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Thanks - it would be nice to see what the realities of the situation are, rather than all of us endlessly speculating. Hopefully some good ideas can arise from this process that will contribute to the business staying afloat and prospering in the future, especially as so many other websites and forums across many fields and passtimes have struggled and gone to the wall in the last few years.
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Avant,
Would it be possible to combine this thread with the one I started on Motoring Discussion?
I only posted there because General Discussion doesn't get the footfall of Motoring Discussion or Technical. Not bothered where they go but seems silly to have both running.
Edited by Chris M on 15/01/2020 at 13:02
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I hope the situation has a remedy. This forum is quite unique in many ways. I think it was mid 2000's when I first found it. Can't remember why or why I first posted, but since then I have been fairly regularly reading and posting on the forum. To state the obvious we all agree that the level of experience and technical advice related through the forum is excellent. It would certainly be a pity if it were diminished or disappeared. As Avant points out, administration is simply that for now. I have worked for companies who went through administration and came out the other end(not unknown in construction!!) and hope for a good outcome. As we also know income is the lifeblood of any company, this is no different. If costs cannot be met then a solution needs to be found. Let us watch this space. Cheers Concrete
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Many thanks for all the supportive posts. I've spoken to Dan Powell, our Managing Editor, and he has sent me an Email with some answers to FAQs provided by the administrators, which we hope will be helpful. He's promised to let me know as and when there is more news, but very much joins me in emphasising that it's business as usual.
Has Honest John closed down?
No, the business has not closed down and it is continuing to operate as normal.
But hasn’t the business gone into administration?
Yes, the business did go into administration at the beginning of January but this does not mean it has closed down. The Joint Administrators are marketing the business for sale and while the sale process takes place it is business as usual. Honest John is a fantastic business and we’re confident a buyer can be found. The sale process will be ongoing throughout January so we’ll be in a better position to provide an update on the next steps at the end of the month.
Why did the business go into administration?
We understand the business had faced significant cash flow difficulties, which led it to enter administration, but the administrators will release further details in their reports in due course.
Does this mean it is not a sound investment opportunity?
No, while the business had faced some cash flow difficulties this was not a result of business performance and we believe it is still a great investment opportunity. Honest John is a trusted source of information for consumers wishing to purchase a new car and it has a loyal customer base – for example, it attracts more than 20 million users a year, has more than 400,000 registered readers and more than 70,000 newsletter subscribers.
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Does anyone want to make an offer? Maybe a crowd funding opportunity?
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I was going to suggest that the Daily Telegraph might be interested, but then I remembered that it's up for sale............:-)
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I was going to suggest that the Daily Telegraph might be interested, but then I remembered that it's up for sale............:-)
Besides, they shafted HJ (IMHO) by reducing his collumn and sidelining him more generally in favour of more manufacturer-friendly (again, my opinion) 'reviews' and commentary. Barely anyone now reads the rest of the Motoring section - and those of us who do often get (mildly critical) comments deleted by the DT mdoerators for deigning to call out the shills with evidence.
Newspapers certainly aren't the model that this website should be looking to - The Telegraph actually gets lower viewcounts on their YouTube videos than HJ does, and by some margin too.
I suspect there'll be some buy-out from some up-and-coming motoring journo who may want the existing customer base to help further their career without having to go through the rigmarole of setting up a comprehensive website/review database and spending a lot on publicity to attract punters. If not, why not give James May a call?
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Does anyone want to make an offer? Maybe a crowd funding opportunity?
Put money into a failing business model you mean? no unless someone has a valid plan for fixing the problem.
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Engineer Andy mentioned the Motoring Section in the Telegraph. I only get the Saturday Telegraph these days( too busy being retired to read newspapers) and the 'section' is barely worthy of the name. 10 to 15 minutes reading. Sometimes not even that if they are reviewing a £90K car I will never buy. HJ's Q&A is the best part and still good, especially the bylines at the top of each question. I would have thought there would be enough of our generation and younger who would be interested in genuine comment and opinion as opposed to the hyperbole in most magazines. Still as long as the forum can keep going I will be happy.
Cheers Concrete
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Engineer Andy mentioned the Motoring Section in the Telegraph. I only get the Saturday Telegraph these days( too busy being retired to read newspapers) and the 'section' is barely worthy of the name. 10 to 15 minutes reading. Sometimes not even that if they are reviewing a £90K car I will never buy. HJ's Q&A is the best part and still good, especially the bylines at the top of each question. I would have thought there would be enough of our generation and younger who would be interested in genuine comment and opinion as opposed to the hyperbole in most magazines. Still as long as the forum can keep going I will be happy.
Cheers Concrete
Exactly - the Telegraph Editors appear to believe every Telegraph reader/online subscriber earns well in excess of £100k and only buys cars well over £40k, and then mostly German sports saloons or uber hot hatches. The same goes for their holidays section, never mind the 'fashion' bit I would never venture into.
The occasional days when they bother to review 'ordinary' cars, they trash them for being 'boring' and 'not quick' - I mean are they expecting their trousers to catch fire or have some moment of extasy every time they turn the engine on one of these cars?
This is one of the main reasons I come here - we actually get unbiased reviews of ALL cars, plus we can discuss all issues surrounding motoring, inclduing news items, something that the Telegraph (and many other national newspapers) rarely do or with any degree of accuracy very often.
TBH, I would rather the Telegraph drop most of its 'ancillary' sections of fluff and concentrate on decent reporting of real news and commentary, drop its subscription prices accordingly and HJ's website thrives under a part (small) subscription, part (not over-the-top/intrusive) ad-reveneue model.
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Yes the DT is not what it was but this is the way of most print journalism these days. For example The Sunday Times motoring section is equally biased towards exotica and has shrunk too. Hard copy production no longer generates the same profits and ad revenue it once did so papers shrink.
I still enjoy the DT as a paper and the full online edition has everything that appears in the print edition at a much cheaper price. Full online price is £200 pa. There are often offers for new subs such as £75 Amazon vouchers or, currently, a free Fitbit with a retail price of £199 (or £150 on Amazon). As the marginal additional cost of each sub is virtually zero they can afford these offers in the hope that people will not cancel their full price sub next year.
As for HJ I hope it continues here but traffic volumes have slipped markedly since September according to online monitoring services.
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I was one of the first to subscribe to their online service, actually before you needed to pay, and thus get around a 20% discount (it was much more only 2-3 years ago - I only paid £40pa for the website and app) for now just the website only.
Given the hard copy daily paper (which has far less content than online) costs £2 on weekdays and £2.50 on weekends, £80 is excellent value by just comparing the level of content.
Unfortunately its the quality of the content that has taken a serious downturn, mainly after (IMHO) the Barcaly Bros bought it and many of the 'Old Guard' high quality journalists were either let go, expected to work as freelancers or write puff pieces/less proper journalistic articles. Many other newspapers have gone the same way and are equally struggling.
A lot of the cause, and this makes a big difference here on this website, is the rise of (un)social media generally, taking young people's gaze away from traditional forms of media and news (including TV).
It is very noticeable how less and less younger people are willing to expend more than a few moments of their time and make any kind of effort to discuss or read up on issues or gather information (I swa this get worse and worse at work as an engineer over my 18 years as one): if they can't find it via Siri/Alexa or is on page 1 of a Google search, then they can't be asked, and because they don't discuss this sort of thing with their peers, they only drop in here with silly questions after they made a really dumb decision as regards a purchase, etc, often getting angry and defensive at us when we point out the problem and the solution. The same goes with newspaper reader commentary areas - they are now like a virtual school playground with nasty insults and lies thrown around.
As such, as we get older, there is less and less people to fill the gaps from those 'not here' any more. Its also why those outlets currently pandering to the lowest common denominator aren't doing too badly, because the short attention span and need for an excitement high is what the under 35 generation is all about these days.
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Among the not so young there's also a growing number who have given up entirely on our mainstream news media, whether printed or broadcast, for a variety of reasons based around they can no longer be trusted or believed and long ago gave up any pretense of impartiality, no more is this the case as with the state broadcaster, the USA has exactly the same problems.
In my case i gave up on the printed press decades ago and the main broadcast media not long after, in fact its now several years since i watched any terrestrial broadcast of any type, i will not be going back, and as for paying for warped biased articles presented as news, not a chance.
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Increasingly a car is now a "white goods". There are few really rubbish cars, new cars are "sealed for life don't mess with them" appliances, so few and few people are interested in reading about them. It's a declining audience driven only by image and fashion.
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Increasingly a car is now a "white goods". There are few really rubbish cars, new cars are "sealed for life don't mess with them" appliances, so few and few people are interested in reading about them. It's a declining audience driven only by image and fashion.
Glad to see i was right then...
Sadly. the Weekly HJ replies bit is virtually a rehash of previous weeks...
"My DQ200 gearbox has failed at 3 years and 2 hours and VAG won't fix it" or somesuch.
"My 1.5 tsi is kangarooing down the road"
"My 1.2 TSI has snapped thr cam chain"
and on and on. (other makes are available, usually european.)
I am beiginning to hope that the MG will be my last purchase...
so even reading the agony column is getting less interesting.
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This probably happens because people keep asking the same questions! They don't think to look at the Ask HJ section of the site.
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Sadly, people just want instant answers and can't be bothered to do any research of their own, even though it's never been easier to do just that. The other influence is social media, where people's desire for instant info is fed by ignorant so-called friends who don't have a clue about anything.
Truth and reality have never been so blurred.
Edited by FP on 17/01/2020 at 11:14
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Well, I'm sure if the number of MG sales in the UK gets into double figures, someone will be onto the DT moaning about one.
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Well, I'm sure if the number of MG sales in the UK gets into double figures, someone will be onto the DT moaning about one.
My moaning is in the owners reviw section, but MG sorted it... unlike some...1.5tsi... it's charactaristic sir.....Oh you mean you expect the car to last more than 24 hours after the warranty has expired.. Sorry, now buy another one of our heaps of ....
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Yes those questions in the column are sadly predictable, why people insist on considering buying cars with gearboxes made of cheese, EGR's stuffed in the most idiotic of places, ill designed Diesels likely to grenade at any moment, and all by makers who wash their hands of the things 5 minutes after their short warranty expires i cannot comprehend.
How does HJ keep himself from telling these convinced-by-advertising buyers to buck their ideas up, smell the coffee and give their hard earned to companies who value their own reputations as well as their customers...more to the point how in the days of the internet do so many people have no clue what they might be buying into when 10 minutes research should put anyone with an ounce of sense off the worse examples permanently, its not as if buying one of the worse examples means a £50 bill when it goes wrong, we're talking repair (though in some cases its a new unit only) costs in £thousands and possible premature economic scrapping of the vehicle.
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Increasingly a car is now a "white goods". There are few really rubbish cars, new cars are "sealed for life don't mess with them" appliances, so few and few people are interested in reading about them. It's a declining audience driven only by image and fashion.
Glad to see i was right then...
Sadly. the Weekly HJ replies bit is virtually a rehash of previous weeks...
"My DQ200 gearbox has failed at 3 years and 2 hours and VAG won't fix it" or somesuch.
"My 1.5 tsi is kangarooing down the road"
"My 1.2 TSI has snapped thr cam chain"
and on and on. (other makes are available, usually european.)
I am beiginning to hope that the MG will be my last purchase...
so even reading the agony column is getting less interesting.
What's amazing is how many of these dopes either don't know or can't be asked to use this website's 'search' function (or do the same on the Telegraph) to find the answer they want in 5 minutes, rather than waste HJ's time in asking the same question many people did the previous week. What happened to people 'doing their homework' before asking a question?
Again, not HJ's fault, but society's. I see much the same in the Telegraph's consumer 'agony' collumn with naive fools (and not just OAPs who may not be up on the latest tech or news and may be a bit forgetful and trusting) making such basic mistakes and expecting to get away with it, often demanding compensation (paid for by the rest of us via government or high prices if sought from a firm) for their stupid behaviour.
The daft thing is that most of them aren't what you'd call 'intellectually challenged', more of an 'Oliver Letwin' type (read up on how he naively let in two people who then robbed him).
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Increasingly a car is now a "white goods". There are few really rubbish cars, new cars are "sealed for life don't mess with them" appliances, so few and few people are interested in reading about them. It's a declining audience driven only by image and fashion.
Glad to see i was right then...
Sadly. the Weekly HJ replies bit is virtually a rehash of previous weeks...
"My DQ200 gearbox has failed at 3 years and 2 hours and VAG won't fix it" or somesuch.
"My 1.5 tsi is kangarooing down the road"
"My 1.2 TSI has snapped thr cam chain"
and on and on. (other makes are available, usually european.)
I am beiginning to hope that the MG will be my last purchase...
so even reading the agony column is getting less interesting.
What's amazing is how many of these dopes either don't know or can't be asked to use this website's 'search' function (or do the same on the Telegraph) to find the answer they want in 5 minutes, rather than waste HJ's time in asking the same question many people did the previous week. What happened to people 'doing their homework' before asking a question?
Again, not HJ's fault, but society's. I see much the same in the Telegraph's consumer 'agony' collumn with naive fools (and not just OAPs who may not be up on the latest tech or news and may be a bit forgetful and trusting) making such basic mistakes and expecting to get away with it, often demanding compensation (paid for by the rest of us via government or high prices if sought from a firm) for their stupid behaviour.
The daft thing is that most of them aren't what you'd call 'intellectually challenged', more of an 'Oliver Letwin' type (read up on how he naively let in two people who then robbed him).
All too often they do research in an owner's forum or a general car forum, and they are told "The Carpotronic gearbox is amazing, the HardRide (TM) drive flat tyres are so bouncey, and the SolidSpankyTat seats are sooooo comfy". Then they discover that the information is wrong, because reports from one or two people tell you little about reliability or are too subjective. And if you try and argue rationally you are told that you are ignorant or a troll.
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All too often they do research in an owner's forum or a general car forum, and they are told "The Carpotronic gearbox is amazing, the HardRide (TM) drive flat tyres are so bouncey, and the SolidSpankyTat seats are sooooo comfy". Then they discover that the information is wrong, because reports from one or two people tell you little about reliability or are too subjective. And if you try and argue rationally you are told that you are ignorant or a troll.
:-) Nice.
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Among the not so young there's also a growing number who have given up entirely on our mainstream news media, whether printed or broadcast, for a variety of reasons based around they can no longer be trusted or believed and long ago gave up any pretense of impartiality, no more is this the case as with the state broadcaster, the USA has exactly the same problems.
In my case i gave up on the printed press decades ago and the main broadcast media not long after, in fact its now several years since i watched any terrestrial broadcast of any type, i will not be going back, and as for paying for warped biased articles presented as news, not a chance.
You have mentioned this a lot but never said where you do get your news from now...so where do you get it from?
Also the BBC is not a state broadcaster - I have mentioned that to you before but you still say it - do you not like the truth?
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There is only one way to use news media, and that's to read all of it, from extreme to middle ground to other extreme, and then make a balanced judgement on what's most likely.
Some people have an opinion, and if reality does not fit that opinion they refuse to accept it, or only read the media that supports that view. Plenty of outlets exist on that basis.
As per motoring media, we people on here have a view, and are prepared to push it, however we are the exception, the extremes, our experiences are probably not the norm or the real picture, the majority are not bothered either way or even affected. In short we are of no consequence or representative in or of the real world.
Edited by knowwun on 17/01/2020 at 14:12
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I guess I may have been one of the earlier readers to have mentioned the problems with the VW group 1,5tsi engine www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/127714/skoda-karoq--
Following that, I kept an eye on the motoring press but only HJ prodded sufficiently to get VW to admit to their failings. It was subsequently assumed that the rest of the media did not want to upset VW for fear of losing advertising revenue and that is why the problems hadn't been more widely reported.
Whenever you write to a general motoring forum, you get a blend of replies - occasionally from people who know what they're talking about but, to contribute and receive reliable information, I have more recently been visiting a site more in line with my particular make/model of car.
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Among the not so young there's also a growing number who have given up entirely on our mainstream news media, whether printed or broadcast, for a variety of reasons based around they can no longer be trusted or believed and long ago gave up any pretense of impartiality, no more is this the case as with the state broadcaster, the USA has exactly the same problems.
In my case i gave up on the printed press decades ago and the main broadcast media not long after, in fact its now several years since i watched any terrestrial broadcast of any type, i will not be going back, and as for paying for warped biased articles presented as news, not a chance.
You have mentioned this a lot but never said where you do get your news from now...so where do you get it from?
Also the BBC is not a state broadcaster - I have mentioned that to you before but you still say it - do you not like the truth?
What we have to do is be very selective about reading articles on newspaper and TV news websites - often just a change from one journo to another makes a huge difference in the quality and truthfullness (lack of agenda) in an article.
I have now started to get some of my news from other news sources than The Telegraph, for example - sometimes the BBC is still fine, though not often (it really depends on the subject - an uncontrovercial or non-woke one, for example), I also go to podcast news, e.g. Subverse (run by Tim Pool).
At present there is no 'alternative' to the DT that isn't either much the same or more establishment leaning and expensive (The Times, and I'm not paying £££ for both), and the Daily Wail, Express and Current Bun aren't exactly 'quality reads' (some nice pictures though!) for the right-of-centre person. Lots of decent commentary on the news though to be found on the Interweb, especially via YT etc. For those of a left-leaning persuasion, I suspect they have a bit more choice with papers and that, for the moment (until they fold, as is happening in the US), no paywalls. Whether they think such outlets are any good, I don't know.
IMHO, SKY News have just gone off their rocker and become activist and virtue-signalling news, rather like CNN has done in the US. How they've got away with this, I don't know, but then the BBC does to a reasonable degree and Channel 4 blatantly has been doing so for best part of 25 years, in my view. ITV News is ok, but a bit too tabloid for me. Most TV news doesn't go into depth on stories because they just don't have the time and resources, unless the story is a sensation.
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Sign of the times, no Agony column this week....
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If you are not going to get paid, why bother?
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Sign of the times, no Agony column this week....
Oh yeah. I noticed that HJ was previously posting them earlier and earlier in the week, rather than late on Friday or early Saturday morning, last week's coming in on Wednesday that week. Well, he could be just a bit late this time, after all, it is supposed to be for Saturday...
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If you want "raw" news you can go to the Daily Mail.
Ha, ha but true.
Put in appropriate search terms and more often than not you will get the agency feeds.
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Among the not so young there's also a growing number who have given up entirely on our mainstream news media, whether printed or broadcast, for a variety of reasons based around they can no longer be trusted or believed and long ago gave up any pretense of impartiality, no more is this the case as with the state broadcaster, the USA has exactly the same problems.
In my case i gave up on the printed press decades ago and the main broadcast media not long after, in fact its now several years since i watched any terrestrial broadcast of any type, i will not be going back, and as for paying for warped biased articles presented as news, not a chance.
You have mentioned this a lot but never said where you do get your news from now...so where do you get it from?
Also the BBC is not a state broadcaster - I have mentioned that to you before but you still say it - do you not like the truth?
It is state funded which gives it huge advantages over competitors, and it pushes its own liberal (small s) agenda. As an example, the news web site is obsessed with transgender issues. How many stories do you see directly relevant to blind people? Or deaf people? Or elderly people? A tiny number whereas there are transgender stories on the main page almost every day. Auntie Beeb has become a political campaigner of sorts. The content of a story is reasonably balanced, but the selection of stories aint.
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Also the BBC is not a state broadcaster - I have mentioned that to you before but you still say it - do you not like the truth?
It is state funded which gives it huge advantages over competitors, and it pushes its own liberal (small s) agenda. As an example, the news web site is obsessed with transgender issues. How many stories do you see directly relevant to blind people? Or deaf people? Or elderly people? A tiny number whereas there are transgender stories on the main page almost every day. Auntie Beeb has become a political campaigner of sorts. The content of a story is reasonably balanced, but the selection of stories aint.
You have hit the nail on the head, the BBC will always have its defenders, mainly those who agree with its agenda.
Selection of Question Time audiences was heavily biased for years, as has been publicity given to any number of PC and left wing activists.
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I take it by PC you mean so called 'politically correct'?
Anybody using that phrase, or it's handmaiden 'virtue signalling', has no real argument, just a set of prejudices.
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The modern usage of the term " not politically correct" is a well known means of shutting down debate or discussion of a subject that the liberal left doesn't want discussed.
Virtue signalling is just another way of saying "a display of piety"
But saying that wouldn't be PC would it?
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The modern usage of the term " not politically correct" is a well known means of shutting down debate or discussion of a subject that the liberal left doesn't want discussed.
That's not by experience, though it might be close to original meaning in (I think) Mao's China.
It's modern usage is pejorative so as to deride, for example, measures designed to achieve equality of the races or sexes, including LGBT.
Virtue signalling is just another way of saying "a display of piety"
Sort of, but again the usage is pejorative.
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The modern usage of the term " not politically correct" is a well known means of shutting down debate or discussion of a subject that the liberal left doesn't want discussed.
That's not by experience, though it might be close to original meaning in (I think) Mao's China.
It's modern usage is pejorative so as to deride, for example, measures designed to achieve equality of the races or sexes, including LGBT.
I disagree. See below.
Virtue signalling is just another way of saying "a display of piety"
Sort of, but again the usage is pejorative.
There were serious issues of inequality, and PC meant showing respect and manners for diverse groups. Now PC seems to be more about conforming to what sometimes seems like an extreme agenda and if you don't you risk being bullied even in areas that are contentious.
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<< You have hit the nail on the head, the BBC will always have its defenders, mainly those who agree with its agenda. >>
I don't wish to complain about any topic preferences TV channels may seem to have, but I sometimes wonder about the (non-cosmetic) make-up of the presenters. If we are to assume those should be a representative sample of the UK population, either I live in an atypical part of the country, or other parts are very ethnically diverse. The male/female ratio looks reasonable (tho their pay may not be) but I can't help thinking that there has been a lot of PC hiring, or else white A-S Brits just don't apply for jobs in any number. They all do their jobs perfectly, but in some ways Al Jazeera can look just as British :-)
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I think we're starting to get off topic here folks.
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I think we're starting to get off topic here folks.
No s*** Sherlock, always happens....
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I think we're starting to get off topic here folks.
Why do people feel the need to post when a topic goes off topic? Do you think no one else will have noticed?
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I think we're starting to get off topic here folks.
That's what happens in a General Discussion ?
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I think we're starting to get off topic here folks.
That's what happens in a General Discussion ?
Only if the header of that thread says 'Anything Goes' or suchlike. The general discussion area is for non-motoring topics, but topics nonetheless.
Given that we were trying to discuss teh reasons why this website has been (presumably) struggling a bit in recent years and coming up with the reasons why we believe that and suggestions as to how to keep it going and improve (including its financial position/viability), heading off to something about gender and the BBC isn't really conducive to helping HJ & Co, is it?
This could also be why some people are turned off coming here and participating (and I'm not saying I haven't strayed myself on occasion - we've all done it, but perhaps we need to think about the consequences of straying into a full-on political debate this often.
Jus' sayin'.
Edited by Engineer Andy on 19/01/2020 at 16:39
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Jus' sayin'.
You're happy enough adding your own rightish slant to posts on here and repeatedly express your own views, which others might say were prejudices, about (amongst others) public servants and migrants. .
It's a wee bit rich to complain when other folks respond.
Jus' sayin'.
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Jus' sayin'.
You're happy enough adding your own rightish slant to posts on here and repeatedly express your own views, which others might say were prejudices, about (amongst others) public servants and migrants. .
It's a wee bit rich to complain when other folks respond.
Jus' sayin'.
Bromp - I'm unsure why you took this as a personal sleight on you and your politics - it wasn't, especially as I didn't mention anyone by name or directly replied to your post. In fact it was somebody else who brought up identity politics and I was saying, generally, for the good of this website, could we all please stay on the topic at hand, given without this website and forum you wouldn't be able to discuss and read about motoring issues in such depth and for free. Pointless petty bickering about issues nothing to do with the future of the website does nothing to help and takes away from the imporatnt issue at hand.
We can discuss politics on another thread. My comments about younger people as regards not really playing much of a full role on this website/forum was an indictment on society in general and how it has changed in the last 20 years, which is just as much the fault of politicians from both sides and business as it is everyone in the wider society.
I was trying to start a conversation as regards not just keep existing users, but attracting new ones, which will be very difficult given what has become of our younger generations.
Edited by Engineer Andy on 20/01/2020 at 15:20
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I never get too worried about 'thread drift': it happens, just as it does in a conversation, especially one with someone whose company you're enjoying.
The original topic was getting to the stage where anything that needed to be said has been said, so things move on with no harm done.
But by all means start a new thread if you think that a new topic is worth discussing in its own right.
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I never get too worried about 'thread drift': it happens, just as it does in a conversation, especially one with someone whose company you're enjoying.
The original topic was getting to the stage where anything that needed to be said has been said, so things move on with no harm done.
But by all means start a new thread if you think that a new topic is worth discussing in its own right.
The thing is that I believe some new members may not like it when such an important topic goes off topic, and specifically into identity politics (on both sides), when, frankly, the discussion has little relevance to the very important issue at hand.
I agree that normally it would matter less, but in this case, the issue is of high importance and I think we need to concentrate on that.
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"The thing is that I believe some new members may not like it when such an important topic goes off topic, and specifically into identity politics (on both sides), when, frankly, the discussion has little relevance to the very important issue at hand.
I agree that normally it would matter less, but in this case, the issue is of high importance and I think we need to concentrate on that."
The fact is that there is nothing left to discuss. We have been given as much (or as little) information as is available and there has been some speculation. What else is there to say?
And I wouldn't exercise myself over "new members" - they probably won't be very interested in a site whose days may be numbered and one of the main issues is that the number of active members of the BR Forum is probably quite small. In addition, if the numbers of visits to the site generally are fairly low, this would account for the weak financial position of the HJ website.
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The thing is that I believe some new members may not like it when such an important topic goes off topic, and specifically into identity politics (on both sides), when, frankly, the discussion has little relevance to the very important issue at hand.
I would respectfully disagree. I don't think, given the 'Telegraph factor' it's all that surprising that this thread strayed into a discussion of the media. There are several posters here who are quite willing to add a little bit of spice by way of politics or 'facts' that are open to question and provided it doesn't get out of hand or become a hamster wheel of repetition there's no harm in debating those issues.
Unlike some other fora we're pretty good at keeping it civil - even when people talk nonsense :-P.
Most new posters are in the motoring, technical and legal sections with questions of one sort or another. Those of us in here being 'old hands' and I honestly cannot see even a newbie being such a shrinking violet that a bit of robust debate will put them off.
If Avant thinks it's going too far then, as we've seen occasionally, he will say so.
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The thing is that I believe some new members may not like it when such an important topic goes off topic, and specifically into identity politics (on both sides), when, frankly, the discussion has little relevance to the very important issue at hand.
I would respectfully disagree. I don't think, given the 'Telegraph factor' it's all that surprising that this thread strayed into a discussion of the media. There are several posters here who are quite willing to add a little bit of spice by way of politics or 'facts' that are open to question and provided it doesn't get out of hand or become a hamster wheel of repetition there's no harm in debating those issues.
Unlike some other fora we're pretty good at keeping it civil - even when people talk nonsense :-P.
Most new posters are in the motoring, technical and legal sections with questions of one sort or another. Those of us in here being 'old hands' and I honestly cannot see even a newbie being such a shrinking violet that a bit of robust debate will put them off.
If Avant thinks it's going too far then, as we've seen occasionally, he will say so.
If that's the case, why are many other forums and websites disappearing, not just related to motoring, but across many subjects and in the media in general? If, as some say, there's nothing more to say on the original subject of this thread, then we may as well just twiddle our thumbs. I mean, why try and come up with good ideas and solutions when we can proverbially fiddle why Rome burns?
That 'other' website (or one of them) previously mentioned doesn't seem to be particularly 'lively' with activity either, something I've noticed across many websites and forums these days. Are we happy the (un)social media, with all its terrible flaws, has essentially taken over and is sucking the lifeblood out of discussing issues and even news and reviews?
Because the quality of those services does not in any way match what we have here, and yet plenty of us here seem to be shugging their shoulders as if they don't care two hoots whether the site survives or not, much less have an idea or two.
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"Because the quality of those services does not in any way match what we have here, and yet plenty of us here seem to be shugging their shoulders as if they don't care two hoots whether the site survives or not, much less have an idea or two."
A dig at me, I assume. It's not that I "don't care two hoots", as you seem to think, but rather that I'm being practical. If there's something that any of us (the members and contributors to the Back Room) can do about the whole HJ website, I don't see it.
You seems to have a lot of words - "full of sound and fury" - so why not give us your solution?
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"Because the quality of those services does not in any way match what we have here, and yet plenty of us here seem to be shugging their shoulders as if they don't care two hoots whether the site survives or not, much less have an idea or two."
A dig at me, I assume. It's not that I "don't care two hoots", as you seem to think, but rather that I'm being practical. If there's something that any of us (the members and contributors to the Back Room) can do about the whole HJ website, I don't see it.
You seems to have a lot of words - "full of sound and fury" - so why not give us your solution?
I already did give my thoughts on possible solutions, here and on the now locked parallel thread on the Motoring Discussion area. Perhaps you missed them.
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"I already did give my thoughts on possible solutions, here and on the now locked parallel thread on the Motoring Discussion area. Perhaps you missed them."
Indeed you did and I had. However, an awful lot of what you have contributed to this thread is, as I said above, very wordy. (There doesn't seem to be anything about solutions in the other thread.)
Having ploughed through them all, it seems your solution seems to be (a) make the advertising more intrusive and (b) make the site subscription-only, or a combination of the two. But you don't seem enthusiastic about either.
You'll forgive me for my own lack of enthusiasm here.
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Actually I wanted the ads to be less, not more intrusive, becaue doing so meant many of us installed ad blockers so the intrusive (system resources hungry) ads did not slow down our computers, especially tablets and smartphones. As regards a subscription service - I'd rather pay a very small amount for a decent website/service.
As I said, at least I was making suggestions. I mean, someone has to pay for this all. The days of everything being free on the Interweb are almost over.
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If we are to assume those should be a representative sample of the UK population, either I live in an atypical part of the country, or other parts are very ethnically diverse.
There will be published statistics that show percentage of Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) people amongst presenters. If you tell us where you live then we can see how diverse it is or is not from census returns.
In terms of news output a lot of foreign reporting, particularly in Asia and Africa, once done by white people, mostly men (and yes Kate Adie!!) is now covered by locally recruited staff which will also make a difference.
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<< In terms of news output a lot of foreign reporting, particularly in Asia and Africa, once done by white people, mostly men (and yes Kate Adie!!) is now covered by locally recruited staff which will also make a difference. >>
Yes, of course there are local reporters from all over the globe. I was referring just to the faces we are familiar with in the home studio. I have no objection to anyone doing that job properly; I just have a feeling that there may have been a bit of eagerly positive discrimination.
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<< You have hit the nail on the head, the BBC will always have its defenders, mainly those who agree with its agenda. >>
I don't wish to complain about any topic preferences TV channels may seem to have, but I sometimes wonder about the (non-cosmetic) make-up of the presenters. If we are to assume those should be a representative sample of the UK population, either I live in an atypical part of the country, or other parts are very ethnically diverse. The male/female ratio looks reasonable (tho their pay may not be) but I can't help thinking that there has been a lot of PC hiring, or else white A-S Brits just don't apply for jobs in any number. They all do their jobs perfectly, but in some ways Al Jazeera can look just as British :-)
I don't really have an issue if for example there is an over abundance of perma tans among the staff as long as hiring is based on merit. However when I listen to R4, there is an overabundance of privately educated posh people and certain accepted accents. Thus a strong posh West Indian accent is present, but no strong Northern accent, or West Country or Norfolk. The BBC seems to have strong biases away from 'common' British accents as if a West Indian accent is 'oh so diverse darling' but a Yorkshire one would be 'oh so horribly working class darling'. Some hail the presence of Mishal Hussain on R4 but she is just another upper class privately educated person to add to the long list. And I happen to think she is a rather poor interviewer, but that's an aside.
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<< when I listen to R4, there is an overabundance of privately educated posh people and certain accepted accents. Thus a strong posh West Indian accent is present, but no strong Northern accent, or West Country or Norfolk >>
R4 is a relatively 'posh' channel (which I admit I listen to now and then). But if you listen to R1 or R2 I guess the accents may be different.
I don't think it's a question of radio, more an unwritten assumption that accents from (for example) Glasgow, Liverpool, Birmingham are 'common' compared to (say) Edinburgh or Lancashire.
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You have hit the nail on the head, the BBC will always have its defenders, mainly those who agree with its agenda.
So what exactly is its agenda? Give some specifics.
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Edited by knowwun on 18/01/2020 at 20:00
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Among the not so young there's also a growing number who have given up entirely on our mainstream news media, whether printed or broadcast, for a variety of reasons based around they can no longer be trusted or believed and long ago gave up any pretense of impartiality, no more is this the case as with the state broadcaster, the USA has exactly the same problems.
In my case i gave up on the printed press decades ago and the main broadcast media not long after, in fact its now several years since i watched any terrestrial broadcast of any type, i will not be going back, and as for paying for warped biased articles presented as news, not a chance.
You have mentioned this a lot but never said where you do get your news from now...so where do you get it from?
Also the BBC is not a state broadcaster - I have mentioned that to you before but you still say it - do you not like the truth?
It is state funded which gives it huge advantages over competitors, and it pushes its own liberal (small s) agenda. As an example, the news web site is obsessed with transgender issues. How many stories do you see directly relevant to blind people? Or deaf people? Or elderly people? A tiny number whereas there are transgender stories on the main page almost every day. Auntie Beeb has become a political campaigner of sorts. The content of a story is reasonably balanced, but the selection of stories aint.
Just looked at news website and no trans gender stories at all today...people often notice what they don't like. Over a day the BBC will have a variety of news which relates to different people....but of course they can only report the news so if there is no news that directly relates to blind people then they can't report it. How often would you expect a story that mainly relates to blind people to occur?
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Just looked at news website and no trans gender stories at all today.
Lots of reasons why Transgender stories crop up not least of which is that there is still widespread prejudice and discrimination. In last day or two we've had a news item about a person turned down for a job explicitly because they were trans. We know that because somebody in the recruiting employer blew the whistle.
There's an ongoing debate about the issue of Gender Recognition Certificates and whether the legislation allowing them, which seemed ground breaking when it was passed, it still fit for purpose. What about trans teenagers and per-teens? Lots of controversy about numbers, particularly girls wanting to be male, treatment or whether the condition should be recognised before adulthood.
And then there's a whole load of stuff in US where some states are legislating which restroom trans people should use.
What are the issues affecting deaf and/or blind people that are not being reported?
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