kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt

Honest John Back Room » Technical matters
View Threaded
Sat 10 Jan 2015 10:52
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

i am trying to find out if my car has had the timing belt changed can anybody tell what the stock factory belt should be what writing or logo would be on the original factory belt

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 10 Jan 2015 11:19
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - RobJP

Put simply, no way of telling.

Kia may have changed who their 'approved' supplier is over the years, so the make of belt that they fit now might not be the same as that which was fitted 9 years ago. In addition, if the belt has been changed, and if an identical belt to the original was fitted, then that doesn't tell you anything either.

Time for you to make a decision. How much will it cost to change ?

If the belt fails, then the car is scrap.

Can you afford to throw the dice ?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Jan 2015 07:34
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

thanks for reply although the belt looks fine you never can tell i emailed the gate company and asked their advice the replied back asking what country i was from they are going to get back to me iasked if kia fitted their belts to stock factory engines its just i am on a likited budget and the cost to change belt is about £250 the only other way i could tell is to try and contact previous owners when log book arrives i suppose i could get a mechanic friend to give me advice on the state of the belt as i am hoping to get another car this year hopefully if the belt was original would the markings on the belt not have gone by now

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Jan 2015 10:56
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - gordonbennet

It's not perfect, but get a magnifier on a stick and a powerful torch down there, where the belt goes over the tensioner/idler the teeth will be stretched and deterioration usually shows up there first, you see hairline cracks starting to appear at the edges of the teeth, any sign of those get it changed.

Chances of an original belt still having readable lettering is slim.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Jan 2015 10:57
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - skidpan

Every OEM cam belt I have changed has had the vehicle brands name on it (just - they wear of over the years). Kia would be unlikely to fit Gates branded belts at the factory.

As you say the only way to find out is to ask the previous owner but if the car has had multiple owners how would he know.

If in doubt change it or be prepared to gamble. How lucky do you feel.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Jan 2015 11:54
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - Railroad.
I can't believe you're even asking this question about a 10 year old car with that amount's worth of wear and mileage. The car will now bear very little resemblance to what it was when it was new. You have a simple choice here, either change the belt which is regarded as routine preventive maintenance, or leave it, save your money and wait for it to break, when the decision to scrap it will be made for you.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 13 Jan 2015 06:24
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

thanks for your reply its not a high mileage car 72.000 and i khow some cars can do100.000 before belt change but i thank you for your sound advice

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 13 Jan 2015 08:56
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - skidpan

thanks for your reply its not a high mileage car 72.000 and i khow some cars can do100.000 before belt change but i thank you for your sound advice

Not a good arguement. All manufacturers give both distance and age for replacement. Pretty sure Kia, like most makes, are 6 years. If its the original its 4 years overdue.

As said above the car will be scrap if the belt breaks.

Your choice.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 17:48
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

have decided to change the belt but would still like to find out what belt was in the car when it left the factory as a matter of interest maybe try another site as nobody obviously on here knows or can tell me where to find out

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 13 Jan 2015 10:40
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

once again thanks for your reply if the belt has been changed and this is what i am trying to find out at manufactures recommended 60.000 mile service then the replacement belt has only done 12.000 miles then i dont see the need to change it for a while yet if i can discover it is the original belt then i woold replace it i will maybe get some info when the log book comes and i can ask one of the previous aowners the guy i bought it of didnt know as there was no history with the car but would you change a belt you knew only had done 12.000 miles

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 13 Jan 2015 16:37
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

thanks for reply the markings are very faint but i can just make out hy/kia gates powergrip with the number 240something and 270somwething if i find it is the original i will definately change it but i dont see the point of changing it the now if it was changed approx 12.000 ago hopefully when i get log book i can ask any former keeper i know if the belt was cghanged it ha\d to be one approved by kia soething to do with the warranty

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 13 Jan 2015 16:46
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - Railroad.

thanks for reply the markings are very faint but i can just make out hy/kia gates powergrip with the number 240something and 270somwething if i find it is the original i will definately change it but i dont see the point of changing it the now if it was changed approx 12.000 ago hopefully when i get log book i can ask any former keeper i know if the belt was cghanged it ha\d to be one approved by kia soething to do with the warranty

What will it prove even if it was changed? It's still a 10 year old car. The manufacturer's original recommended service and component replacement intervals have long since gone out the window by the time a car is this age.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 08:17
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

i know its a ten year old car but to me its all i can afford just now it a cars age to me is irrevelent as long as the car is roadworthy and mechanically sound my friends mercedes is 23 years old and still looking good my motorcycle is 33 years old and still goes strong i get your point about a vehicle being ten years iold but if it is looked after then i could last a while yet although i am hoping to change my car this year and maybe sell the kia i would want to make sure that the buyer gets a least a roadworthy vehicle i would not like to sell someone a car and on driving it home the engine blew i could not do that to anybody perhaps thats what is in my mind i mean look at some top car manufactures they give you a year or two warranty on their cars tharts how confident they are about their components you get the same guarntee when you buy a toaster from tescos

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 08:34
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - Railroad.
No one is disputing any of what you say. What I'm saying is that the manufacturer's recommended service intervals no longer apply by the time a car gets to the age yours is now. In fact they never really apply at all. It's sales pitch so that they can say this car will go xx,xxx miles between services etc. The manufacturer designed your car and built it, but that's where their association with it ends. They have no idea what you're going to use it for, how you're going to drive it, what climate you're going to use it in and what fuel you're going to put in the tank. So they cannot know when and how it should be serviced. Their recommendations are a guide, and nothing more than a guide. And even then it's assumed that the car in only used in totally ideal conditions.

Servicing on an old car must be done on a common sense basis. The same applies to changing components such as toothed belts.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 08:51
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

next car will hwww.kia.com/us/en/content/why-kia/quality/warranty...e a chain this i dont understand

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 08:55
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - skidpan

next car will hwww.kia.com/us/en/content/why-kia/quality/warranty...e a chain this i dont understand

I don't understand at all. What are you saying?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 09:02
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

never ever bought a new car so dont understand warranty things but things like belts brakes etc i understand are consumables like starting motors alternators etc i think i am of the old school although i can do some work on modern cars its more difficult you need things like laptops fault code readers etc i think uyearas ago most cars had chains i think it was the japanese that introduced belts but i see the modern trend for most car makers is noe leaning towards chains bring back plugs and points i say lol i may be a little paranoid about belts one snapped on me what a mess i have changed belts in the past no problem but nowadays you have to remove half the engine just to get to them i would imagine a modern cars cambelt is about £400/500 to change i still can do oil changes discs and pads change starters etc but thats about all may i ask what car you have

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 09:27
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - skidpan

never ever bought a new car so dont understand warranty things but things like belts brakes etc i understand are consumables like starting motors alternators etc i think

Belts and brakes are consumables but alternators and starters are covered under warranty.

i think it was the japanese that introduced belts

Not really. The first road car engine I can remember being introduced with a belt driven cam was the old slant 4 Vauxhall in about 1968. There were almost certainly others before this.

Changing a cam belt every 5 or 6 years is part of the cars maintenance. I budget for such items when I buy a car, that way its not a nsaty surprise when they need changing.

Don't for one minute think chains are fitted for life. Some need changing just like belts but since they are more difficult to get at and need more of the engine dismantling they cost more to change.

And just to dissapoint you further some engines use both belts and chains. The belt drives one of the cams as normal and then the cams are interconnected by a chain. Some Kia engines were like this, possibly yours.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 11:06
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

i did not normally budget for timing belts etc because i used tio chang them myself and until i learned to drive in my fifties i never bothered with cars i was a biker hindsight is a wonderful thing some of the old british bikes i had are worth anything between 10.000 to 20.000 pounds in restored condition but even say a vincent black shadow in fair condition is woth a lot of money

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 11:55
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - Railroad.
The reason why engine designers choose toothed belts rather than a chain or gears for camshaft drive is simply down to cost. Belts are quiet, cheap and require no lubrication. That is a whole set of problems that do not have to be worried about as far as the manufacturer is concerned. The downside for the consumer is that the belt doesn't have an infinite service life, and due to their location they are often a tricky job to replace. None of this is the manufacturer's problem though.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 16:28
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - madf

The 1962 Glas 1004 was the first mass produced car to have a belt driven camshaft.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_belt_%28camshaft%29

(BMW bought Glas)

Edited by madf on 14/01/2015 at 16:29

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 14 Jan 2015 18:41
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - gordonbennet

I'm quite a fan of belts, you have to buy with care though so you don't end up with something requiring 6 hours labour to change.

Chains are all well and good so long as they are designed properly (duplex), have good quality tensioners and the car is serviced with common sense and not necessarily as the maker recommends in order to make their cars appear cheap to service.

Some chain drives are poor designs, single chains often stretch and may well have replacement scheduled in the service regime, they won't be mentioning that little gem during the sales pitch.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 09:22
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - Bolt

I'm quite a fan of belts, you have to buy with care though so you don't end up with something requiring 6 hours labour to change.

Chains are all well and good so long as they are designed properly (duplex), have good quality tensioners and the car is serviced with common sense and not necessarily as the maker recommends in order to make their cars appear cheap to service.

Some chain drives are poor designs, single chains often stretch and may well have replacement scheduled in the service regime, they won't be mentioning that little gem during the sales pitch.

I`m not, i`ve never liked them, Prefer chains but also cant see why there have been so many problems with chains as they should be on for life not untill a tensioner breaks or they snap, it shouldnt happen

Apart from bad servicing ie neglect, or chains that are not made properly, they should imo last a lifetime, as for stretching I can understand a rubber belt doing that but not a steel chain or are they now made of other materials?

As a matter of interest I bought a Toyota corolla on a W plate had 133k on the clock full service history except no record of belt being replaced, turned out after contacting garage that serviced car belt had never been replaced,I done it straight away I`ve never seen such a bad belt it was in squares all around and all I had to do was pull it to take it off, makes you think how many more about like it?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 09:50
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - jc2

Chains don't stretch-the teeth and the numerous pivots in them wear and allow them to elongate-that's why they need a tensioner.Belts normally have reinforcing strands built in to stop any stretch.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 10:17
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - madf

Chains DO stretch.. (I worked for a chainmaker once)..

The pins holding the rollers wear and the links wear in the holes and the rollers wear. Individually the effect is small but with chains of a meter or so in length, you can easily get a 1 cm strecth over the entire length.

Son's 1.0 Yaris had a multi part chain (7? strands). No oil changes for 30k miles meant it stretched a LOT compared to new.

Exacerbated by modern multi cam engines and variable valve timing.. And tenisoners are often oil driven so wear badly with poor oil quality. The sprockets wear as well and wear grooves in the chain rollers.

Stop/start when cold put huge stresses on pins and sprockets - no oil circulation for 0.5secs..

Edited by madf on 15/01/2015 at 10:18

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 11:27
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - Railroad.
Timing chains do stretch and wear over time. Even though the amount may be small the valve timing may move away from the correct setting. What effect will that have on the engine emissions? Modern engine management systems are very sensitive, and emission faults may well be created by incorrect valve timing, even if only slightly.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 12:30
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - Bolt

Chains don't stretch-the teeth and the numerous pivots in them wear and allow them to elongate-that's why they need a tensioner.Belts normally have reinforcing strands built in to stop any stretch.

I didnt say they don`t I said they shouldnt, but belts stretch a fair bit over time reinforced or not, but chains can last a lifetime of an engine, but I`m assuming some are not heat treated to make the metal harder which in most cases apart from as mentioned poor design help to make them last longer

Ford OHV and some Volvo engines had replacement chains regular in the 80`s what with bad chain tensioners wearing

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 12:51
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - skidpan

Ford OHV and some Volvo engines had replacement chains regular in the 80`s what with bad chain tensioners wearing

Ford OHV chains stretched a fair bit and the tensioner pads and snail cams used to wear quite fast. How do I know, I owned various x-flows from the mid 70's through to about 2001. When I was racing we used duplex chains and there were various qualities of those. The best were one piece, the nasty ones had a split link to join them. Fitting new one piece ones was always a struggle, we never used a tensioner until the first rebuild after the chain ahd stretced. But I never had one fail.

Mini chains also stretched but the tensioner rings on those were total rubbish even compared to the Ford one. But again I never had one break.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 17:45
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

the good thing or bad thuing about chains is at least you may hear them rattling and think somethings wrong i dont think you get that with a belt

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 13:08
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - madf

but I`m assuming some are not heat treated to make the metal harder which in most cases apart from as mentioned poor design help to make them last longer

Non heat treated chains would not last 1,000 miles..

I suspect the answer lies in:

1. the design of the chain system vs the loads involved

2. the choice of which grade of steel to use.

3. manufacturing tolerances..

Most chain manufacture is highly automated in huge volumes So I suspect the way people try to save money is: fewer strands oc hain and lower spec materials..As Rover found with the Stag and Mercedes with thir petrol engines, modern engines need a minimum of a duplex arrangement for engines with high outputs. VW are another where I suspect corners were cut too far..

Chain tensioners have been an issue for everyone: cheap usually equals nasty...

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 17:42
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - fishermanferg

well being a biker for 50years shall we say i know a wee bit about chain driven engines although nowadays some modern motorcycles are driven with toothed belts although i must admit i would prefer a duplex or even a triplex chain to a single one

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 15 Jan 2015 18:26
kia carens crdi 2005 - original timing belt - Bolt

well being a biker for 50years shall we say i know a wee bit about chain driven engines although nowadays some modern motorcycles are driven with toothed belts although i must admit i would prefer a duplex or even a triplex chain to a single one

Compared to a belt it should save a bit of room as well, which is what they seem to be aiming at nowadays apart from lightness

Reply | Report as offensive | Link