getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

DT motoring today starts off with "climate crisis" and "harmful" carbon dioxide and launches into yet another paean for electric cars.

No mention of the appalling environmental and human cost of their production - African children and Chinese slaves digging the necessary material out of open cast mines.

How the committee that came up with the 2030 deadline was packed with climate zealots

Or of China building hundreds of new coal fired power plants across the world

Or of how these electric cars are out of almost everyone's budget

Or of how many 1000s of jobs will be lost

Or what happens if you live in a tower block and you need to charge your car

Or when a motorway full of cars with no charge comes to a standstill

This is off the top of my head, feel free to add the rest

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bromptonaut

Not keen then?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.

So-called climate change and its heavy propaganda is socialism through the back door. They will tax us to oblivion to fund their own agenda and will ban things they don't think we should be allowed to own. I will not be voting for Boris ever again unless he drops this rubbish especially the move to electric cars. My car is averaging 18mpg and that is my freedom of choice, or at least it should be. Since when did Greta take over no.10, or is it Carrie..

As much as I hate the forcing people to change to electric, arguments about the infastructure only work in the short term. I am sure people said similar about petrol stations at one point.

But my main gripe is them FORCING people into change, be that with outright ban on sales, or taxation, congestion charges etc. I mean sure I will tolerate the mainstream media including the one we all pay for ramming it down our throats that we will need to hop on to noahs ark if we don't buy quinoa substitute beef, but it should only be pursuasion. If they have to force us they have already lost the argument. Big difference between us and America, or better example Europe and America.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

I speak to James Ruppert from Autocar sometimes. He has a petition to reverse the crazy 2030 target petition.parliament.uk/petitions/556842

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.
Signed!!! Thank you!
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

That the climate is changing is boyond reasonable doubt. Whether it matters or humanity should just adapt (if it can) to whatever the climate becomes is a different matter.

It is also beyond reasonable doubt that ICE pollutes at the point of use, and in towns and cities makes the environment less pleasant, and probably causes some early deaths.

Energy is consumed when vehicles move whether EV or ICE. If electricity generation is based upon carbon fuels (gas, coal) there is little difference to climate change, it only changes where emissions are emitted.

The big question is - can green energy sources supplant carbon based, and over what timescales. Mandating EV only post 2030 means that transition to green energy needs to be complete by ~2040 as ICEs purchased before the 2030 deadline will still be on the road.

Arguments based upon personal freedom and rights are completely flawed. Laws deny freedom to individuals to protect the rights of society as a whole for very sound reasons.

We rightly criminalise and punish murderers, rapists, paedophiles, thieves, at one extreme. At the other, littering, playing music too loud, parking in the wrong place are also punishable - although one would hope with a smaller sentence!

That a society for generally good reasons wishes to constrain cetain individual actions and behaviours is completely sound. Outlawing ICEs is no more an unacceptable challenge to your personal freedom than stopping you defecating in your neighbours garden.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - badbusdriver

If they have to force us they have already lost the argument. Big difference between us and America, or better example Europe and America.

America actually did force everyone into lower emission cars way back in the 70's, in an effort to combat the air pollution. Hence an 8.2 litre Caddy, which before this would have been packing 400hp or so, was strangled back to under 200hp. And the awful Pinto based Mustang of the period was making something like 90hp from it's 5.0 V8.

Also, I believe California is planning to ban anything other than zero emissions cars from 2035.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

You could just stop reading the DT motoring section........!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

If they have to force us they have already lost the argument. Big difference between us and America, or better example Europe and America.

America actually did force everyone into lower emission cars way back in the 70's, in an effort to combat the air pollution. Hence an 8.2 litre Caddy, which before this would have been packing 400hp or so, was strangled back to under 200hp. And the awful Pinto based Mustang of the period was making something like 90hp from it's 5.0 V8.

Also, I believe California is planning to ban anything other than zero emissions cars from 2035.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

You could just stop reading the DT motoring section........!

I get it free from Booths supermarket every Saturday

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.
Sorry BBD I clicked post before finishing that. Meant to go on to make a broader point on the difference between Europe and America is Europeans tend to think the government has given them their freedoms. In USA, they tend to think they are born free and the government takes it away. I am aware of the smog regulations, snd disagree with those too. Fortunately Americans have found a way around it all and Ford have released an engine called Godzilla which is a 7.3 petrol v8
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow
Fortunately Americans have found a way around it all and Ford have released an engine called Godzilla which is a 7.3 petrol v8

Fortunately for dinosaurs? Oil companies? Ford? Americans?

But perhaps not so fortunate for the rest of us.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.

Yes, all of those! Brilliant engine, proper old school torquey detuned big block from what i've read.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Trilogy.
Signed!!! Thank you!

Me too!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt
Signed!!! Thank you!

So have I.......

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Avant

Terry and Metropolis are both right: we all need to make an effort, but forcing people to take action isn't usually the best way of achieving it. I'm happy to do my bit by buying an electric car but I want that still to be my choice.

Railway electrification, trams and hybrid buses are all steps in the right direction, although I can't see a substitute for diesel as a fuel for long-distance lorries any time soon. Vans - Transit-size and smaller - need to be the next target as there are far more of these in city centres than there are big lorries.

Funny to think that Harrods grasped that point in 1939 in London. Their fleet of electric delivery vans lasted a long time, and I think they're re-introducing a modern equivalent.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - badbusdriver

I'd be happy to drive an electric van for my work were it feasible. But I don't have off street parking and there are a grand total of two fast chargers in town, plus about another four medium speed(?) ones.

In terms of budget, I could get an early Kangoo for around £5k, but while its range would be fine most of the time, there are 4 days in my monthly round where it would be touch and go in the summer and a no no in the winter!. Plus, most Kangoo's don't have fast charging capability, so circa 12 hours on a 3 pin plug (with the cable across the pavement).

A new Nissan eNV200 would certainly have the range, and the payments could (haven't looked into the figures fully) easily work out cheaper than my current overall running costs, but that still leaves the potential problem of charging it up.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt

If electric does take off in a big way it will mean more and more fields full of solar arrays and wind farms which will take up room we really need for housing, so IMO more Nuclear should be built to take the place of them

Or concentrate on Hydrogen which appears to be coming on well with Toyota Honda and Hyundai, much better range than all electric and even green Hydrogen being researched and being produced in some countries

Large lorries will benefit from Hydrogen as they wont need a trailer full on batteries to pull the load which will have decreased with all electric due to weight restrictions and the danger of accidents

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

If electric does take off in a big way it will mean more and more fields full of solar arrays and wind farms which will take up room we really need for housing, so IMO more Nuclear should be built to take the place of them.

We are edging towards the excess-population question. I don't like the idea of huge solar arrays either, but those found in parts of Europe are vast by comparison with ours. But neither do I like the idea of steadily eating into green belt with big housing estates, with all their associated problems of extra traffic on inadequate roads. Countryside is needed to feed (and entertain) people rather than be covered with swarms of houses - and worse, enormous hangars mostly used to store huge amounts of imported stuff for distribution.

Everyone assumes we can just go on getting our food from somewhere else. Foreign of course, it's more interesting.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bromptonaut

If electric does take off in a big way it will mean more and more fields full of solar arrays and wind farms which will take up room we really need for housing.

Is there a great deal of overlap between land suitable for wind and that needed for housing? Even solar arrays are usually in places where building houses would provoke a revolution.

There are certainly some wildernesses, Barvas Moor on the Isle of Lewis springs to mind where proposed windfarms should be discouraged but a lot og the mega watt developments are off shore.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - sammy1

Or of how these electric cars are out of almost everyone's budget

I just picked this one but agree with the others. The prices are far to high for most to consider and I think the prices of ICE cars are being engineered to meet the EV prices.

We have been talking this subject for a number of years now and I do not see any great movement in the charging infrastructure, it is almost as if gov are waiting for something else to come along. I have seen but one electric transit size van operating in my area.

If you read about the mining of the "rare" minerals that are needed for the batteries it seems morally wrong but never stops anything driving the human race. Apparently it takes twice the energy to make an equivalent EV.

On balance my next car would be EV but STILL way way a way from being a sensible purchase.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Trilogy.

I feel bad about my 2005 VW diesel van's emissions, particularly noticeable on start up, but know if I part with it the emissions it puts out are likely to be greater, given I cover only about 3,800 miles a year.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Sofa Spud

Let's face it, the biggest thing that petrolheads and boy racers fear from electric cars is that they don't make a brrrm-brrrm noise. And yet the motor industry has been striving since the very beginning to make most cars as quiet and smooth as possible and electric cars do this without even trying. Also I suppose petrolheads will miss changing gear but the motor industry is moving towards automatics anyway - even the new Land Rover Defender comes with automatic as standard.

All the usual arguments about electric cars might have been true 10 years ago but now the only ones that still stand are high purchase price and limited access to rapid charging, but both these situations are improving.

Just imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

As we move towards a renewable and clean electricity, electric cars will be virtually pollution free, apart from particulates from tyres as they wear.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 30/01/2021 at 14:25

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Trilogy.

Yes SS, they're sterile, sounding too much the same as each other.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Sofa Spud

Yes SS, they're sterile, sounding too much the same as each other.

My mountain bike doesn't make any noise, apart from a few rattles and the click of the chain and maybe a slight hum from the tyres on tarmac. But that doesn't stop me enjoying riding it .

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Trilogy.

My mountain bike doesn't make any noise, apart from a few rattles and the click of the chain and maybe a slight hum from the tyres on tarmac. But that doesn't stop me enjoying riding it .

Comparing a bike that's never made a noise with a car, has no validity.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt

Let's face it, the biggest thing that petrolheads and boy racers fear from electric cars is that they don't make a brrrm-brrrm noise. And yet the motor industry has been striving since the very beginning to make most cars as quiet and smooth as possible and electric cars do this without even trying. Also I suppose petrolheads will miss changing gear but the motor industry is moving towards automatics anyway - even the new Land Rover Defender comes with automatic as standard.

All the usual arguments about electric cars might have been true 10 years ago but now the only ones that still stand are high purchase price and limited access to rapid charging, but both these situations are improving.

Just imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

As we move towards a renewable and clean electricity, electric cars will be virtually pollution free, apart from particulates from tyres as they wear.

Its going to take a few years to get fully renewable electricity and the ugly wind farms will get more to cope, also fields full of solar arrays which are not that great to look at, unless you like scenery like that.

batteries are worse for the environment yet we want more and we still do not know if it will make a difference, everyone goes on about the price of electric cars but it seems not many are concerned about battery production and mining

there must be some concern over all EVs for the Toyota boss to talk about it in the way he has done. but maybe no one is listening which appears to be the case?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - sammy1

ust imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

At least then people would carry their fuel around in a jerry can! Try carrying around a spare 750kg battery!!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt

ust imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

At least then people would carry their fuel around in a jerry can! Try carrying around a spare 750kg battery!!

The way its going with battery tech you could fill a battery with liquid already charged, the old is removed within seconds and refilled in seconds just like filling your tank, OK a few minutes but you get the idea....if it comes off as hoped!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - focussed

ust imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

At least then people would carry their fuel around in a jerry can! Try carrying around a spare 750kg battery!!

The way its going with battery tech you could fill a battery with liquid already charged, the old is removed within seconds and refilled in seconds just like filling your tank, OK a few minutes but you get the idea....if it comes off as hoped!

Are you doing this in your shed?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt

ust imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

At least then people would carry their fuel around in a jerry can! Try carrying around a spare 750kg battery!!

The way its going with battery tech you could fill a battery with liquid already charged, the old is removed within seconds and refilled in seconds just like filling your tank, OK a few minutes but you get the idea....if it comes off as hoped!

Are you doing this in your shed?

lol, a university, is, according to you tube doing research into it, like so many others, to find a quicker way of charging EVs, apparently it is being tried out on lower voltage batteries which they reckon are having limit success.

IMO, Hydrogen will get more popular gradually as the tech improves, as a few companies are now starting to experiment with HGVs and Vans abroad. some I gather are here in UK but don`t know much about it at the moment, info on that is rather vague to say the least

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - John F

also fields full of solar arrays which are not that great to look at, unless you like scenery like that.

It's a shame that building regs did not insist upon every warehouse, factory and supermarket roof having solar panels. I live in Northants which probably has enough shed roof acreage to provide power for every electric car in the country. Better than wasting our prime agricultural land on solar arrays.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< It's a shame that building regs did not insist upon every warehouse, factory and supermarket roof having solar panels. >>

I'm with you 100% John. But why not include houses ? Most semis and bungalows can easily accommodate a useful array (as ours does), but I suppose a tower-block couldn't generate much per flat.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - focussed

also fields full of solar arrays which are not that great to look at, unless you like scenery like that.

It's a shame that building regs did not insist upon every warehouse, factory and supermarket roof having solar panels. I live in Northants which probably has enough shed roof acreage to provide power for every electric car in the country. Better than wasting our prime agricultural land on solar arrays.

Even an installation of 120 x 2,2 square metre panels, allowing for electrical DC /AC inverter losses has a peak output of 30.5 kw but only has an average output year round of 5 kw.

And that's in Santa Cruz California by the way!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - skidpan

I feel bad about my 2005 VW diesel van's emissions, particularly noticeable on start up, but know if I part with it the emissions it puts out are likely to be greater, given I cover only about 3,800 miles a year.

When I think back to the 1st diesel car we bought I often wonder what we were thinking. It was a Golf TDi 90 PS and on 1st start or hard acceleration the amount of dense black smoke produced was biblical. The 3rd one we bought, a Mondeo TDCi 130 PS appeared smoke free as was the Focus TDCi that followed. The last 2 had DPF's and after over 6 years both had clean exhausts which clearly proved the technology worked.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< on 1st start or hard acceleration the amount of dense black smoke produced was biblical. >>

Really, Skidpan ? Which book were you thinking of ? :-)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

Sorry to touch on the easily validated.

Your comment that charging infrastructure has seen no great movement is wrong (better described as complete rubbish)

Depratment of Transport report - charging points for EV have grown fivefold since 2015.

If you are going to make comments they would have more credibity if they were vaguely connected to reality.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.

Increased 5 fold, what was the starting point? A 5-fold increase of 1 isn't going to mean much. If you are going to patronise (like so many of your eco brethren), at least be precise :)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - sammy1

<< It's a shame that building regs did not insist upon every warehouse, factory and supermarket roof having solar panels. >>

I have seen the sun on only about 3 days in the last 60. I cannot see the benefit of panels in winter with at best 8hrs of daylight. Large solar farms are still applying for planning but the smaller scale seems uneconomical. Didn't the gov pull the rug on subsidies. There's that word again the gov throwing tax payers money at their pet projects. Is it £3k on EV cars!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Avant

Our solar panels (through the feed-in tariff) pay for nearly all our electricity bill. You need to look at it year-on-year.

We were lucky to get ours in 2015 before the idiot government stopped the subsidies. The payback period after the initial cost is about 7 to 8 years, so no go if you don't intend to stay in a house for very long.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

Our solar panels (through the feed-in tariff) pay for nearly all our electricity bill. You need to look at it year-on-year.

We were lucky to get ours in 2015 before the idiot government stopped the subsidies. The payback period after the initial cost is about 7 to 8 years, so no go if you don't intend to stay in a house for very long.

Ours likewise - it was installed in late 2011 so we are locked into the original tariff of 44p/unit payback, which with only 9 panels pays for our grid intake. In essence we bought about 10 years' grid leccy up front, after that it's free.

But the original subsidy was really to get the installation business up and running, which it did. Some went out of business or diversified soon after the tariff was halved.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

"There are now more than 35,000 charge point connectors across the UK in over 13,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone"

tinyurl.com/y32kfts3

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
I’m a big fan of EV’s, and looking forward to their increased use, but that’s a slightly misleading figure in that I’ve just filled up with diesel at one petrol station that had 16 pumps.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt

"There are now more than 35,000 charge point connectors across the UK in over 13,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone"

tinyurl.com/y32kfts3

Thats a lot of wasted time if it takes 1 hour to charge a car, even 20minutes is a long time waiting when a hydrogen will charge in much less time....

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - focussed

"There are now more than 35,000 charge point connectors across the UK in over 13,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone"

tinyurl.com/y32kfts3

Thats a lot of wasted time if it takes 1 hour to charge a car, even 20minutes is a long time waiting when a hydrogen will charge in much less time....

But you will spend a lot of time looking for an H2 filling station..........!

According to ZapMap, which provides information on the electric-car recharging and hydrogen-car refuelling points, there are only 13 hydrogen stations in the UK. Five of these are located within the M25, with others in the Southeast and Midlands.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - skidpan

Has anyone on here considered the infrastructure needed to supply all the cars, buses, lorries etc with Hydrogen. Fuel is not simply moved around in tankers, there is a huge network of underground pipelines from the refineries to the distribution depots as well as direct to airports. I have no idea if its feasible to transport Hydrogen by pipeline, if it is imagine the upset caused replicating the existing network, if its not imagine the disruption of the extra tankers on the roads.

No solution is perfect but lets stop pretending Hydrogen is the answer to all our problems because its not.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt

Has anyone on here considered the infrastructure needed to supply all the cars, buses, lorries etc with Hydrogen.

Actually I have, one point made was that an HGV will have to carry almost half its weight in batteries to travel any reasonable distance, a Hydrogen tank is a lot less bulky and can triple an HGV mileage, which also means the transport company will save costs as it can take a bigger payload, which for us is cheaper goods

the infrastructure needed even if its green Hydrogen may work out eventually cheaper and as easy as electric could be, I have no objection to battery electric cars but seems a waste of space in a car, where a Hydrogen car or any vehicle would be less space taken up and more miles

we also don`t know if our system will take all cars that hit the grid, no 2 chargers and software are the same and anything where electricity is concerned is unpredictable no matter how well its installed!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

I have no idea if its feasible to transport Hydrogen by pipeline,

There used to be a hydrogen pipeline from Runcorn to Ellesmere Port (just a few miles). It was a by-product from chlorine production and was used for hardening fats to make margarine. But it was a low-pressure gas pipe (obviously). I hate to imagine the risk of a high-pressure line supplying fuel stations, which might be important for transporting any liquid amounts.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Alby Back
I'm sure I heard part of an interview on R4 a few weeks ago featuring some clever scientisty person. He was saying something about testing the feasibility of using the current gas supply pipe network to carry hydrogen. This was in respect of converting household boilers to hydrogen. But, if that could be done, then it seems possible that it could potentially also service hydrogen vehicle refuelling.

But I have no idea if it could work, or indeed if he did. Might just have been a bloke with no clue who managed to get on the radio because it sounded a bit interesting for all I know.

Seem to think ( like I say, I didn't catch the whole programme) he was something to do with a wind powered hydrogen production facility that is either proposed or maybe even underway in the South East of England somewhere.

Apologies for the utter vagueness of the above, but maybe there is a cunning plan afoot.

;-)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - kiss (keep it simple)

The supply of hydrogen in gas form is presumably possible for domestic boilers via the present pipes. For a car to store a useful amount it needs to be supplied in liquid form which will be at a much higher pressure I assume. Perhaps somebody with greater knowledge of this subject can enlighten us further.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

The supply of hydrogen in gas form is presumably possible for domestic boilers via the present pipes. For a car to store a useful amount it needs to be supplied in liquid form which will be at a much higher pressure I assume. Perhaps somebody with greater knowledge of this subject can enlighten us further.

Gases cannot be liquefied above their 'critical temperature'. As hydrogen is the smallest, lightest molecule, that temp is very low - a lot colder than liquid nitrogen - which means transporting liquid H2 requires a high-pressure low-temperature container, as would any vehicle using it as fuel (still want such a car ?). Pipelines for liquid H2 might also be problematic.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

Whenever hydrogen gets discussed, someone always starts banging on (PI) about how horribly dangerous it is, yet they see no problem with the MUCH more horribly dangerous petrol, because its been a familiar part of life for 100 years or so.

They make NAPALM with it, y'know?

That's a clue..

Skunkworks looked at this when working on a hydrogen-fuelled U2 replacement, and concluded there was no safety issue relative to existing jet kerosene.

Jet kerosene is a lot less dangerous than petrol.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
We already have hydrogen fuel stations in the UK that produce hydrogen on site, using electricity from nearby solar farms. No transportation required.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - focussed
We already have hydrogen fuel stations in the UK that produce hydrogen on site, using electricity from nearby solar farms. No transportation required.

How many of these H2 stations are there in total?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
As of February 2030, 13 in the Uk.

www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/13...n
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - skidpan
As of February 2030, 13 in the Uk. www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/13...n

And like I have pointed out before on another site if you live between Rotherham and Aberdeen there are none. 7 in the SE, 2 in South Wales and 2 in the West Midlands.

Its VHS and Betamax all over again. Betamax may have had advantages over VHS but by getting the major manufacturers on board VHS won.

Hydrogen cars may be excellent but who in their right mind will buy one at present especially when they make electric cars look cheap.

With our Skoda iV I can charge it by plugging into any existing 3 pin socket in the UK. No changes to the infrastructure are required for me to do that.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt

Hydrogen cars may be excellent but who in their right mind will buy one at present especially when they make electric cars look cheap.

what has right mind got to do with it, like you I don`t know how its going to go over the next 10 years, its possible your right, its also possible it could go battery electric and Hydrogen, which in my opinion it may go, giving a choice like we have now petrol or diesel

I think Hydrogen on HGVs will win, due to mileage over weight which would be the problem on HGVs

as for cars its possible they may both be a choice which is what I would like to see, rather than battery powered wins outright, unless they reduce the battery size and increase mileage to Hydrogen capability

But its a few years away so who knows, but I wouldn`t count out Hydrogen just yet too early imo as Tech gets better it may surprise us all!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - skidpan

I recently saw an old Top Gear (from about 2006 possibly) which in the same programme tested a Tesla (the first one that was based on a Lotus Elise) and Hydrogen Honda.

Their conclusion was simple, the Electric car has no future whatsoever since the Hydrogen car is just like an existing car but uses hydrogen as its fuel.

In those 14 years Tesla have progressed to making cars that people want and people buy that for many people actually work in the real world (they wouldn't for us since we do trips that are over 400 miles and there is no way I am prepared to spend ages looking for a working charge point then wait hours for the car to charge). Tesla have been joined by most manufacturers who now sell either plug in hybrids or full EV cars, those that haven't joined the club yet will be doing so shortly.

In those same 14 years we have seen just 2 hydrogen cars (Hyundai and Toyota) go on sale in the UK. That is probably just as well with only 13 places to refuel them.

So huge strides for electric car sales but I have yet to see one of those Hyundai or Toyota hydrogen cars. Cannot find sales figures for the UK on the web either not even on the SMMT site.

Personally I am not bothered which wins, if its a mix that is fine by me as well but Hydrogen has some serious catching up to do.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

H2 could have significant advantages - apparently 1kg H2 gives the same energy as 1 gallon of petrol. This is a distinct advantage over batteries. It may also offer much faster refuelling similar to carbon fuels.

But there are also some real downsides:

  • most H2 is made from reforming natural gas, not green
  • it can be made through simple electrolysis which is about 80% efficient - you put in more electrical energy than you get out as H2
  • to be usable in a vehicle the H2 needs to be compressed - also energy hungry

The benefits of H2 over battery as fuel for HGVs etc are clearer - range, load capacity, and avoid transporting tonnes of batteries. It is quite plausible that for heavier vehicles (over 12000 kg??) the the govt will extend the cut-off date.

For cars and small vans, I would personally put money on batteries - as a solution it is proven, albeit with room for improvement. Hydrogen is largely unproven with real issues surrounding H2 production, compression, distribution etc.

Which of the technologies wins the race is probably unimportant.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

H2 could have significant advantages - apparently 1kg H2 gives the same energy as 1 gallon of petrol. This is a distinct advantage over batteries.

That's a misleading comparison, even if it may well be true. Unless your H2 is in liquid form the 1 kilo of H2 will need a large volume as it weighs very little. Even as a liquid that kilo occupies about 14 litres = about 3 gallons.

As a plus, it adds very little weight to the vehicle - just the pressure container.

Edited by Andrew-T on 31/01/2021 at 23:25

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - corax
I think Hydrogen on HGVs will win, due to mileage over weight which would be the problem on HGVs

How will the hydrogen be stored on an HGV safely to give it effective range? As has already been noted, it has to be stored in liquid form at extreme pressure.

Presumably the engine would then have to be spark ignition. It would produce less torque for the same capacity.

Edited by corax on 31/01/2021 at 20:33

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt
I think Hydrogen on HGVs will win, due to mileage over weight which would be the problem on HGVs

How will the hydrogen be stored on an HGV safely to give it effective range? As has already been noted, it has to be stored in liquid form at extreme pressure.

Presumably the engine would then have to be spark ignition. It would produce less torque for the same capacity.

it will be stored the same way a car does, but the HGV will be fuel cell, not Diesel engine, though experiments are being done now (where they were put off years ago).

More urgent now for cleaner fuel

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< t will be stored the same way a car does, but the HGV will be fuel cell, not Diesel engine >>

Only as a compressed gas, unless you intend to carry very low-temperature equipment in the vehicle too (and I mean low, about 30°K)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
Hydrogen vehicles don’t have engines - the hydrogen is there to produce electricity to power electric motors.
A hydrogen car, van or truck is electrically powered.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt
Hydrogen vehicles don’t have engines - the hydrogen is there to produce electricity to power electric motors. A hydrogen car, van or truck is electrically powered.

There is talk of duel fuel diesels for vans and HGVs, problem is Hydrogen produced by fossil fuels causes higher rates of exhaust emissions, if produced by solar or wind electric they are very low.

experiments are just starting in this so may not come to anything.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Sofa Spud
Hydrogen vehicles don’t have engines - the hydrogen is there to produce electricity to power electric motors. A hydrogen car, van or truck is electrically powered.

There were experiments with using hydrogen in adapted petrol engines, as that was once seen as a possible route to clean motoring. That was years ago and now, as you say, hydrogen is seen as a fuel for electric cars, by means of a fuel cell. Fuel cell cars would also have a battery, though somewhat smaller than a pure battery EV, to take advantage of regenerative braking.

It looks as though that pure battery EV is the way the industry is going. That's what I'd bet on.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

Or of China building hundreds of new coal fired power plants across the world

Could be worse. The Chinese could be building reassuringly cheap nuclear reactors worldwide...

Oh wait...

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt

Or of China building hundreds of new coal fired power plants across the world

Could be worse. The Chinese could be building reassuringly cheap nuclear reactors worldwide...

Oh wait...

Aren't they making smaller reactors that are less dangerous but as efficient as larger stations?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

I believe they have a variant/knockoff of the CANDU, which is supposed to be a lot safer than the inherently unsafe Westinghouse PWR design that forms the bulk of installed capacity worldwide. I think their main design is just a Franco-Chinese variant on that, but I might be out of date.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car.

The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I cannot see how HSE can have approved the system: put a finger on the cold bits, lose a lot of skin at best and a finger at worst.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car.

The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I cannot see how HSE can have approved the system: put a finger on the cold bits, lose a lot of skin at best and a finger at worst.

If its adequately insulated, it'll still get cold, but the rate of extra-digit heat transfer might not be sufficient to reduce finger count.

I've seen plenty of propane tanks covered in frost, yet they remain in widespread use without apparently causing a huge rate of amputation.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

Propane as a liquid is -46C. This is within human experience, particularly with wind chill added, in some artic areas and up mountains. Exposure = frosbite in minutes.

Hydrogen liquifies at -253C. Exposure means body part destroyed in seconds

The two are not remotely comparable - a bit like a comparison between a normal ice cube at -10C and a domestic oven at a high temperature of +200C.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

Propane as a liquid is -46C. This is within human experience, particularly with wind chill added, in some artic areas and up mountains. Exposure = frosbite in minutes.

Hydrogen liquifies at -253C. Exposure means body part destroyed in seconds

The two are not remotely comparable - a bit like a comparison between a normal ice cube at -10C and a domestic oven at a high temperature of +200C.

The context was surface contact with the container, not immersion in the contents.

The two are not remotely comparable - a bit like a comparison between picking up a thermos of very hot coffee, and pouring it over your groin.

All that is required for frost to form is that the surface is below 0C.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car. The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I don't believe that for a millisecond. As I have said twice, H2 is always a gas above about 30°K (that's about -240°C). Cold high-pressure gas being transferred will also frost over the delivery pipe. No less dodgy for users though.

And while propane boils at about -43°, a tank of it may well be at about ambient temperature but under several ats pressure. As gas is drawn off, the liquid cools, so the tank frosts over. It isn't necessarily at -40° or even -20°. If it WAS at -40° the gas would need to be sucked out !

Edited by Andrew-T on 01/02/2021 at 14:46

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car. The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I don't believe that for a millisecond.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaIW5CQQ3Zo

From 6.30mins...

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car. The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I don't believe that for a millisecond. >>

Oh I believe it happened. I'm just saying the hydrogen wasn't liquid. That would have been physically impossible.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100

Just been doing a bit of reading on this, and the storage pressure for cars is 700 bar, whereas trucks and buses will store it at 350 bar as they're not deemed as tight for space and can have larger, and lower pressure, tanks.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - galileo

Just been doing a bit of reading on this, and the storage pressure for cars is 700 bar, whereas trucks and buses will store it at 350 bar as they're not deemed as tight for space and can have larger, and lower pressure, tanks.

Anyone who has used scuba diver's air bottles, which are usually limited to 300 bar, will know that a sizable tank will be a heavy lump if it is big enough to give good range between fill ups.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
You’d hope that materials technology has come on a little with development to enable a lighter, but robust, tank.
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - badbusdriver

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car.

The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I cannot see how HSE can have approved the system: put a finger on the cold bits, lose a lot of skin at best and a finger at worst.

The metalwork surrounding the hose didn't turn white with frost as he filled up, it was already white with frost. Why?, because it was a cold and frosty day. This can be determined by the looking at May's visible breath, but also by him saying, "The slight risk on a day like today is that the nozzle freezes to the car".

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< This can be determined by the looking at May's visible breath, but also by him saying, "The slight risk on a day like today is that the nozzle freezes to the car". >>

You may not be giving him credit for remembering that when a gas expands from high pressure to lower pressure it cools the pipe carrying it. Conversely when you pump up your bike tyres the pipe warms.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.

I think helium, being an atom and not a molecule, does a bit better than that.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.

I think helium, being an atom and not a molecule, does a bit better than that.

Lousy fuel though, which is probably just as well.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bolt
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.

I think helium, being an atom and not a molecule, does a bit better than that.

Lousy fuel though, which is probably just as well.

I think you have more chance of electric cables being nicked than Hydrogen leak, also a risk of cracked cables causing shock but then we could go on, people may as well say They dont like the idea of Hydrogen,and say they would rather have massive batteries in the floor/boot

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - badbusdriver

<< This can be determined by the looking at May's visible breath, but also by him saying, "The slight risk on a day like today is that the nozzle freezes to the car". >>

You may not be giving him credit for remembering that when a gas expands from high pressure to lower pressure it cools the pipe carrying it. Conversely when you pump up your bike tyres the pipe warms.

Not at all, just pointing out that the metal on the hose doesn't turn white with frost as he is filling up, it was already white with frost...............

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< I think you have more chance of electric cables being nicked than Hydrogen leak, >>

It may not be difficult to construct leaktight high-pressure containers for hydrogen. Keeping them leaktight over a working life may be harder. Compare with the O2 or N2 cylinders we all know - the valves are not everlasting and may need maintenance. Hydrogen tends to like escaping, and pressures must be high to contain a useful amount. Plus an escape offers a chance of explosion.

It may not be as simple as you suggest, over the long term.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100

I'm not sure anyone has suggested it's simple. That's why Toyota's R&D budget is $18 million dollars.....per day. And they're comfortably out spent by VAG, albeit spread across more brands.

Revision - the above figures are 2015. 2019 was $21 million dollars per day.

Edited by mcb100 on 02/02/2021 at 11:36

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

Revision - the above figures are 2015. 2019 was $21 million dollars per day.

Per DAY ? Are you sure ? That's about 7 billion dollars a year. Can any motor maker stand that ?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - RT

Revision - the above figures are 2015. 2019 was $21 million dollars per day.

Per DAY ? Are you sure ? That's about 7 billion dollars a year. Can any motor maker stand that ?

VW Group's R&D budget was 14.3 billion Euros for 2019, that's about 17 billion US dollars

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100

Absolutely sure, the figures are out there.

That's why I get amused and frustrated in equal measures when 'people on the internet' always seem to know better.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

Absolutely sure, the figures are out there.

.... and they still get some things wrong, or rush them out too early ... :-(

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

A hydrogen leak is dangerous.

A petrol leak is really, really dangerous.

But we are used to petrol, so it isn't seen as a big deal.

They still make napalm with it, though.

 

Value my car