will hurt! Like the one the other week, typical country lane linking Baildon with Menston W Yorkshire. Undulating with bends. Went round one bend which goes over the brow of a hill to be confronted by a biker on my side of the road overtaking a car which was going through a bend - just missed the front of my car.
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When I was in my teens loads of kids got injured or killed riding high powered bikes.
Is this where we do the gag about what a high powered bike was when volvoman was a teenager, not much grip from solid rubber tyres etc ;-)
Better training would be good, but for £3000 these days you can be on the road on something that can accelerate faster than a McLaren F1 road car so perhaps it's best to ge the final part of motorcycle training to include making a will.
Gareth
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Nice Gareth :)
When I was biking in the late 70's kids could ride a 250 on an L plate with no other training whatsoever. The chosen machine was the 2 stroke Yamaha RD 250 but I stuck with my trusted Honda CB250 which was still quick. The friends I mentioned graduated immediately from 250's onto much higher powered machines. One was killed (and his girlfriend lost her legs) riding a Suzuki 650 and my best pal was killed on a Kawasaki Z900. Both were just in their 20's at the time and both were speeding.
What a waste !!
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Volvoman probably has a point.
Most of the born-again bikers will have a car as well but car driving has become boring at 70mph, and a bike at 70 feels so much faster than that compared to a car.
Law of unintended consequences perhaps?
Stop people driving cars safely at 90, so they kill themselves on a bike at 70?
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Perhaps offering an organ donor card with every bike sale might focus a few minds a little more! I think the australians did an ad to that effect - ride like prat, be an organ donor.
Perhaps all those riders of a certain age should be offered additional training. They'll all think they don't need it until they're getting scraped up off the road. Most bikers killed (about 2/3rds according to some estimates) are killed by other vehicles pulling out of junctions into their path so I think other vehicle drivers also need to be targetted. A lot of the other third are killed without involving any other vehicle.
teabelly
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I believe, Teabelly, that in the (hospital) trade, motorcyclists are known as 'donors'.
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Other vehicle drivers have already been targeted to an extent - the 'now you see him' ad for example. We're constantly bombarded by adverts on the TV telling us to use our mirrors, don't drink and drive, kill your speed etc. To be honest I'm not sure it makes much difference anymore.
I'm for advanced training for all bikers (new and current) with bikes over Xcc's. Of course you can't guarentee that people will actually apply what they've learnt to thier normal riding.
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I think a big part of the problem is the very rapid acceleration bikes are capable of. Making allowances for what a biker might do is made all the more difficult by the fact that they can (and often do) hit 60-70 mph in just a couple of seconds and suddenly appear from nowhere from around a bend, over a hill or whatever. In towns there are relatively few places where normal cars can get to those speeds even if there are no other vehicles impeding their progress. No so with motorbikes.
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Tend to agree with you OP.
"You're going to die a horrible painful death, coughing your guts up, cancerous cells invading your mortal soul, and take some innocent passive smokers to meet their maker along the way" stuck on fag packets, and any amount of truly revolting photos in public circulation, doesn't stop those who chose to from smoking.
What hope therefore has any amount of 'education' and warning got of improving bike riding standards any more than it has of improving often more woeful driving standards?
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I do about 15,000 miles per year by bike, well over 200,000 miles in the last 15 years.
A few things strike me:
Car drivers do not see bikes - part of the poor observation syndrome generally.
Roads are becoming more dangerous due to bus lanes and traffic calming engineering. Narrower lanes, more islands, enlarged islands, speed humps, odd angles on kerbs, cobblestone-type bits as you turn off main roads into side streets, etc. etc.
The state of the roads is deteriorating rapidly. Pot holes and tramlines don't affect a car too seriously, but on a bike they can be deadly. Roads are not swept like they used to be, so if you get off the usual line the grit etc. can be like driving on ice.
OK, some bikers do not enamour themselves to other road users. Wheelies, loud exhausts, 12,000 rpm up the high street, poor overtaking and suchlike do not help their case, but survival is becoming more difficult due to external forces which are being imposed on bikers with little thought for their particular needs.
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When I'm on the bike, I'm constantly being passed by other riders. Much is due to my inexperience but some riding is just plain dangerous. Eductating the car driver is a waste of time. There are too many of them to start with and it's easy to forget other road users when you are coccooned in your tin box with the climate control running and the stereo playing Def Leppard or whatever, and the full knowledge that 53 airbags will jump out and cushion you if you whack anything over parking speed. Target the bikers; they are the vulnerable ones but I don't know where this lack of respect for your own mortality comes in. I've never hung around with bikers much so I can't see which gene is missing that results in you wanting to do 110 mph round a blind bend. I had a fantastic challenging first ride out on Sunday with the local IAM group but I don't think any of us did anything literally death defying.
How's this for starters;
1 restrict bikes for those who pass their full test to 500cc and 50bhp and 80 mph speed limiter.
2 Mandatory IAM or RoSPA test in addition to DVLA test.
3 GPS control of bikes' speed in 40 mph or lower limits
Hawkeye
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Stranger in a strange land
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Like Volvoman, I spent time in late 70's on a Kawasaki 250 and experienced the highs and lows of biking.
IMHO, I sincerely believe that this was the best training for driving a car, particularly with regards to anticipation.
Because you're that much more vulnerable you develop a heightened sense of awareness which thankfully hasn't quite departed.
I'd like everyone doing the car test to be taken out on a motorcyle with a comms set and see things from a motorcyclists perspective, might have a damn sight more impact that TV ads.
Have to agree that those bikers who appear to have a deathwish do unduly influence the public's perception of biking.
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Some interesting ideas here, all involving another erosion of freedom for someone.
Everything we do has a risk associated with it. In Britain, 600 people a year die falling down their stairs. Should we force everyone to live in bungalows? Should we make everyone stay in bed? But 60 people a year die either falling out of bed or electrocuted by bedside lamps/radios, etc.
We cannot take all the risk out of life, but there is a balance to be struck. In the case of middle-aged bikers, etc, they have the choice. I agree that when the slaughtered were 17 year olds who really didn't know better, something had to be done; now I'm not so sure.
I don't know if I sound callous, but I must say that we would consider it ridiculous if the government tried to ban two-storey houses to save a few lives. Why don't we consider restriction of drivers/riders freedoms in the same way?
I speak as an ex-biker (ex-courier, no less) and a current driver (dealing with serious depression after an accident last September). I still have pleanty of time to fall down the stairs, of course.
V
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Same problem in the USA.
Daytona Bikers week brings out thousands of motorcyclists. They are invariably past the first flush of youth and ride HDs. Now when I have seen them they ride sedately and yet there are always great many accidents during this period.
Below are the observations of a 21 year old student.
"It was 'Bike Week' in central Florida this spring break, and fortunately the hordes of intoxicated and lecherous co-eds were duly replaced by scores and scores of intoxicated and lecherous middle-aged bikers.
I think that bikers and I would really get along after a while. They seem to share the same general disregard for traffic laws that most 21-year-old drivers do, as witnessed by 13 biker casualties during the festivities and the fact that anywhere people aren't actively obstructing their path is considered roadway - on the beach, the space between lanes on interstate highways, small children. So I think we could talk about traffic violations for a good hour before they string me up."
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I echo many of the sentiments here as well. I think the long and short of it is that if bikers ride their bikes as if they were in a car ie. keep in traffic flow, no silly over/undertaking, no squeezing between vehicles etc then they will stand a better chance.
There will always be casualties, the biker will always come off worse, thats a fact of life. Its all about minimising the risk (as in anything we do on a daily basis).
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Its all about minimising the risk (as in anything we do on a daily basis).
I thought that risk was a big part of the thrill men get from their motorbikes?
Fast cars, fast bikes, potholing, you name it: there seems to be no end to the list of risky things which men seem to love doing. If it wasn't for us women to say "no" so often to these things, I wonder whether there'd be many men surviving into old age
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we dont, men die earlier than women, perhaps if they kept saying no less often we might live longer.......
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As a driver and rider, I consider that some (not all) of the blame lies with the government's fixation with speed as the primary cause of death. Driving and riding standards have fallen, and the most vulnerable will be the first to suffer.
I was nearly knocked off my bike yesterday by yet another mum with child in rear yacking on her mobile phone.
I have done 3 advanced driving courses - roughly one every 6-7 years since passing my test. Every one was worth while, and I learned new things every time.
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I forgot some of my pet gripes which particularly affect the biker ...
1. Increase in painted roadmarkings everywhere (very slippery when wet, especially on bends)
2. People driving less than 2 seconds from the vehicle in front
3. Increase in diesel on the road (again very slippery)
4. Drain covers on bends in roads
5. Huge potholes
6. 'Traffic calming' which involves chicanes - bikers have no windscreen wipers and they can be hard to see in the rain/dark.
I'm not yet ready to give up biking, but it might be different if I had young children.
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Marlot I relate.
A fascinating thread. That report also received a lot of exposure where I live.
Ban bikes? Bring in more laws to restrict them? Oh boy more job ads for Nannies in the Grauniad! What next? Well actually mountaineering is a bit dangerous so I think we ought to do something about that, oh and while we're at it shouldn't beds have some kind of railings round them to stop people falling out?.......
Man (for which read woman also) will always want to explore his limits and will as a result from time to time suffer the inevitable consequences of misjudging that process. Be it on motorbikes or in canoes or jet-skis or just falling off the ladder repainting the living room for the Ma-in-law's visit. Were that not the case we would all still be living in caves trying to make fire with pointed sticks.
I know someone who attends accidents is surely going to tell me yeah mate but I have to wipe 'em off the road for a living.
Well, you took the job, mate. Deal with it.
In my bike community I am quite a bit involved with training and ride discipline. You may perhaps (if you had the patience) have seen what my partner recently underwent and posted about.
Please no more laws telling us what we can and can't do for own well-being. You're just keeping all those Brussels seat warmers in their fat inflation proof pension funds.
Make sure training has a much higher profile in bike rider licensing. Not just handling your machine but attitude training. No one should get a licence without going though an MSF or equivalent course. Modern machines have enormous power to weight ratios and most make Porsches look like pussies. Enter the gonad factor. Disasters are going to happen. A whole lot more people in Ethiopia are starving....
When my partner went through her recent MSF Course I was intrigued to note the amount of time spent on road and riding attitude (quote). Encourage organised riding with competent and qualified ride managers. Look to Harley riders for that and believe me despite the wild man image you will find they are among the most responsible bikers. Look to Hog riders for best practice.
I know you have a fast bike and you want to nail it. The road isn't the place. Track days are where you grind those chicken strips. You can really get your knee down without having to get your Black and Decker out to sand your knee pads to impress the boys. Get your mates together and organise blasts. We do it where I live. Everyone with a mind to can have a go and if you fall off there is care and attention available. Not that it's ever been needed so far as I recall.
Clearly the authorities in UK have to stop people doing daft stuff on public roads on motorcycles for the benefit of everyone. But do so with intelligence, sensitivity, understanding. Don't bring in more laws which require more resources to enforce so that when my sister in Lancing reports her house has been burgled she gets put on hold......."your call is important to us.........."
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I think some of Marlots points do relate to cars as well.Even though he probably didnt realise.
Clearly the authorities in UK have to stop people doing daft stuff on public roads on motorcycles for the benefit of everyone. But do so with intelligence, sensitivity, understanding. Don't bring in more laws which require more resources to enforce so that when my sister in Lancing reports her house has been burgled she gets put on hold......."your call is important to us.........."
it seems to come down to competence ie has the rider had any training of which you made the point.I have heard arguments between riders as to how fast they can get to a certain place.I am inclined to think it is a case of the few make it bad for the best/rest.the problem seems to be increasing with riders in and around my area doing 80/90 mph without helmets in 30 mph zones.so I dont think it is a reflection on the old school.your last point resources we dont have the police we used to.come to your own conclusion of that?
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Growler hits the nail pretty much on the head for me, well said.
A big part of the problem, especially with middle aged persons either returning to biking or starting afresh is the race rep culture that dominates the scene nowadays. MCN and a lot of the monthlys devote pages to slagging of the latest XYZ1000 because it only does 182.6mph compared to the ZYX900 which can do 182.9mph. They run articles telling you that you to can "Ride Like A God" if only you learn to do wheelies and stoppies, and you keep practising getting your knee down on roundabouts.
A couple of years ago MCN ran a feature on a group of riders who regularly go across the pond with the mission to maintain the highest possible average speed while out of the way the British police and any chance of a ban. The article went on to quote average speeds of over 130mph for long stretches of the route, with the group sometimes reaching 170 plus. The writer's admiration for these dangerous looneys was evident throughout the feature. Wonder what he would have thought if his wife/mum/daughter had to use the same roads at the same time.
Bikes are as safe as you make them when you are holding the bars, unfortunately the gullable and fashion concious wannabes who ride machines capable of speeds which are suicidal on public roads will always hit the headlines and present the policians with their instant soundbite opportunities.
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The attached was recently posted by the webmaster of my local site.
It might add some perspective.
www.motorcyclephilippines.com/pages/Myths.html
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"..no end to the list of risky things which men seem to love doing"
Just as well, or none of us would get married! :-)
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if bikers ride their bikes as if they were in a car ie. keep in traffic flow, no silly over/undertaking, no squeezing between vehicles etc then they will stand a better chance.
I've got to pull up BobbyG on this - nobody buys a bike to sitin traffic with all the other stationary cars. Who told me this? A traffic policeman who was told by the DVLA.
Filtering is legal in the UK (but isn't in the US) and it seems that some car drivers do feel angry about this. Some car drivers activly blocking a motorcyclist from legal filtering is not uncommon.
As Growler and others have stated, it's a risk - there are lots around. The motorcylcist is resposible for his own safety and I think most accept this.
Gareth
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Filtering (lane-splitting we call it here) is the whole purpose. I'm ahead of him and I'm gone I'm not holding the guy behind up like I would be if I was in a car in front of him. He should be glad of that.
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We could always accept the fact that some things are just dangerous.
We will never acheive total safety unfortunately :( Whizzing around at 70mph on a 2 wheeled vehicle is never, ever going to be 100% safe. Doing the same in a car isn't, either come to mention it.
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The throttle works BOTH ways!
Life for those who spill diesel.
Regards.
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My theory on biking in Britain is that due to the pathetic weather, most bikers are "sunday bikers", they have fast race replica bikes which are cossetted for 8 months of the year, and only come out on sunny sunday afternoons when their owners want to test their capabilities to the full. Because of this, many people's perception of bikers is tainted by this image.
If more people rode bikes all year round (as i used to when commuting into Nottingham city centre) then more bikes would be on the road and car drivers would get used to seeing more bikes on the road. I think this would (a) change people's attitude towards bikers (providing they accept that filtering IS legal!) and (b) reduce the rate of bike accidents (research has been done to indicate that car drivers failing to see bikes can be attributed to the fact that they just don't expect to see bikes, so the brain just doesn't register them).
In addition to this, city centres would become less congested, parking would be less of a problem and pollution would dramatically increase. I think the government should be actively encouraging the use of motorcycles for these reasons.
Also, whilst riding a bike in pouring rain is far from enjoyable, I used to be able to get home in 30 mins on the bike, compared to 60+ mins by car. A weeks fuel cost me £6 on the bike, £18 in the car. Parking cost £1 a day on the bike, £7 a day in the car.
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Owen's point about more bikes leading to better awareness by car drivers is valid.
In London other drivers DO seem to be more aware of bikes and generally give them room to go on their way. (Although there is always the blind minority who will turn right or do a u-turn without checking their mirrors or indicating).
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?but now it seems that a whole new generation of middle aged men are doing the same and they really should know better. Not only should their experience of life tell but I'd have thought the fact that most have families and dependents would focus their minds on staying safe.?
Well put Volvoman. Were it not so, there would be ten times the number of born again bikers on the road, me included.
And I find Growlers earlier post is 98% right for me too.
Much good comment here, my perception (as an ex-motorcyclist) was always that if you can survive the first month (many don?t) then you are in with a chance until complacency sets in. If you survive that one big accident (In my imagination probably 80% will have one) then you can look forward to a more normal attrition rate (albeit higher than motoring).
I think that will not apply today to those middle aged starters and returners because they are not on the road all the time, lack the intuition and intimate experience that all year round riding gives you and are basically thrill seeking. There is no doubt that motorcycling is inherently dangerous, that people should be allowed to take those risks and that training is at least part of the answer.
Training can only be of so much use though and when faced with an immovable object while doing 60 MPH the manoeuvring characteristics of two wheels are limited. It?s that knowledge that keeps me on four wheels.
End of the road for motor cycles? No, just some motorcyclists as always.
(For the record my bikes were: Suzi GT250X7, YAM RD350LC, SR500 + some rat bikes- late 70?s to early 80?s)
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Car drivers in France are made aware that they normally take the rap if they hit a cyclist or moped. Coupled with the fact that many more of them ride or have ridden a moped, its a much more pleasant experience for bikers.
I guess the weather makes it impractical to force all UK drivers to pass a moped test first, but that's what I'd like!
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In London other drivers DO seem to be more aware of bikes and generally give them room to go on their way.
Witness the A40 last night. Nose-to-tail from Paddington to Northolt. Every time a bike came throught it was like watching a zip opening and closing as those on the right edged closer to the central reservation and those on the left headed for the kerb.
Only exception seemed to be builders in Transit vans, usually three abreast in the front seat and seemingly with endless reserves of anger for the world in general and bikes in particular. Saw 4 instances where such vehicles deliberately blocked bikes. Their lives must be so full of joy.....
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I regularly use the A40 out of London and, as you say, most cars leave 2 wide gaps between the 3 lanes for bikes.
The problem comes when a biker decides that the other bikes in these gaps aren't going fast enough for him and cuts to the extreme outside or inside and tries to 'intimidate' you to pull towards the centre - thus closing the gap for the other(slow) bikers.
Whilst the majority of bikers are satisfied to make good progress there are some real cowboys to be seen - often having some sort of competition to get through the traffic quickest. The speeds they reach are amazing and they practice their stoppies at the frequent S**** Cameras.
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