The Speed Camera Thread - Volume 16 - Dynamic Dave

THREAD CLOSED, PLEASE CONTINUE DISCUSSION IN

"The Speed Camera Thread - Volume 17"


www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=18579


For the continued discussion of all things pertaining to Speed Cameras.

Volume Fifteen filled up.

This is Volume 16, 15 is closed.

There is no need to repeat anything since earlier volumes will not be deleted, although I am quite sure that this will not stop you.


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Dynamic Dave
Back Room Moderator

mailto:dave_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
Ministers challenge - midlifecrisis
With reference to the article on this site, challenging the ABD tp prove that speed cameras have only been installed in accident blackspots. As a Traffic Officer, I recently challenged those responsible in my Force about the positioning of newly installed cameras. They have been put in positions where I know for a fact that no accidents have happened. The response was that the 'insert road number here' has had a number of serious accidents in the last three years. I then pointed out that the road is around 40 miles long, but no specific point is a 'blackspot'. Certainly the places where the cameras have been installed are definitely not blackspots.
I have also witnessed civilian admin workers altering accident reports, changing the conclusion from actual cause to 'excess speed'. When challenged they replied, "it looks better on the stats". I raised this with a senior officer, but never heard anything again.
It is true that there are lies, damned lies and statistics.
P.S. If anybody from the ABD wants to contatct me through this site, I'll tell them where the cameras are.
Ministers challenge - nick
This is very disconcerting news, midlife, if this is widespread it makes a mockery of the stats.
Unfortunately, to get this properly looked at would mean you putting your head above the parapet and probably losing your job. How depressing.
Ministers challenge - eMBe {P}
The article MLF refers to is
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/index.htm?news_id=1223

I have referenced it to help trace it when the article inevitable disappears down the page.

I think this a goldenb opportunity for anyone amongst us who sees a yellow GATSO, which we believe is inappropriately located, to be reported.

Here is daft suggestion : As for the specific one in MLF's case, how about him telling HJ or Mark or DD or ND the details, and then one of them reporting the offending camera to ABD.
Ministers challenge - Thommo
MLF,

Put your head down as suggested. If you try and stand against these n***s you will lose your job and possibly your pension. The chief constable of Durham is already coming under heavy shelling ( and I assume you are not a chief constable).

Leave it to us we will respond.

Regards,

Thommo.
Ministers challenge - SteveH42
I think this a goldenb opportunity for anyone amongst us who
sees a yellow GATSO, which we believe is inappropriately
located, to be reported.


Well, that covers most of the ones in Stockport, including one positioned on a bend such that if anyone does trip it, they deserve to be done for dangerous driving rather than speeding...

However, the main thought I had here was: Weren't all new installations supposed to be yellow / visible cameras? I've noticed that Tameside have recently installed quite a few new cameras, all grey and replaced several existing cameras, again with mostly grey apart from the ones near vegetation which are green. Surely at best this is against the spirit of thing, especially as a number of these are in locations where they aren't really appropriate anyway - long, straight roads outside of towns with a 40 limit for example.
Ministers challenge - teabelly
The safespeed website has an anonymous submission mechanism so you could tell all on there. There seem to be quite a few letters from police officers and magistrates so you would be in good company :-)
teabelly
Ministers challenge - Armitage Shanks{P}
I would certainly like to tell someone about mis-placed optical devices in Lincolnshire. The County has an unenviable record of death and injuries this year and many of the devices are sited on wide downhill parts of the dual carriageway A1 in the county. One or two I am aware of certainly are at potentially very serious accident spots. I think a map of the county showing red for fatal accidents and yellow for optical devices would not produce many instances of the colours occuring in one place!
Ministers challenge - BobbyG
A couple of years ago, North Lanarkshire Council joined the scheme whereby they entered this "partnership" that they receive income from the scameras.
One was positioned in Bellshill and I queried why, of all the roads around, did they position it in the one area where there was no housing, no schools and an underpass for pedestrians!
I was told that they had to put one up as part of the initiative and this stretch of the road had the worst accident rate in the area (2 serious accidents).

Now I know for a fact, that one of those accidents involved a police car travelling to a 999 call and crashing on the wrong side of the road!!!!

Does that justify it? Also, am I very cynical why the bypass it leads to is always closed for maintenace and therefore the traffic is diverted along the speed camera road!!
Ministers challenge - Flat in Fifth
In putting my 2p into this thread I could point out that in the same force area as MLC the council justified reducing a limit and putting SCP into action because of an accident involving TWOCer's under pursuit.

As the county road safety officer said "well one could say it was due to excess speed but even I think that is stretching the point a little!"


Ministers challenge - tunacat
And NoDosh expresses a kind of surprise at "regular people condoning and cheering the destruction of speed detection equipment"...!! (anarchy in the uk thread)

Who are the REAL perverters of justice?!
Ministers challenge - SR
No, Thommo - don't put words into others' mouths. My point is that you can't blame cameras for what happens elsewhere. The one common factor in all locations is drivers. The answer is for drivers to obey the rules and not cause the problem in the first place, so no need for cameras or any other type of enforcement.

No comment about why people have to be killed or injured before it's allowed to be defined as a blackspot?

tunacat,

You can quote a coupe of sites where they haven't - not exactly representative. I could quote a couple where they have - neither point applies universally. However, it's a fact that if accident rates have gone up generally, you can't automatically assume they have at all camera sites, so the cameras have been ineffective.

I'm not saying you can predict blackspots, but what's wrong with trying to prevent anywhere becoming one, and people being injured or killed in the process?

The point is that cameras should never have been used to control speed at certain locations only - it's drivers who are the problem, not the locations. The easiest way to prevent any location becoming an accident blackspot because of speeding is for drivers not to speed. If camera locations were not known, and the cameras themselves not obvious, they would be more effective. There should be no need to spend £30,000 of taxpayers money every 50 yards to stop people speeding.

While cameras are so obvious, anyone caught by them is either not paying attention or is just plain stupid. Either way, they deserve what they get.

It's obvious who the real "perverters of justice" are. Who's breaking the law - simple!
Ministers challenge - tunacat
There should be no need to spend £30,000 of taxpayers money every 50 yards to stop people speeding."

Agreed, but something like that would be necessary to completely eradicate it. Much of the 'general level of speeding' is not causing further accidents (merely raising revenue), so that course of action is not necessary. Instead, place cameras at blackspots where speeding IS the cause of accidents. I don't know of anyone who's got a problem with that. But clearly in many parts of the country this is blatantly NOT where they are placed. Why can 'they' not provide a straightforward answer to explain this?

If 'they' are really concerned totally with safety, why oh why should this be a slippery issue?

1) Remove the cameras from wide open stretches of unpopulated rural dual carriageways and the like
2) Install cameras at, and only at, ALL the known accident blackspots

Then let the public openly see the figures for the rates of accidents both at these blackspots, and generally.

If, as I believe we both think and hope, the rates decrease, cameras' true usefulness will have been proved and public faith restored.

Ah, what a blessed relief. Perhaps then we could all stop arguing the toss about the subject and get back to making good progress on trunk roads whilst concentrating on the road ahead instead of our speedos, even if it means we might at times go a few mph faster than what somebody somewhere decreed was the 'limit'.
Ministers challenge - SR
tunacat,

Why should cameras have to be used to indicate an accident blackspot? If there is a problem in a particular location, there are a number of options that can be used. These include physical changes to the layout of the road or junction, increased advance warning signs, road markings, lane restrictions, etc. One of the options that can be used in conjunction with these is the reduction of the speed limit on that stretch of road, and this is clearly posted using a type of sign that everyone is familiar with. This should be enough to alert anyone to the danger - so why should we have to spend further taxpayers money to force people to actually take notice and slow down? It's the careless drivers who cause the original problem, so why should they be allowed to ignore the warnings unless we spend another chunk of taxpayers' money putting up a camera?

James Jameson,

I do not dispute that there are other types of driver and offence that need to be addressed. However, this does not justify ignoring speed as an issue. Why should one offence be ignored just to suit those who happen to be guilty of that offence?

Many other offences cannot be detected by technology, so it makes sense to use technology where appropriate and free up other resources to address the other offences. However, unless someone is doing something obvious wrong the police can't do anything about it without random checks on licences, insurance, etc., and the civil liberties groups would be all over that like a rash.

To use your own logic - if you think that speeding up from some unknown previous speed will reduce accidents, feel free to explain how..... Don't you think that exactly the same "drugged hooden yob" and "driver of uninsured car with no MOT in a dangerous condition" will take advantage of the additional freedom? Would you be happy for these people to be driving around even faster than they do now?


If everyone is so worried about the revenue-rasing activities associated with cameras, why don't they just stick to the limit and remove the revenue stream completely? Is that too simple? Are they too stupid? If the cameras are highly-visible and their locations widely known, and they still manage to get caught, they deserve it.
Ministers challenge - BrianW
On the topic:
Last year three cameras were installed in Ferry Lane, Walthamsow/Tottenham on a half mile stretch, two in one direction and one in the other.
The road between them runs between a reservoir and a railway line, so absolutely NO chance of joining traffic or pedestrians.
One I can fully justify and have no problem with as it is on the approach to a couple of car parks/trading estate entrances, although accidents have continued unabated despite the camera, so the problem seems to be lack of observation and not speed per se.
One is at the other end where you leave the unobstructed stretch. The road is about fifty feet wide with a ten foot wide hatched line central reservation. You would have to try really hard to hit anything there.
The third is as you join the "unroofed tunnel". Ansolutely no justification and the speed limit could easily be raised to 40mph, 30 and a camera is just an annoyance and everybody accelerates to 40 once past the camera anyway.
That last one must be a sure candidate for scrapping.
Ministers challenge - James_Jameson
If anyone thinks that "slowing down" from some unknown previous speed would reduce accidents (somehow), then think about this:

what type of driver do you think is mainly being caught by speed cameras?

The driver of the uninsured car with no MOT in a dangerous condition, the drugged hooden yob etc etc?

No, the man (or woman) most likely to be caught is statistically the safest driver, i.e. with least accidents to his or her name, aged between 45 and 55, married, living outside London and an executive or other professional.

The revenue-hungry authorities have, of course, got it wrong and their propaganda is not believable.

If they wish to reduce accidents they need to completely ignore speed and look at othger causes, but of course that's more difficult and doesn't fit nicely into a one-line easily-remembered solution. Oh, and there's no revenue to be had.
Ministers challenge - SafeSpeed
Midlife,

I beg you - please get in touch.

I can get this information taken notice of at the highest level.

You can email me at psmith@safespeed.org.uk

On the front page of the Safe Speed web site (2nd group down on the left) you'll find links for anonymous submissions and postal address etc.

I'll email you a phone number by return if you would like to ring.

Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
Ministers challenge - matt35 {P}
Midlife,

Your post might cause you problems if your boss identifies you, but if he has any real interest in road safety, you should be promoted for your comments.

Any law which generates so much discussion and controversy is clearly unpopular or, quite simply, wrong, for the purpose it was intended.

That the driving public find themselves {more} alienated from the Traffic Police serves neither you or us.

I applaud your guts!

Matt35

Ministers challenge - BrianW
"That the driving public find themselves {more} alienated from the Traffic Police serves neither you or us."

Trouble is, it's not just traffic police, it rubs off on the whole force.
When you see a blue light behind you don't know if it's Traffic who've spotted a tail light out on your car and is going to pull you on that excuse and then see what else they can find, or if it's your friendly neighbourhood beat bobby.

Ministers challenge - Mark (RLBS)
Midlife,

If you wish, e-mail me. I will pass it on anonymously to Paul Smith.
Ministers challenge - midlifecrisis
Thanks for the offer, but I've been in touch directly.
Ministers challenge - Vin {P}
"When you see a blue light behind you don't know if it's Traffic who've spotted a tail light out on your car and is going to pull you on that excuse and then see what else they can find"

Well, I beg your pardon, but that is EXACTLY what I do want. If you watch "Traffic Cops" for any length of time, it's just that sort of thing that leads them to (in one case) a drug bust. I want hundreds of Traffic Police on the roads, stopping all the lunatics that I see every day, stopping the people I see undertaking in driving rain on the M3, the people tailgating, the people overtaking on blind bends, the drivers who feel it's Ok to intimidate others.

And yes, they might stop you for a tail light, but if you're polite and reasonable, you'll probably go home a free man. I've told three people their brake lights were out in the past year or so. They all replied "Yeah, I know": They really didn't care. Perhaps with that lack of respect for the law they are the sort of people who might just be prepared to break others.

I hate the fact that there are fewer Traffic Police than before. I've been stopped twice by them, booked once and let off once at 90mph because the motorway was empty, I had my documents and my bike was well-maintained. More power to their elbow.

What I dislike is their replacement by a machine with no judgment and no way of doing anything about the uninsured, untaxed, unlicensed and often banned scrotes pollution our roads: They just MIGHT get stopped for faulty taillights if we had a few more coppers about.

V
Ministers challenge - No Do$h
Hear hear, Vin. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Dear Santa,

I have been a good boy this year and would like more traffic police please.

signed

No Dosh
Aged 33 and 5 months.

ps. Please go past as many speed cameras as possible on Christmas eve so they all run out of film.
Ministers challenge - teabelly
I wonder if some smarty pants with a motorized sleigh would like to give it a go ;-)
teabelly
Ministers challenge - daveyjp
If they are only put in accident blackspots how come the new road which serves Silverstone from the M1 (can't rememebr the no.) has had speed cameras from day one. If a road is brand new how can it have had any accidents?

Conversely the Stanningley bypass in Leeds has had numerous very serious accidents, they put up two cameras in sensible locations on the Leeds bound carriageway, but one has been missing for most of this year - resulting in locals now passing the camera site in excess of 80mph, before slamming on before the next camera!
Ministers challenge - Mark (RLBS)
>>If they are only put in accident blackspots how come the new
>>road which serves Silverstone from the M1 (can't rememebr the
>>no.) has had speed cameras from day one. If a road is brand
>>new how can it have had any accidents?



Going south towards Silverstone from the M1 (its the A43 by the way) there is only one. Its immediately before a junction which crosses right over the A43. Its been there fo a long while and that part of the A43 is nto the new part.

There are two (one each way) on the new part of the A43, but you'd only see these if you were travelling between Silverstone and the M40. They both address the same junction which again crosses completely across the A43.

Whilst that is now a new dual carriageway, it was before a dangerous junciton on a single carriageway.

Of all the stupid cameras around, its difficult to criticise those three.
Ministers challenge - billhol111
hi midlife,

this is not only against the law, it's fraud with pecuniary advantage, The law must prevail. If I can assist ask.



rgds
bill

quote
I have also witnessed civilian admin workers altering accident reports, changing the conclusion from actual cause to 'excess speed'. When challenged they replied, "it looks better on the stats". I raised this with a senior officer, but never heard anything again.


Ministers challenge - bugged {P}
Definatly agree with Vin on that one, yes id like more traffic police as well please, was once with a friend in his subaru impretza, he wasnt speeding and was pulled over by the police who had followed us for a few miles, they told us lots of subarus had been knecked and they were cracking down on it and therefore checked all his details before letting us carry on, we couldnt have been happier! there should be more of this sort of policing.

Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Adam {P}
Hi all,
can someone in the know tell me about the current situation regarding camera vans and police speed traps. That is to say, what are the chances of them being on the drive home etc... Can they only be deployed on accident hotspots? Do they need to be visible?

Many Thanks

Adam.
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After death, hair grows but phone calls tend to taper off
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - corblimeyguvnar
Wherever they feel like, depends on the County, some choose accident blackspots (but all too few), most go for 'fast' roads.
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Drink Lager Talk Piffle
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Dynamic Dave
They're just like the old Martini adverts....

Anytime, anyplace, anywhere.

(ps, This'll get moved to the current "speed camera" thread later today)
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Colin M
Check your local council website, they often list the planned locations of mobile cameras.

Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Adam {P}
Where is this 'current speed camera thread' please? Plus, neither the local council or Merseyside police post any information at all on the whereabouts of the cameras. Incidently, the town I live in has no speed cameras whatsoever! Come for a drive!
--
After death, hair grows but phone calls tend to taper off
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Graham
"what are the chances of them being on the drive home etc"

My current property doesn't have a drive. I guess I'm safe then.
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Dwight Van Driver
Reminds me of the 60's when North Riding took delivery of PETA
(Portable Electronic Traffic Analyser). When first used in anger then we put out advisory boards a mile ahead that there was a speed trap ahead. Guess what. No body took any notice so that went quickly into the WPB.

If the intention is to kerb speeding why advertise?

DVD
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Graham
"kerb speeding "

Nice pun. 8/10
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Wilco {P}
Adski

Have a gander down the page and you'll find a thread called "The Speed Camera Thread" followed by some roman numerals.

Sometimes it drops down the page a bit, but never for long. Not that we go over old ground all the time....
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - jammods
Enjoying the newly resurfaced M180 into Grimsby, I let my guard down on Saturday afternoon and whizzed passed one of the speed vans at a speed of between 80-96mph (i did brake), so I dont know if or at what speed I may have beeen captured at.

I am just waiting for the letter in the next fourteen days.....on my return journey on the Sunday there he was again in the same spot.

I have no complaints it was my fault if I do get them.
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - Algernon
Would the roads not be safer if they let motoring enthusiasts get on according to conditions, rather than try to take all enjoyment out of motoring, thereby dispersing interest and attention, other than that devoted to detecting hostile devices?
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - SR
Was it definitely speed detection, and not an ANPR van?
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - jammods
I'd like to think it was an ANPR but I dont know...... it was a blue transit with orange reflectors and stickers on the side.

Having asked around people seem to believe that there has been a lot of speed detection activity on that stretch of road lately.
Missing thread - Cardew
This new thread was started by CM and it has gone - and not moved to speed camera thread. I got it by pressing the 'Back' button.

Discussion > M'way SPECS & speed limit
Thread Author: CM Replies: 0

View Flat

M'way SPECS & speed limit - CM new Wed 17 Dec 03 16:27

I am not sure of the police's view on speed on motorways (maybe the BR OB can tell) and at what level people are going to be stopped. I always thought that it was higher than the usual 10% +2 (ie 79mph) and this is what kept the roads running smoothly. If we all traveled at 70mph or less then there would be huge congestion.If SPECS are installed presumably everyone will then travel at 70mph. Are the police in favour of SPECS, as we sure aren't going to have an increase in the speed limit on m'ways.(PS did you know that the US @ 65mph has a higher mortality rate than Germany does)

Just puzzled!
Missing thread - No Do$h
Looks like one of us may have slipped on the delete button. It's definitely gone.

FWIW, it would have ended up in the speed camera thread.

{click!}

Like that.
No Dosh
mailto:Alan_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - pdc {P}
The newly resurface M180 into Grimsby made me think my car had a fault the other weekend. The road noise from the tyres was such that I thought the engine was failing.
Camera Vans...boooooooooooo - spinner
The local council/police force should post their use (speed camera van) on their web site.
Fife council only uses mobile units (not fixed cameras) to enforce speed limits. These are usually visible in the hard shoulder; doors open, with a beady red eye/camera fixed on the outside lanes.
There are usually markings on the van to indicate their purpose.

There are also mobile units operating on the M74 - I've gone under bridges with units monitoring traffic speed passing under.

I've never seen these units down South.

The Speed Camera Thread XVI - paula
Leaving myths and urban legends aside.... few people know the extent to which 'new age surveillance' is already here. Camera technology advances almost daily - although soon the whole lot may be rendered obsolete by rfid numberplates - the government will know where every car is all the time and selected roads can be targetted for speed trap action just by pressing buttons on a central computer. Roadside detectors have known positions, cars registered there must have arrived either by road (at an illegal average speed) or flown from the last 'logged' point on another road. Work the rest out for yourselves!! For a summary see a page on a large website cited elsewhere on HJ Forum - www.seered.co.uk - and then click on the "smart card surveillance" page. Some way down this you get to a discussion of microchipped number plates. You don't believe it? Read all the links on this webpage, and then obey the speed limits. Fear of not knowing when you are being watched will be far cheaper than lots of expensive cameras and more effective too...... There is more discussion on the "green camera" thread.
The Speed Camera Thread XVI - Adam {P}
sorry to just backup a bit here and go on about speed camera vans....How come you never see them at night...come to think of it, how come you never see a cop with a laser gun at night? Are they useless in the dark?
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After death, hair grows but phone calls tend to taper off
The Speed Camera Thread XVI - Dwight Van Driver
Think about it Adski..

Dark night, your going along at Warp Factor 3 then suddenly bloke in mainly dark clothing jumps out and points (a gun?) at you. Holy Murphy duck and bang?

For this reason I wouldn't let my troops use in the dark. Wasn't it last year a PC in Margate doing hand held at 12.30am got ploughed down and killed?.

DVD
The Speed Camera Thread XVI - Adam {P}
DVD,
Don't think for one minute that depending on your answer I was going to bomb it out of my street at 40mph plus at half past midnight...I was just curious.....honest!

Thanks for your reply as well
--
After death, hair grows but phone calls tend to taper off
The Speed Camera Thread XVI - Nash
Plod with laser gun and speed camera van seen in High Wycombe regularly after dark. No idea if they actually are able to catch anyone or if its just for effect.
 

Value my car