Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case

Honest John Back Room » Motoring discussion
View Threaded
Wed 22 Jan 2020 17:47
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - craig-pd130

I was reading this article about a nasty murder case that's ongoing in Wales: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/22/man-74-was-shot-with-crossbow-as-he-fixed-satellite-dish-court-told

What struck me was the section of the story below, about the data obtained from JLR's servers about the car's movements and functions:

"The court heard that a Land Rover Discovery belonging to the accused's partner was found burnt out on 3 June, two weeks after he was questioned by police about his possession of crossbows.

"The GPS in the car was destroyed by the fire but information retained by Jaguar Land Rover showed that on the night of 17 April it had travelled to the driveway of the victim's home and then to a nearby beach, in what is alleged to be a reconnaissance before the killing.

"On Thursday 18 April, the car was driven from the accused's home to the beach again, where it remained for an hour and a half until around 12 minutes after the victim was shot, the court heard.

"The system showed the boot was opened and closed when the car arrived and before it left." (my italics)

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 22 Jan 2020 20:08
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - misar

Would be interesting to know what Land Rover tell their owners about this system. Clearly the accused had no idea!

My car has no Internet connection but does have a 112 emergency call system built in (basically its own mobile phone and SIM). The manual has endless pages on data protection to reassure you about what it records. Even in the event of an automatic data download after a crash it can only disclose your last three GPS positions (allegedly).

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 23 Jan 2020 10:51
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - Firmbutfair

Would be interesting to know what Land Rover tell their owners about this system. Clearly the accused had no idea!

My car has no Internet connection but does have a 112 emergency call system built in (basically its own mobile phone and SIM). The manual has endless pages on data protection to reassure you about what it records. Even in the event of an automatic data download after a crash it can only disclose your last three GPS positions (allegedly).

It is becoming clear that large corporations have invested and encouraged the wholesale inclusion of comprehensive tracking and monitoring capabilities into our daily lives following our movements, habits, behaviours and our internet browsing history.

Many of these capabilities, it would seem, are enabled and fully functional, 'by default' from new and can only be partially disabled by us, the victim/user by venturing deep into the settings menus. Most modern entertainment systems, smart phones, personal computing devices and even domestic appliances have sophisticated 'software based' operating systems and are able to support multiple applications, often running concurrently, and sadly they all have resident programming/coding errors or 'bugs' due to the complexity of the algorithms and the high cost of fully testing and debugging the code before product release. These coding imperfections usually cause periodic lock ups and/or system crashes. Whether by design or just by incomplete pre-production testing and debugging, these 'software driven' systems need to be reset periodically to recover from the lock up or crash and when the so called obligatory 'factory reset' is applied - BINGO - all the original default tracking and monitoring settings are re-installed and re-enabled - by default. So, typically even if we had disabled as much as possible, it all returns and is re-enabled whenever a factory reset is applied. Furthermore these monitoring and tracking systems are also prone to erroroneous function but they too can be fine tuned and 'repaired' by subsequent software 'updates' that are downloaded, supposedly to keep our personal data secure!

What a farce, you could not make it work in favour of the 'corporate watching' any better if you tried! Undoubtedly our UK Local Authorities and County Councils are also 'in on the act' too - e.g. using drones to fly over their wards and housing estates to check who has built extensions without applying for planning permission etc!

With particular reference to the motoring situation it will undoubtedly become increasingly clear to us all that the seemingly very generous, 3, 5 or 7 year Manufacturer's Warranties will be likely to be dishonoured for the most obscure or trivial reasons of warranty violation, since the driver'shistory of abuse of his or her vehicle will be evidident when the built in ECU memory and any associated data, uploaded to 'the cloud' is scanned.

It never just rains my friends and colleagues - it pours!

Happy Motoring to all my friends and colleagues - we know it is all really for our own good don't we?

Edited by Firmbutfair on 23/01/2020 at 11:03

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 23 Jan 2020 13:43
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - FP

I think there is a clear distinction between the actions of a public body in seeking to detect (for example) violations of planning regulations and the gathering of information by corporate organisations for (presumably) financial gain - even if they argue that it's for the continuing development of their products.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 23 Jan 2020 14:58
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - Falkirk Bairn

Glasgow gangster had a bump with his car. Loan car whilst in for repair had a tracker.

He murdered another crook - initially he pleaded not guilty but on discovering the tracker info he changed his plea. He still got life - whatever that amounts to these days.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 23 Jan 2020 19:16
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - misar

Those concerned about this may find the following of interest.

“Default Data” includes the following.

“Location Data”:
geo-location coordinates of your Connected Vehicle’s latitude and longitude each time you turn off your connected Vehicle (“Ignition-Off”);

“Driving Data”:
driving behavior data, which includes the acceleration and speed at which your Connected Vehicle is driven, travel direction, and use of the steering and braking functions in your Connected Vehicle
(Driving Data is collected for each driving trip and transmitted at each Ignition Off);

“Vehicle Health Data”:
includes odometer, fuel level, oil life readings, Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs), and data from the Connected Vehicle’s OBD system (“OBD Data”). OBD Data includes, but is not limited to, engine coolant temperature, fuel injection volume, engine Rotation Per Minute (RPM), and the status of doors, hood, trunk, and hazard lights
(Vehicle Health Data is transmitted at each Ignition-Off).

It is taken from the Mazda USA website where they openly divulge that all their current vehicles have a Telematics Control Unit (TCU) that is activated prior to delivery to the dealer and can only be turned off by Mazda. Their UK cars have some aspects of the system but there is no mention anywhere by Mazda UK of having automatic data collection and transmission activated. I have asked them if it is present.

Edited by misar on 23/01/2020 at 19:18

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 23 Jan 2020 22:14
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - sammy1

All this location data is all well and good, but what are the long term implications re the insurance companies particularly as regards stored speeds etc? Are policy holders going to loose out if they like the police have access to the data?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 24 Jan 2020 11:17
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - misar

Here is a bit more from the Mazda USA document.

On an ongoing basis, we share the Default Data with you; our parent company, Mazda Motor Corporation, and our affiliates (collectively, the “Mazda Family of Companies”); and/or our third-party service providers. We share Default Data with our third-party service providers as needed for their support of our business purposes (listed below), not for our third-party service providers to make use of the Default Data for their own business purposes.

We may share the Default Data as follows: with law enforcement, courts, administrative bodies, or governments (“Enforcement Entities”) as may be required by applicable law; by legal process; in response to government investigations; for national security purposes; or where we have a good faith belief that disclosure of your Default Data is required by law or legal process.

We may also share your Default Data with Enforcement Entities where we have a good faith belief it is necessary to do so to prevent harm, injury, or loss, and we may use your Default Data as reasonably necessary to pursue or defend legal actions, even if harm, injury, or loss has already occurred; and with third-parties for educational research purposes in an anonymized and aggregated format.

Takes a brave man to assume his insurance company will not be able to find out what he has been up to if they suspect "a loss to them has occurred". For example, if you crashed at 90mph that would be illegal and your policy would probably be void.

Edited by misar on 24/01/2020 at 11:20

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 24 Jan 2020 11:39
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - Manatee

Takes a brave man to assume his insurance company will not be able to find out what he has been up to if they suspect "a loss to them has occurred". For example, if you crashed at 90mph that would be illegal and your policy would probably be void.

For vehicle damage or loss claims and the odd whiplash claim they might just cough up but if your accident resulted in a personal injury or death claim in the hundreds of thousands, and they can run to millions, then they will go to some lengths to put liability elsewhere if possible.

My house was all but destroyed by fire last year. The insurers defined this a "large loss" and considered it worth employing a forensic consultant to determine the cause of the fire before accepting the claim. Aside from (I assume) the obvious arson angle which was not explicitly referred to, they were also very interested in who might have worked on the electrical and heating systems, and how recently!

(The consultant could not determine the cause with certainty but was satisfied it was accidental and very likely caused by resistive heating in an electrical junction box.)

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 24 Jan 2020 12:46
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - Gibbo_Wirral

All this location data is all well and good, but what are the long term implications re the insurance companies particularly as regards stored speeds etc? Are policy holders going to loose out if they like the police have access to the data?

Simple. Don't lie.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:50
Land Rover Discovery - GPS & car data used as evidence in murder case - Firmbutfair

Wow - well spotted 'misar' your revelation about what Mazda USA openly disclose on their website about the obligatory gathering of 'default data' via a TCU is astonishing! Whilst the function and purpose of the TCU is apparently only for 'monitoring' purposes the use of the word 'Control' clearly indicates future intent. Many law abiding drivers have been advocating the use of Telematic Control by Police Patrol Drivers and Local Authorities for such purposes as providing the ability of a police patrol car to reliably and safely bring a stolen/uninsured or aggressively driven vehicle, to a halt, in a controlled manner, additionally locking the miscreants into the car for subsequent interrogation - by telematic (aka radio) control and secondly, the installation, by Local Authorities, of roadside telematics systems, (principally in 20mph, 30mph and maybe even 40mph 'built up areas') that automatically engage with passing vehicles, to limit their speed in accordance with the prevailing speed limits.

In both cases, if a TCU is fitted to the car then these control functions can be 'enabled' by manufacturers and/or service agents, or even remotely 'over the air' by any authority or in any jurisdiction that either approves or demands such behaviour.

Whilst some of this reminds us of George Orwell's 1984 dystopian novels, those of us 'in the know' have been crying out for the police to be given this (already proven and available) technology, as a valuable alternative to the horrific and dangerous police pursuit car chases seen on our TVs. However, when considering the possible consequences of the introduction of 'speed limiting' telematics, this needs to be thought through, green papered and properly discussed with the public and motoring organisations AA/RAC etc before widespread implementation as should always be the case before any 'wholesale imposition' of automatic systems on our roads and in our motor vehicles. Do not even get me started on the so called Smart Motorways Fiasco....!

Edited by Firmbutfair on 28/01/2020 at 11:59

Reply | Report as offensive | Link