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Germany is a red herring which tells us nothing about the virtues of EU membership. Those who say 'well it works for Germany' are like those people who believe any football manager given 25 years could achieve what Fergie has done.
Attributing Germany's success to their EU membership ignores the fact they are an economic powerhouse situated in the 'hub' of the continent. They'd be doing just fine - or even better, who knows? - as an independent country.
Surely the more relevant facts are that nearly a third of Eurozone countries have already been bailed out before it's 15 years old. Apart from Germany the entire continent is in deep recession with the Eurozone now far into a scathing depression. Unemployment and poverty are both up as the EU's share of World GDP reduces every single day.
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What I don't follow is why Germany is doing so well in the EU.Maybe because they invested in their people with apprentices given young people a change for a job.Also a fairer voting system IE minority parties have a more say.Nigel Farage has struck a chord with the Brtish people.He is on the same level says it as it is and is upsetting the establishement vieuw.
With other words we know what is best for you,you should know your place and that is below us.Cameron sounds a toff and he is one.>:)
Germqny is doing well because the Euro gives them an artificially low exchange rate: if they still had the Deutschmark it would be valued higher and their exports would be uncompetitive. That's why they are so keen to prop up the Euro, no matter how bad the effects are on other countries.
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I don't see how their exports can be more uncompetative than much of Europe being unable to afford them, as is currently the case. Greeks may have pseudo Deuscht Marks but not many of them, which is as useful as having lots of a cheap currency. You're right though in the sense that the Euro is an ideally valued currency for Germany and indeed the best thing for southern Europe (aside from leaving the Euro) is for the Germans to leave.
The real reason they - not us, never us, it's just 'them' - are so keen to prop up the Euro is because it's a political project. Career politicians will do anything to prop up their project, despite the fact it's categorically failed and has frankly already crashed. When the debtors and the guarantors become the very same people, it's game over.
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Germqny is doing well because the Euro gives them an artificially low exchange rate: if they still had the Deutschmark it would be valued higher and their exports would be uncompetitive. That's why they are so keen to prop up the Euro, no matter how bad the effects are on other countries.
Yes, and they have a constant exchange rate with no uncertainties, which makes trade easier. Since they export so much, they love it.
The only aspect that concerns me is that we have a lot of companies who come here because it is an entry into Europe. Nissan is an example. Were we to leave, they might have second thoughts. Otherwise I think we would be better off having a trading relationship with the EU as per Norway and Switzerland.
There are too many problems with the EU. They are trying to impose regulations on banking that threaten to make the UK uncompetitive. And they are going to impose regulations on plants that might make it impractical for small companies to sell seeds and plants. Then there is - whisper it -- ahem -- immigration - phew - and the Human Rights legislation which means that arresting criminals infringes their human rights (I exaggerate).
If we become a trading partner, we still have to abide by their rules when exporting to them, but internally we can do what we like.
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The only aspect that concerns me is that we have a lot of companies who come here because it is an entry into Europe. Nissan is an example. Were we to leave, they might have second thoughts
Well nobody is talking about leaving Europe, we talk about leaving the European Union. Swiss banks operate in the UK from outside the European Union. My employer buys in American made products via a Malaysian supplier despite neither being in the European Union. As it happens Honda are shedding workers due to EU demand drying up, where as Jaguar are expanding their workforce due to demand from China going bonkers.
If we become a trading partner, we still have to abide by their rules when exporting to them
We have to abide by American regulations when selling to them without paying £53m a day to be outvoted 26 to 1 on the formation of those regulations.
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The only aspect that concerns me is that we have a lot of companies who come here because it is an entry into Europe. Nissan is an example. Were we to leave, they might have second thoughts
Well nobody is talking about leaving Europe, we talk about leaving the European Union. Swiss banks operate in the UK from outside the European Union. My employer buys in American made products via a Malaysian supplier despite neither being in the European Union. As it happens Honda are shedding workers due to EU demand drying up, where as Jaguar are expanding their workforce due to demand from China going bonkers.
You completely miss the point. Some companies choose to build factories here as we are an entry point to the EU i.e. it is easier to sell into Europe. Were we to outside the EU, it would not be as attractive. Demand from China is still small compared to the EU.
If we become a trading partner, we still have to abide by their rules when exporting to them
We have to abide by American regulations when selling to them without paying £53m a day to be outvoted 26 to 1 on the formation of those regulations.
Obviously. Doh!
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Germqny is doing well because the Euro gives them an artificially low exchange rate:
The Euro problem in a nutshell, although not quite that simple. Europe's problem is Germany. The German political setup was rigged by the Allied powers post WWII to prevent any possibility of a repeat of the hyperinflation of the Wiemar republic. The Bundesbank enjoys full independance on monetary policy, with a duty to prevent inflation and this is enshrined in the German constitution.
The effect is that if the European Central Bank were ever to set rates in such a manner as to conflict with the requirements of the Bundesbank, there would be a constitutional crisis in Germany. This led to the situation a few years ago where, with inflation creeping in around Europe and "overheating" in the mediterranean states, everyone knew that the ECB needed to raise interest rates. What they actually did was cut rates, due to the merest hint of a possible recession in DE.
The effect was like pouring petrol on a fire as the overheating economies binged on cheap credit, causing a massive boom and the equally massive bust we're now living with. Worked for Germany though, all that cheap credit got spent on BMWs and Porsches.....
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Those are the important points. The governmental organization will never provide us the opportunity to eliminate their fallback tasks without us pushing it at blade factor, so don't buy into Dave's guarantees. . . . .
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www.surfersrentacar.com.au
Edited by JacksonElan on 14/05/2013 at 07:48
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Germqny is doing well because the Euro gives them an artificially low exchange rate:
The Euro problem in a nutshell, although not quite that simple. Europe's problem is Germany. The German political setup was rigged by the Allied powers post WWII to prevent any possibility of a repeat of the hyperinflation of the Wiemar republic. The Bundesbank enjoys full independance on monetary policy, with a duty to prevent inflation and this is enshrined in the German constitution.
The effect is that if the European Central Bank were ever to set rates in such a manner as to conflict with the requirements of the Bundesbank, there would be a constitutional crisis in Germany. This led to the situation a few years ago where, with inflation creeping in around Europe and "overheating" in the mediterranean states, everyone knew that the ECB needed to raise interest rates. What they actually did was cut rates, due to the merest hint of a possible recession in DE.
The effect was like pouring petrol on a fire as the overheating economies binged on cheap credit, causing a massive boom and the equally massive bust we're now living with. Worked for Germany though, all that cheap credit got spent on BMWs and Porsches.....
I live in Germany and have done for many years and I do not think I have read such rubbish for a long time,could some of the problems have been brought on by greedy bankers in the USA and UK.
Edited by Collos25 on 10/05/2013 at 09:59
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"I live in Germany and have done for many years and I do not think I have read such rubbish for a long time..."
The fact that you live in Germany does not in itself qualify you to dismiss the argument as "rubbish". I'm interested in this discussion and I want to hear reasoned arguments. What is wrong, exactly, with the points made?
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The unpalatable 'leaders' of the European Union like to blame the United States for the fact Greece & Germany can't use the same currency but the irony is the EU bases (or believes it does) its ambitions on the very America they hate.
I don't care about the Bundesbank. What I'm more interested in is the fact the European Central Bank is backed by the taxpayers of Europe, with Italy - also the most indebted Eurozone country - being the biggest paymaster of it.
How has nobody else realised the debtors on these loans are also the guarantors?
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Let's have this referendum soon and have a vote either in or out.The politicians can explain what it will mean to the British people in simple language regarding jobs,the social chapter and how it will effect our lives good or bad.We can't have it both ways we are either part of this union or not.Italy and Greece should have never joined weak economies and to much corruption.Wasn't this crisis caused by the banking system in the first place? And jo blogs is paying the price with job losses and a uncertain future.The credit crisis started in the US Jamie with morgages people couldn't afford to pay because of no assets.The Americans are printing money like there is no tomorrow it is a false economy.The Germans won't go that way they have been there before and a barrow load of money got you a loaf of bread.I have not much faith in President Barack Obama,a good actor at best.Just my penny for what its worth.
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Wasn't this crisis caused by the banking system in the first place? And jo blogs is paying the price with job losses and a uncertain future.
Well that's the line of the media and - curiously - the very same politicians who spent the previous decade at champagne dinners with the very same bankers. Remember Gordon Brown opening the London branch of Lehmanns?
The reality is more complicated. Of course big banks leveraged themselves badly, became too dependent on credit and exposed themselves to ridiculous problems. A few of them even broke the law and manipulated lending rates but the role of both national and international Government is more frightening to me.
A few weeks ago we saw a combination of the European Central Bank, International Monetary Fund and - my old favourite - the unelected European Commission literally steal money from citizens bank accounts in Cyprus. The IMF has been hijacked as an American based Eurozone bailout office and representatives from all three have removed democratic Italian & Greek leaders to seize control those countries. It's amazing how little we talk about these things considering how much we talk about financiers losing Knighthoods.
It is Government who took the likes of Greece, Spain & Italy into the Euro without asking their public first, condemning the people of those countries to poverty, unemployment and (in the case of Greece & Italy) a total loss of democratic control of their destiny. When 'Thatcher shut down the mines' we had to hear about it for 30+ years, yet EU environmental legislation shutting down profitable steel plants & aluminium smelters in Britain barely gets a mention.
The credit crisis started in the US Jamie with morgages people couldn't afford to pay because of no assets.
We had it over here too; little banks lending 125% mortgages at 9x salary which people were stupid to take out and banks were stupid to lend. All of it was encouraged and backed up by Government who couldn't do enough to facilitate the death spiral of credit. Those same Governments now tell us they have the solutions.
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The reality is more complicated. Of course big banks leveraged themselves badly, became too dependent on credit and exposed themselves to ridiculous problems. A few of them even broke the law and manipulated lending rates but the role of both national and international Government is more frightening to me.
No. The problem was primarily one of bad debt. American financial institutions sold mortgages to people who could not pay. And that debt was sold to banks, and other financial institutions, in America and round the world. And when it became clear that a lot of the debt was near worthless, confidence collapsed, as no-one knew which institutions might collapse. Fortunately Gordon Brown saved the world.
And then there were the usual problem of bubbles. Ireland had a huge housing boom, which burst. And Gordon Brown increased public spending to huge levels.
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